Hell Question

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
humblesmurph
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Hell Question

#1

Post by humblesmurph » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:40 am

Hello all,

I have a quick question regarding Hell. What I am sure of is that it is awful beyond comprehension and it lasts forever. My Question is: Is it possible that Hell actually does contain flames? I'm sure it doesn't necessarily have to contain flames. The speech describing Hell needn't be literal. I'm just asking if there is something in the Scripture that tells us that there are no flames in Hell.

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Re: Hell Question

#2

Post by BavarianWheels » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:02 pm

humblesmurph wrote:Hello all,

I have a quick question regarding Hell. What I am sure of is that it is awful beyond comprehension and it lasts forever. My Question is: Is it possible that Hell actually does contain flames? I'm sure it doesn't necessarily have to contain flames. The speech describing Hell needn't be literal. I'm just asking if there is something in the Scripture that tells us that there are no flames in Hell.
Two schools of thought:
  • * Hell is real and is of fire that lasts forever and ever, perpetual agony.
    * Hell is real and is of fire of which the effect is everlasting/forever.
    (in other words it only burns as long as there is something TO burn and thus does not last forever)
I hold to the latter.
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Re: Hell Question

#3

Post by humblesmurph » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:18 pm

Thanks Mr Wheels. Nice looking car by the way. When you say that Hell is "of fire" does that mean that it is made of fire or a fire like thing? I ask because I have a friend who insists that there is no fire in Hell. Is this a common view, or are the two schools of thought you describe the only possible interpretation of the Scripture regarding Hell?

Follow up questions. When Christians refer to the Scripture, they are only referring to the New Testament, right? Do Christians even consider the Old Testament to be Gospel?

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Re: Hell Question

#4

Post by BavarianWheels » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:32 pm

humblesmurph wrote:Thanks Mr Wheels. Nice looking car by the way. When you say that Hell is "of fire" does that mean that it is made of fire or a fire like thing? I ask because I have a friend who insists that there is no fire in Hell. Is this a common view, or are the two schools of thought you describe the only possible interpretation of the Scripture regarding Hell?

Follow up questions. When Christians refer to the Scripture, they are only referring to the New Testament, right? Do Christians even consider the Old Testament to be Gospel?
Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure the majority agree that hell will have literal fire as fire literally and figuratively has cleansing properties. Maybe your friend is saying there is no fire in hell right now, which I would agree with. Hell does not exist until the end when Christ returns to this earth to make it new...after the millenium. Again, there are many interpretations of eschatology.

There are some NT only Christians, but those are few. For the most part, all Christians believe in the OT and NT. I know I hold both as equal. The OT points to Christ and the NT makes known Christ came as the OT says. Both have the Gospel, while the NT elaborates on the Gospel more in terms of applying it. The OT has the Gospel all over it...take the book of Ruth for example. I don't think a mention of "Christ" is made, but the whole of the book screams Gospel truth.
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Re: Hell Question

#5

Post by humblesmurph » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:47 pm

No, he isn't saying that Hell doesn't have fire now, he is saying that when I go to Hell, I won't literally burn in fire. It will be infinitely bad and last for forever, but no flames. Your view that Hell doesn't last forever seems unique. Could you point me in the direction of Scripture that supports this? If Hell isn't burning right now are all the souls bound for Hell in Purgatory? Sorry to bombard you with questions and I appreciate your responses.

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Re: Hell Question

#6

Post by RickD » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:12 pm

Revelation 20:14 states that hell(Hades) doesn't last forever. The lake of fire does. Whether the lake of fire is literal, or figurative doesn't really matter, does it? IT'S ETERNAL!!!!!
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Hell Question

#7

Post by humblesmurph » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:29 pm

RickD wrote:Revelation 20:14 states that hell(Hades) doesn't last forever. The lake of fire does. Whether the lake of fire is literal, or figurative doesn't really matter, does it? IT'S ETERNAL!!!!!

:lol: It matters for the sake of the discussion I'm having with him. Side question, the lake of fire lasts forever, but do I last forever in it?

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Re: Hell Question

#8

Post by smiley » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:37 pm

Revelations says that you will be there forever. Still, some don't take this literally because of how full of allegory and symbolism the book is (and there are some earlier biblical texts that use similar phrases Revelation does, "forever and ever" in particular, to figuratively describe the duration of events that have obviously ended).

Even still, there's no doubt that punishment will be eternal in duration for some people. Some just don't equate this to conscious suffering.

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Re: Hell Question

#9

Post by humblesmurph » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:47 pm

Wow, I'm learning a lot. My buddy tells me that Hell isn't punishment. I realize the nature of Hell isn't really all that important. We know it's awful and that we don't want to go there. I'm just curious. Is he just putting me on, or is this a popular view amongst some Christians?

