Hell Question

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
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Re: Hell Question

#16

Post by J.Davis » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:32 am

there is not literal fire and no eternal physical agony as that would not tie in with a loving God in my opinion.
A loving God?

Yes, God is love, the greatest love in existence. I believe God’s wrath will abide with the unsaved partly due to the love he has for the unsaved (and for several technical reasons as well as the choices of the unsaved).

God loves his creation! He came to earth to save us, he planned, created and sacrificed. He gave everything that was good and perfect in existence. He endured all the pain, torment, humiliation and suffering brought on by the very ones he loved and wanted to save more than anything. He was spit on, mocked, abused and laughed at…then hung on a cross to die. Yes, he is a God of love and I am sure he would do it all again if he had to. His suffering was great. But there is something that hurts Much more than physical pain..

Great love creates GREAT angry when it is abused, trampled on, betrayed and played with….What happens when you break the heart of a being that Loves you more than you can ever imagine, the greatest love in existence, a love that is endless?

His creation knows he is God Romans. 1:20 , we know of his love but the unsaved loved Satan more. They lust after Satan’s deceitful beauty and submit to his will. They gave him all that God desired from them…They knew the Father was God but chose Satan instead…..

On the day of judgment, the unsaved will hate God. God can not lie to himself or he will sin, no second chances because he knows the truth, they do not love him.

He loved the unsaved enough to experience great suffering and death…..Now they stand before Him…His creation, Satan’s prize, used to torment God…..He can never save them!

It’s to late now…I wanted to save you, I loved you….I would have given you everything, he only wanted to use you!

The situation is hopeless…..The anger created by His immeasurable Love begins to swell…..

You want Satan?! Fine, but he BURNS! Go be with him…..

The anger generated by a perfect heart, broken from the hatred of his beloved and Satan’s evil grin must be beyond measure…

On top of this you have the endless list of crimes against God and the punishment given because of the effects (<-this could be very great) of those crimes etc, plus (as I said) all the technical stuff. I’m sure it’s MUCH worse than I make it sound. But given the character of God, the context in which the scriptures about hell are used, various biblical elements and my gut feeling. I do believe that there will be real fire in hell just as the scriptures in my last post (and many others) describe it. And just as the scriptures say, the punishment will be eternal…just as Gods gift for the saved will be eternal. And his wrath will be great.

You know, God the Father is not human, Jesus is Gods human representative and the unsaved do not know him (and they hate him). So what happens if one can not get Jesus to represent them in the presence of God the Father? There is but one way He forgives sins. He requires a sacrifice…Revelation 14:9,10,11 (sounds like he gets one). God may have to forgive in order to preserve his perfect heart, or because of his own laws….

In any case, I take responsibility for what I have said and I have no fear of hell at all. I am certain that God would never send me there so no matter how bad it is, I am not concerned for myself. But I do fear God, in the way a child would fear his Father.

You guys make sure you can say the same concerning what you say…You do not want to be in anyway responsible for anyone going to hell or answer to God for it, even if we are saved, It will not be pleasant (not saying he will send the saved to hell, but I would not want him angry at me concerning this).
Last edited by J.Davis on Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:07 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Hell Question

#17

Post by J.Davis » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:36 am

Hi humblesmurph.

I believe hell is extremely, unimaginably bad….

I only posted in this thread because I felt you were being mislead. There are only but so many reasons for people to care about the nature of hell. I just don’t want you to think that, “maybe it is not so bad”. Or that you can take it in exchange for living a life without what you may feel are the overbearing chains of Christianity. Jesus tells us in many ways to avoid hell at all cost! He would not say that if he thought that any man could take it..

Humblesmurph, there is no need to compromise. Go with Jesus, I love him more than anything. Don’t think that God said to give up some of the things that you may want to do for any other reason than him knowing best and showing you a better way, because he loves you. He does not expect perfection, just your best effort. Christianity is not always easy (it will get really difficult sometime) but if you stay close to God and follow his guidance, you will see that it is more than worth it.

