Calvinism vs. Arminianism

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
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bizzt
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#46

Post by bizzt » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:33 am

Allow me to go even Further!
Isa 43-23-25
(Isa 43:23) Thou hast not3808 brought935 me the small cattle7716 of thy burnt offerings;5930 neither3808 hast thou honored3513 me with thy sacrifices.2077 I have not3808 caused thee to serve5647 with an offering,4503 nor3808 wearied3021 thee with incense.3828

(Isa 43:24) Thou hast bought7069 me no3808 sweet cane7070 with money,3701 neither3808 hast thou filled7301 me with the fat2459 of thy sacrifices:2077 but389 thou hast made me to serve5647 with thy sins,2403 thou hast wearied3021 me with thine iniquities.5771

(Isa 43:25) I,595 even I,595 am he1931 that blotteth out4229 thy transgressions6588 for mine own sake,4616 and will not3808 remember2142 thy sins.2403

I bolded the Verse that is most Important! How is a Person Forgiving Sins Glorifying God? It doesn't at all. God is the one who forgives Sins not People!

or

Isa 38:17 Behold,2009 for peace7965 I had great bitterness:4751, 4843 but thou859 hast in love2836 to my soul5315 delivered it from the pit4480, 7845 of corruption:1097 for3588 thou hast cast7993 all3605 my sins2399 behind310 thy back.1460

Sins are only Forgiven by God and Only God!

This is taken from Barnes
The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins that belongs only to God Isa_43:23 but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Spirit to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins. It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned, with a promise that God would confirm all that they taught; that all might have assurance of forgiveness who would comply with those terms; and that those who did not comply should not be forgiven, but that their sins should be retained.

Fortigurn
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#47

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:06 pm

bizzt wrote:Just so I get something Straight you believe in the Doctrine that say a Priest can Absolve you of your sins?
No, not in the least.
Are we not also a Brother in Christ? So was it also true that Lying to us would be considered lying to the Holy Spirit?
I'm not aware that you are one of the 11 disciples to whom Christ personally delegated this authority. Please let me know if I'm wrong.

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#48

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:08 pm

bizzt wrote:I bolded the Verse that is most Important! How is a Person Forgiving Sins Glorifying God? It doesn't at all. God is the one who forgives Sins not People!
Yes, I agree.
Sins are only Forgiven by God and Only God!
Yes, I agree.
This is taken from Barnes
The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins that belongs only to God Isa_43:23 but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Spirit to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins. It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned, with a promise that God would confirm all that they taught; that all might have assurance of forgiveness who would comply with those terms; and that those who did not comply should not be forgiven, but that their sins should be retained.
I usually like Barnes, but here he is trying so hard to keep away from any connotation of Catholic dogma that he backs himself into a corner.

Basically, he acknowledges that the disciples had the authority to say who would and who would not be forgiven, but he tries to word it in such a way as to keep the passage out of the hands of the Catholics. But there's no reason to alter the meaning of the Word just because some people wrest it.

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Turgonian
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#49

Post by Turgonian » Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:31 pm

The Bible says they were "willingly ignorant". In the Greek, this means "be dumb on purpose". (Kent Hovind)

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