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Re: Hell Question

#10

Post by BavarianWheels » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:54 pm

humblesmurph wrote:No, he isn't saying that Hell doesn't have fire now, he is saying that when I go to Hell, I won't literally burn in fire. It will be infinitely bad and last for forever, but no flames. Your view that Hell doesn't last forever seems unique. Could you point me in the direction of Scripture that supports this? If Hell isn't burning right now are all the souls bound for Hell in Purgatory? Sorry to bombard you with questions and I appreciate your responses.
Sure. The short of it as there is much that I cannot do justice in putting forth. I can find you links though.
  • * John 3:16 - The wages of sin is to perrish/death, not eternal agony. Death is simply death.
    * John 11: - The story of Jesus resurrecting Lazarus from the dead. Many telling points in there. "Lazarus has fallen asleep", "I'm going to wake HIM up", "So he told them plainly, Lazarus is dead." While this doesn't speak exactly on hell, it does speak to where the dead are at death. It's not in heaven, otherwise what sense is there in Jesus raising a saved man, removing him from paradise and injecting him back into a sinful world?
    So the story of Lazarus is a large clue as to where the dead are or where they go at death. They go no where, but "sleep" in the grave to await Christ's return.
    * Revelation 22:12 - Christ is coming and His reward is with Him.
    * 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 - What type of person inherits the kingdom? Imperishable. When does this change take place for both living and the dead?
    * Jude 1:7 - if S&G are and example of hell and hell is forever to burn literally, then why is there not a perpetual fire at the site of S&G? Is this impossible for God, if that be His intention?
    * Jeremiah 7:27 - God speaks of an unquenchable fire to consume all...and leave nothing.
    * Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17 speaks of this same "unquenchable" fire at the time of the end, which some presume to be perpetual and never ending, but we clearly see it is unquenchable in that it cannot be stopped before all it's intended to consume is gone.
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Re: Hell Question

#11

Post by RickD » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:33 pm

humblesmurph wrote:
RickD wrote:Revelation 20:14 states that hell(Hades) doesn't last forever. The lake of fire does. Whether the lake of fire is literal, or figurative doesn't really matter, does it? IT'S ETERNAL!!!!!

:lol: It matters for the sake of the discussion I'm having with him. Side question, the lake of fire lasts forever, but do I last forever in it?
Not if you accept what God did when he died on the cross to atone for the sins of the world. He, being without sin, took sin upon himself. So all who believe on Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Hell Question

#12

Post by J.Davis » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:33 am

Hi humblesmurph!

On the day of judgment….the unsaved will be thrown into a lake of eternal fire, their bodies will never be consumed, and they will live forever, in pain…

And if anyone thinks that God the Father, the God of the old testament, the one that turned a woman to salt, flooded the earth, destroyed cities and armies, caused plagues, killed disobedient servants as well as enemies of his servants etc will not throw his rebellious, beloved creation into hells everlasting unquenchable fire than you are seriously mistaken….

And believe me when I tell you that the unsaved will feel they deserve hell..

No one should feel that they can handle God’s wrath for any reason…period. It’s logical to assume (given what the bible says about moral laws) that some will suffer the default pain of hell times millions…forever!!! God knows what he is doing…The bible says just enough about hell to let us know that we should avoid it but not enough to have us live in guilt from knowing all the details of why we deserve to go there.

And view the things God the Father did in the old testament (killing, flood, plagues etc) from the perspective of a Father. As I said before, death is a human experience, to God, we always exist. Is it not better for a Father to punish a rebellious son, so that the child’s siblings will consider the consequence and avoid unnecessary pain…If not, he will lose all of his children because of their ignorance. Scaring his children straight was all God could do until Jesus came to save them…

God: DO IT…I DARE YOU!!!

LOL….All out of Love…

Don’t see hell as an incentive to get saved. God does not want you to love him because you are afraid or feel you are forced to do it. He warns you of hell because he loves you and it is only fair that you know. What I said above as well as the following scriptures is just so that you can know about hell.

Touching fire and getting burned is a natural result of touching fire. Having sin and going to hell is a natural result of sinning. Knowing Jesus and being saved from hell is a natural result of his Love.

Scriptures…..

Isaiah 33:14 Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
“Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?”

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 14:9-11

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Mark 9:42-44

42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.
43 “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
44 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

A persons worm does not die? It means ones body will never be consumed….

Matthew 13:41-43

41 “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 “Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Huh, a beam in my eye? No, you're mistaken. Let's just say that this patch keeps things....interesting.

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Re: Hell Question

#13

Post by Silvertusk » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:13 am

There are actual other views of what hell is as well.

One is that the it is the outer darkeness where there is complete seperation form God - a place where there is gnashing of teeth. Imagine being seperated from the light for all eternity - that to me would be hell.

Also another view is that Hell is the second death - Oblivion - which is of course eternal punishment.

I am more inclined to beleive that hell is one of the two above and there is not literal fire and no eternal physical agony as that would not tie in with a loving God in my opinion.

SIlvertusk.

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Re: Hell Question

#14

Post by BavarianWheels » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:25 am

Silvertusk wrote:There are actual other views of what hell is as well.

One is that the it is the outer darkeness where there is complete seperation form God - a place where there is gnashing of teeth. Imagine being seperated from the light for all eternity - that to me would be hell.

Also another view is that Hell is the second death - Oblivion - which is of course eternal punishment.

I am more inclined to beleive that hell is one of the two above and there is not literal fire and no eternal physical agony as that would not tie in with a loving God in my opinion.

SIlvertusk.
As the beloved text reads, "the wages of sin is death" ( Romans 6:23 ) It is not perpetual agony. It is not continual burning, but an everlasting judgment. There is no coming back from the second death. (Rev. 2:11, Rev. 20:6, Rev. 20:14, Rev. 21:8)

John 3:16 doesn't tell us there is agony but the unbeliever will perish, die. It's not perpetual torment and pain, but a finite existence in fire from God that consumes all.

I believe as you, Silvertusk. It IS one of those two. I believe the evidence points to the latter.
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Re: Hell Question

#15

Post by B. W. » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:33 am

Interesting comments and discussion!
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