I highly recommend Jesus Humblesmurph! And we will be here to help you…
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Re: Hell Question

#18

Post by B. W. » Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:22 am

J.Davis wrote:Yes, God is love, the greatest love in existence. I believe God’s wrath will abide with the unsaved partly due to the love he has for the unsaved (and for several technical reasons as well as the choices of the unsaved).

God loves his creation! He came to earth to save us, he planned, created and sacrificed. He gave everything that was good and perfect in existence. He endured all the pain, torment, humiliation and suffering brought on by the very ones he loved and wanted to save more than anything. He was spit on, mocked, abused and laughed at…then hung on a cross to die. Yes, he is a God of love and I am sure he would do it all again if he had to. His suffering was great. But there is something that hurts Much more than physical pain..

Great love creates GREAT angry when it is abused, trampled on, betrayed and played with….What happens when you break the heart of a being that Loves you more than you can ever imagine, the greatest love in existence, a love that is endless?

His creation knows he is God Romans. 1:20 , we know of his love but the unsaved loved Satan more. They lust after Satan’s deceitful beauty and submit to his will. They gave him all that God desired from them…They knew the Father was God but chose Satan instead…..

On the day of judgment, the unsaved will hate God. God can not lie to himself or he will sin, no second chances because he knows the truth, they do not love him.

He loved the unsaved enough to experience great suffering and death…..Now they stand before Him…His creation, Satan’s prize, used to torment God…..He can never save them!

It’s to late now…I wanted to save you, I loved you….I would have given you everything, he only wanted to use you!

The situation is hopeless…..The anger created by His immeasurable Love begins to swell…..

You want Satan?! Fine, but he BURNS! Go be with him…..

The anger generated by a perfect heart, broken from the hatred of his beloved and Satan’s evil grin must be beyond measure…

On top of this you have the endless list of crimes against God and the punishment given because of the effects (<-this could be very great) of those crimes etc, plus (as I said) all the technical stuff. I’m sure it’s MUCH worse than I make it sound. But given the character of God, the context in which the scriptures about hell are used, various biblical elements and my gut feeling. I do believe that there will be real fire in hell just as the scriptures in my last post (and many others) describe it. And just as the scriptures say, the punishment will be eternal…just as Gods gift for the saved will be eternal. And his wrath will be great.

You know, God the Father is not human, Jesus is Gods human representative and the unsaved do not know him (and they hate him). So what happens if one can not get Jesus to represent them in the presence of God the Father? There is but one way He forgives sins. He requires a sacrifice…Revelation 14:9,10,11 (sounds like he gets one). God may have to forgive in order to preserve his perfect heart, or because of his own laws….

In any case, I take responsibility for what I have said and I have no fear of hell at all. I am certain that God would never send me there so no matter how bad it is, I am not concerned for myself. But I do fear God, in the way a child would fear his Father.

You guys make sure you can say the same concerning what you say…You do not want to be in anyway responsible for anyone going to hell or answer to God for it, even if we are saved, It will not be pleasant (not saying he will send the saved to hell, but I would not want him angry at me concerning this).
Very Good Post J.Davis! Let me quote you again and then add from your comment.

"Great love creates GREAT angry when it is abused, trampled on, betrayed and played with….What happens when you break the heart of a being that Loves you more than you can ever imagine, the greatest love in existence, a love that is endless?", JDavis

Add to this the fact that sin uses God's own moral standards against God to entrap God to act unjustly that is the nature of sin. Use the system against itself is another way to put it. Let me post a older writing of mine slightly re-edited for this topic:

God is a God of the living, not a God of the non-being. His moral nature produces life, his love grant’s authority and intellectual reasoning to govern this authority to whom he wants too. If such stray, love honors the gift of life and intelligence letting such a chance to rebel. If this chance is denied, then God cannot be truly all powerful, and absolutely unable to act justly, lovingly, or all powerfully able to work thru all things.

To extinguish such into a non-being state is contrary to God’s nature. Sin seeks to temp God act contrary to his own character and nature – using God’s own moral standards against God by using the system against itself – thus proving God unable live up to his own name – and overthrow God.

The doctrines of annihilationism in all it many forums do just that, tempt God to act contrary to himself. People ask, how could the devil of old get away with rebelling against God? The answer is simple and is conveyed through his servants writings – use your opponent’s morals against themselves – make them live up to their own standards.

Look how Saul Alinsky puts it in his 1972 book Rules for Radicals (He also credits Lucifer in this book): "Make the enemy live up to their (sic) own book of rules,"
Quoted Link Below
Alinsky wrote in his 1972 book Rules for Radicals. When pressed to honor every word of every law and statute, every Judaeo-Christian moral tenet, and every implicit promise of the liberal social contract, human agencies inevitably fall short. The system's failure to "live up" to its rule book can then be used to discredit it altogether, and to replace the capitalist "rule book" with a socialist one
Now apply this line of strategy against God, knowing that although God could annihilate into non-being, God will not because to do so would cause God to act unjustly and against his own Character. That is how The old Devil did this - got away with rebellion. Gaming the system. Trying to trick God by pitting God's own character against Himself in order to overthrow God. The devil will fail as God's wisdom and ability is greater than all any being can truly fathom.

Problem is, we were designed mortal beings. We view death as finality. God has the power to take mortal life but this does not mean he extinguishes the spiritual life of a mortal being. A Mortal being has a spiritual part that lives beyond the grave (Note Genesis 1:26-28, Ecclesiastes 3:11, 14 and Psalms 119:89-90, Isaiah 59:18). Therefore when, God slays the wicked, he ushers them into judgment knowing that they are eternally corrupt proven by their own denial and total rejection of the change God offered to redeem so one does not have to be banished away forever (Note the 2 Samuel 14:14 principle)

In perfect justice, with no violation to the true spiritual life he gives, no violation to anything he gave or pledged to a mortal being, foreknowing one used these gifts and pledges proven in this life to entrap God to live up to God’s own standards, God made a place of eternal recompense where such will reside forever, where devils torment, various typologies of flames abound, exposing the true nature of sin a person chose. It is no wonder Jesus wept in the Garden for the World…

This is why the doctrines of annihilation are so vile and deceptive. These seek to make God act contrary to himself, his love and his justice. How - By using principles of God’s own moral standards against himself. Sadly, proponents of these doctrines cannot see what they are doing and how they are being manipulated by the true foe to do so but instead are being lead to believe they are just in doing so. To do so as annihilationist think would then cause God to become a God of the Dead (non-existing ones) thus no long can he live up to his name – The Living God!

(Isaiah 25:1 - Isaiah 55:11 - Isaiah 46:10 – Psalms 89:8)

Above is by me quoted in part:

B. W. Melvin
Selected Works
Copyright 2009
Prior Work:
A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion
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Re: Hell Question

#19

Post by humblesmurph » Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:19 am

J.Davis wrote:Hi humblesmurph.

I believe hell is extremely, unimaginably bad….

I only posted in this thread because I felt you were being mislead. There are only but so many reasons for people to care about the nature of hell. I just don’t want you to think that, “maybe it is not so bad”. Or that you can take it in exchange for living a life without what you may feel are the overbearing chains of Christianity. Jesus tells us in many ways to avoid hell at all cost! He would not say that if he thought that any man could take it..

Humblesmurph, there is no need to compromise. Go with Jesus, I love him more than anything. Don’t think that God said to give up some of the things that you may want to do for any other reason than him knowing best and showing you a better way, because he loves you. He does not expect perfection, just your best effort. Christianity is not always easy (it will get really difficult sometime) but if you stay close to God and follow his guidance, you will see that it is more than worth it.

I highly recommend Jesus Humblesmurph! And we will be here to help you…
I have no doubt that Hell is an awful place, nobody has said anything to make me believe that Hell is somehow bearable. I have no problems adhering to the rules of Christianity as I understand them. I've been described by Christian friends as very Christian like. I just don't believe. It's not a conscious decision based on me wanting to live a hedonistic lifestyle.

Regarding Hell, it's not a thing Christians really need to worry about because you believe you aren't going there. It's not a place non-Christians need to worry about because we believe it doesn't exist.

All that is beside the point of this thread. I just didn't want to mislead you into thinking I was searching for something besides descriptions of Hell. Your answers to me have been useful. Lurkers might find this discussion useful for other reasons.

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Re: Hell Question

#20

Post by J.Davis » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:37 pm

Hi humblesmurph!

I completely respect that…I am always happy to help when I can.
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Re: Hell Question

#21

Post by J.Davis » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:42 pm

Hi B.W…Excellent post!

That would be all the technical stuff I was talking about.

I actually wrote something similar..(not a book, just for this forum and someone who asked me about hell). I called it equal moral exchange. That was the best way I could describe it because I had never heard anyone teach on it.

Amazing! I feel it must be true given that God gave the same conclusion to another child of his…

I am a musician, I deal with matters of the heart... It seems you are one of Gods brains. You convey God’s message with razor like precision, so that it cuts holes in logic which seeks to imprison His creation…You do awesome work for him brother..

I love this place...You guys are a Amazing!
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Re: Hell Question

#22

Post by B. W. » Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:42 pm

J.Davis wrote:Hi B.W…Excellent post!

That would be all the technical stuff I was talking about.

I actually wrote something similar..(not a book, just for this forum and someone who asked me about hell). I called it equal moral exchange. That was the best way I could describe it because I had never heard anyone teach on it.

Amazing! I feel it must be true given that God gave the same conclusion to another child of his…

I am a musician, I deal with matters of the heart... It seems you are one of Gods brains. You convey God’s message with razor like precision, so that it cuts holes in logic which seeks to imprison His creation…You do awesome work for him brother..

I love this place...You guys are a Amazing!
Thank you J Davis, for the kind words. You might want to look at Amazon Book link below: that’s why I say what I stated. Something people will learn about someday but for me by God's grace alone given me several opportunities to express what I learned by experience many years ago. Pardon me for sounding way out there: If you heard this equal moral exchange as you put it regarding what I wrote, it was by the Holy Spirit. It is in the bible, right there within its pages. It is not taught much and rarely heard these days.

Amazon Book Link

I am also a musician, a guitarist, play rhythm and some lead. Currently play acoustic with the music pastor of the church I attend. We formed a Christian duet so to speak. We write are own music. There is something about music that one hears within, then able to play it, write lyrics, music from it that helps a person in one's personal walk with the Lord.

Hearing the notes, well, this will sound strange for many reading this - hearing the notes for a praising the Lord song is almost prophetic in a way because it helps you to reach out in faith to grab the very notes you hear, much like the still quiet voice of God, then convey it. Since you are musically inclined I think you might understand what I mean as you stated about the razor like precision -in matters of the heart .

so what instrument do you play?
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Re: Hell Question

#23

Post by J.Davis » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:19 am

Hi B.W!
You might want to look at Amazon Book link below: that’s why I say what I stated.
I hear you…(smile)…I did not misunderstand your sincerity B.W (If I read that right). I was sure you had the same willingness to help that I always see when you post. I am just really excited about what I’m learning and love sharing as well as just being really happy to see someone else say what I said. Now if there is a chance that I’m wrong, I will just point the finger at you and tell God that you said it first…LOL…Joking! But it is nice to get confirmation. And I have read enough of your post to know that your writings are inspired by God.

I am really interested in reading your book! I have never experienced hell before (I’m fine without it…LOL). But what an awesome gift God gave you. To know 100% fact about hell, wow, that is a huge responsibility, and the accountability, he must trust you a lot. Very cool to be chosen for such a thing..

This is the post where I wrote that equal moral exchange was a Law and suggested that it was related to being sent to hell.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 9&start=15

You basically sum up my whole post with this…
Add to this the fact that sin uses God's own moral standards against God to entrap God to act unjustly that is the nature of sin. Use the system against itself is another way to put it.


God was clear concerning the fact that moral balance was a Law. But it took some guidance for me to understand that it could apply to God and that in order for God to keep his law, he would have to give the unsaved (according to the Fathers Law, because they do not have the amendments Jesus made\a human God) the pain they gave Him (the effects of sin without sinning\hell). Even if he was not upset at all about the matter, according to His Law, He must torment them for every last sin, and return equal pain. Hell is just a huge legal technicality that must be implemented, for a host of factors. It’s crazy, and perfect and God is amazing! It’s required punishment, not God’s desired punishment. He even states that here. Ezekiel 33:11 The bible is completely mind numbing, it’s beyond genius. But it seems that we do have to go through God’s boot camp to grasp much of it. And I am sure I still have a long way to go to understand it all but I am loving the journey!

A fellow musician!! I feel the bond..(Smile)! Awesome, I play piano mostly. I have been playing for most of my life. I can pretty much play anything, I do my best for God. He loves music and I love playing it for him. I may not have been to hell (It will never happen..lol) but I do love the unique musical gifts he gave me. I also write songs as well as play music in general. God is amazing and he is God so I will be the best there is for him, he deserves that. Well, someone has to be, so I choose me...LOL.

I completely understand you when you say…
hearing the notes for a praising the Lord song is almost prophetic in a way because it helps you to reach out in faith to grab the very notes you hear, much like the still quiet voice of God, then convey it
.

Yes, that is a perfect description. And there are greater and greater levels. Music can literally be felt. I don’t mean like the little fuzzy or chilling feeling you get form some songs. I mean literal, awesome, holy spirit powered force. I love it!! I think it must be how music feels in heaven (or close), I am addicted to Gods presence…

I could talk about God all day…Thanks for the link B.W! I look forward to reading your book.
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Re: Hell Question

#24

Post by B. W. » Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:23 am

J.Davis wrote:...This is the post where I wrote that equal moral exchange was a Law and suggested that it was related to being sent to hell.
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 9&start=15
You basically sum up my whole post with this…
Add to this the fact that sin uses God's own moral standards against God to entrap God to act unjustly that is the nature of sin. Use the system against itself is another way to put it.


God was clear concerning the fact that moral balance was a Law. But it took some guidance for me to understand that it could apply to God and that in order for God to keep his law, he would have to give the unsaved (according to the Fathers Law, because they do not have the amendments Jesus made\a human God) the pain they gave Him (the effects of sin without sinning\hell). Even if he was not upset at all about the matter, according to His Law, He must torment them for every last sin, and return equal pain. Hell is just a huge legal technicality that must be implemented, for a host of factors. It’s crazy, and perfect and God is amazing! It’s required punishment, not God’s desired punishment. He even states that here. Ezekiel 33:11 The bible is completely mind numbing, it’s beyond genius. But it seems that we do have to go through God’s boot camp to grasp much of it. And I am sure I still have a long way to go to understand it all but I am loving the journey!
You are on your way to understanding. What I suggest is for you to look into the bible at all bible verses talking points that describe God's character first then go deeper and connect the dots of scripture how God proves He is what He says He is against all attempts made to entrap God to act contrary to himself. Through the process of discovery you will sort thru error and find truth by being able to refine your moral exchange position by what you discover about God’s character and nature as revealed in the bible - bible boot camp - that's right!

You might even begin to see why the Devil tempted Christ in the wilderness in the way he did and in the order he did as well too. Jesus’ answers will make more sense too.
J.Davis wrote:A fellow musician!! I feel the bond..(Smile)! Awesome, I play piano mostly. I have been playing for most of my life. I can pretty much play anything, I do my best for God. He loves music and I love playing it for him. I may not have been to hell (It will never happen..lol) but I do love the unique musical gifts he gave me. I also write songs as well as play music in general. God is amazing and he is God so I will be the best there is for him, he deserves that. Well, someone has to be, so I choose me...LOL.

I completely understand you when you say…
hearing the notes for a praising the Lord song is almost prophetic in a way because it helps you to reach out in faith to grab the very notes you hear, much like the still quiet voice of God, then convey it
.

Yes, that is a perfect description. And there are greater and greater levels. Music can literally be felt. I don’t mean like the little fuzzy or chilling feeling you get form some songs. I mean literal, awesome, holy spirit powered force. I love it!! I think it must be how music feels in heaven (or close), I am addicted to Gods presence…
Yes, that's it. Music from Heaven to earth to awaken within us many things in that omni-personal way of God! It is good to hear that you can hear it and perfrom it. That is a gift from God. This opens the ears to hear God...
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Re: Hell Question

#25

Post by J.Davis » Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:02 pm

B. W. wrote:You are on your way to understanding. What I suggest is for you to look into the bible at all bible verses talking points that describe God's character first then go deeper and connect the dots of scripture how God proves He is what He says He is against all attempts made to entrap God to act contrary to himself. Through the process of discovery you will sort thru error and find truth by being able to refine your moral exchange position by what you discover about God’s character and nature as revealed in the bible - bible boot camp - that's right!

You might even begin to see why the Devil tempted Christ in the wilderness in the way he did and in the order he did as well too. Jesus’ answers will make more sense too.
Hi B.W!

I am a bit lost in what you say. I try my best to be humble, despite my joking. I am always open to the correction of Gods servants. What did I get wrong? I take what I tell people extremely serious as I know how God loves them. I would much rather you tell me so that I can make immediate corrections. Logically speaking , the end result can not be different from how you believe, given your statement.
B. W. wrote:Add to this the fact that sin uses God's own moral standards against God to entrap God to act unjustly that is the nature of sin. Use the system against itself is another way to put it.
No matter how we slice it or dice it, Gods Law being used against himself means that the unsaved must go to hell and be tormented. That was my overall point, but if I error in details I sincerely wish to correct them as soon as possible. I tell many people I love the things I receive, also....by posting, many people God loves. It’s driving me Nuts B.W...Tell me! Please...LOL. I do not believe I suggested that anything (not possible) would make God act out of his character, I would never say, that’s impossible, he’s God and perfect and will always act as the God he says he is. My entire life has been dedicated to knowing who God is. At first that meant deciphering metaphors but I am close to him now, I know much of his character. But it is possible I may have an error concerning details of scripture or that we have a misunderstanding concerning word usage as our styles are completely different.

I am a real easy guy to get along with and I love Gods people. I am not sure if you read me how I intend. But know that I talk to you with much respect B.W..

You said: bible boot camp. I wrote: God’s boot camp. I was talking of the things God teaches us beyond the bible, through the holy spirit and trials in our life. It was to say that you understand as you do because of his guidance. At some boot camps they put you through hell. It seemed a fitting metaphor given your walk with God (You have really been to hell...lol). But I also understand because I have been through my own hell (I talk of the trials in my life, not literally).

Ok, the anticipation is more than I can take...I love learning of God and hate that I get anything wrong. I try my best to get things as perfect as I can for him. What did I miss? y@-)

Thank-you B.W.
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Re: Hell Question

#26

Post by B. W. » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:13 pm

J.Davis wrote:Hi B.W!

I am a bit lost in what you say. I try my best to be humble, despite my joking. I am always open to the correction of Gods servants. What did I get wrong? I take what I tell people extremely serious as I know how God loves them. I would much rather you tell me so that I can make immediate corrections. Logically speaking , the end result can not be different from how you believe, given your statement.
I was giving you a clue, that's all, to go further and uncover more about moral exchange process, not that you are wrong or correcting you. There is much more and since you grasp a few things, you should do well in exploring. It is by exploring who God is as revealed in the bible that reveals his nature and character in ways that help us come into an improving understanding of him and his ways. Always ask questions in prayer and test answers by how they logically fit into God's character and nature. One question will lead to another and another, then you begin to see. When the answers cannot be logically refuted based on God charater and nature things open up in ways that will awe you more and more. It (this) will cause you to love God more and more. I do not want to ruin the search for you by making it too easy ;)

So begin with the bases of your comments about the moral exchange and we'll look together at how these connect to God's character and go from there.

So for example let's begin if you like with your first sentence...
J.Davis wrote:....God was clear concerning the fact that moral balance was a Law...
Begin the search with a question: Where in the bible does it describe God able to balance things out, weigh all things... etc... What does moral balance prove?

As for bible boot camp, I meant God's boot camp but put down bible boot camp instead but however the two do go together nevertheless :)
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Re: Hell Question

#27

Post by J.Davis » Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:00 pm

Hi B.W!
B. W. wrote:I do not want to ruin the search for you by making it too easy ;)

As for bible boot camp, I meant God's boot camp but put down bible boot camp instead but however the two do go together nevertheless :)
You know B.W…You are one of my favorites here…Don’t make me angry, you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry…LOL! :) :-P

I am confident in what I post, I just wanted to know if you felt that anything was wrong with the things I had already posted cornering my equal moral exchange post. I do not know everything concerning how moral laws work but I have not asked either. But when I post, my felling that I am right (for many reasons) is at least in the ninetieth percentile. If not, I do not post. But I know that things can always be improved and I thank-you for your encouragement.

Despite that…I love talking and figuring things out so….
B. W. wrote:Begin the search with a question: Where in the bible does it describe God able to balance things out, weigh all things... etc...What does moral balance prove?
Well, only because you asked so nicely ;-)

Everything that is said after this point is directed at everyone, I use examples and say the word you etc. So not directed at you B.W but I would like to hear your feedback.

The bible does not say that God will balance things out concerning our choices on earth, we are free. It does say that we will be judged for everything we did on earth and account for it. Ezekiel 7:3,4,9 Matthew 7:1-2 Romans 12:19 and many other scriptures.

God is clear that he will get even (for many reasons, not just his feelings). But it also says that God is slow to anger and longsuffering Joel 2:13 so don’t any (unsaved/young in Christ) think that He has a hair-trigger. Just make sure that things are right when you see him.

But God did write his Law in our heart. Romans 2:14, 15 2 Corinthians 3:3 Psalm 40:8

As Paul said, Romans 2:15

We have Gods laws in our heart, we all know if we are wrong and we will be without excuses. We can say what we want and play all the games we want on earth. But God sees the heart of man. On judgment day, God will point out an event, our heart will generate an emotion…guilt, anger, joy, lust, fear, etc. And attached to our emotions will be either pain or pleasure depending on what is right concerning Gods Law as it relates to the event. And the person being judged will know the 100% truth, as well God. We will deserve either pain or pleasure according to our own heart. Of coarse, Jesus will excuse the sins of those that love him. And as Paul said, this same thing works with those who have not heard the gospel, God takes that into account. So Jesus will excuse all who loved his way and did what he would have done. Their heart will either be closer to God’s heart or Satan‘s, it can be weighed with 100% certainty. So that we all know what we deserve.

Of coarse, some things will be without excuse. Jesus has emotions as well. If you know of him and who he is but do not want him then he will leave you to be Judged by the Law without his amendments.

The moral Laws prove that God is right…lol…at least when we are judged.

I feel that moral laws work much like the physical laws. Here is an example of what I mean..

1.You commit an immoral act against me.

2.This generates an angry force (from me) against you.

3.You feel remorse and accept my anger as a greater (deserved) force, making us morally unequal.

4.Now I morally push you around (take advantage of your guilt because of the pain you caused me).

5.I generate sufficient immorality to change the magnitude of our equality, making us morally equal again.

6.Now we will either morally push each other (you did it too) or morally pull each other (I’ve done the same for you/humans) and remain morally equal.

Eat your heart out Newton, God wrote the concept in mans heart first. ;-)

There are also many other scenarios…Such as if you did not feel remorse and immorally pushed back, two or more immoral forces against one etc.

In any case, a greater force (I did not say better) can push a lesser force. Anger will push guilt and pride will push humility. If something does not stop them…Anger will always push guilt and pride will always push humility, what can match their force so that they do not destroy everything in their path forever?

Anger will stop them, pride will stop them…God…will stop them.

Do not get used to using the things God said to stay away from our it will become your nature. And the more you use them the stronger they become, causing God more and more pain. He will give that pain back so that he may have comfort for immoral acts against him, so that his pain will stop…All will be equal.

We are all faced with immoral forces, God will judge our reaction.
Huh, a beam in my eye? No, you're mistaken. Let's just say that this patch keeps things....interesting.

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Re: Hell Question

#28

Post by B. W. » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:47 am

Excellent answer JDavis - your right on the mark!

Now add to what you wrote these verses and how the word numbered in Strong’s 4339 is used denoting equity (look up this word's meaning):

Psalms 96:10, 13, Psalms 9:8, Proverbs 2:6, 7, 8, 9 (verse 9), Isaiah 45:19 (4339 translated as uprightly in most text)

Now look at Job 37:23 and how several translations translate this difficult passage with the usage of the word oppress, violate, violence, no wrong, does not pervert:

(NKJV) As for the Almighty, we cannot find Him; He is excellent in power, In judgment and abundant justice; He does not oppress.

(ESV) The Almighty--we cannot find him; he is great in power; justice and abundant righteousness he will not violate.

(NASB) "The Almighty--we cannot find Him; He is exalted in power and He will not do violence to justice and abundant righteousness.

(JPS) The Almighty, whom we cannot find out, is excellent in power, yet to judgment and plenteous justice He doeth no violence.

(BBE) There is no searching out of the Ruler of all: his strength and his judging are great; he is full of righteousness, doing no wrong.

(CJB) Shaddai, whom we cannot find, whose power is immense, in his great righteousness does not pervert justice
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This states that God will never afflict, violate, oppress, pervert justice. To be able to do this means the Lord does so with a balanced method of equity. Of such manner way beyond what we can fully grasp in its entirety. He alone is the moral standard that defines what Good is. It was good and just to place a moral compass within the heart. Placing such grants humanity free moral agency to misuse, misapply, or correctly use this compass.

God shows no partiality (Job 37:24 note NKJV). To deny the ability to misuse this compass would not be just as it would prove God partial. Thus, any sin found within the creature would be the creatures own doing, not God's. God may have made the creature but the sin is the creatures own doing. A Sinning creature cannot save itself. Sin must be dealt with by God in such manner that does not contradict God's own character and nature. (more on this later...)

Redemption would be God's own work involving restoration of a new heart done in a simple, wise, manner that allows one's own personal moral compass to decide if they want His redemptive work done within their hearts or not. That too is just, proving God true to himself too. To be just, God alone must do the work of redemption of which design tests a person's moral compass fairly.

To be able to never violate justice, means God indeed designed us with a moral compass in order to be just in the fullest sense of justice. This moral compass serves to prove that right and wrong, good and evil do exist. However, human determining what makes these things so becomes a problem due to sin twisting things... (This is a summary, as we continue we'll explore these topics more but for now, just informational talking points).

Next, Deuteronomy 32:4 reveals more about God’s character: "The Rock! His work is perfect, for all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.” NASB

Also read Isaiah 30:18

So adding to what you wrote – what can you derive about God and what is added to the equal moral exchange that you haven't seen?
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Re: Hell Question

#29

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:20 am

What if morality is more a focus upon a perfect person, Christ Jesus, than a perfect system or moral code?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: Hell Question

#30

Post by B. W. » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:00 am

Canuckster1127 wrote:What if morality is more a focus upon a perfect person, Christ Jesus, than a perfect system or moral code?
Right on...

As so stated
B. W. wrote:He alone is the moral standard that defines what Good is
In Genesis 1:26-27 whose image and likeness was humanity created to reflect?

Since only God is perfect in all his ways - then a moral compass would need to be fashioned into the human heart so one could find the true reflection designed to reflect... 2 Peter 1:3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or reject it all together accepting the responsibility for that rejection.

The Goodness of God is manifested first before perfection comes…
Genesis 1:31 – Revelation 21:1

Think about it

y:-?
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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