Jews and sacrifices

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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CountryBoy
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Jews and sacrifices

Post by CountryBoy »

What do Jews do nowadays as far as sacrifices go? I'm sure the animal rights people would be going nuts if they were still sacrificeing animals to God?

Anybody know how they get around this issue?
Anonymous

Post by Anonymous »

There's no issue to get around whatsoever.

Hosea 14:2-3 Return, Israel, unto the Lord your God, for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take words with you and return to the Lord; say unto Him, 'May You forgive all iniquity and accept good intentions, and let our lips substitute for bulls.

Artscroll Stone Edition Tanach offers a commentary for Hosea 14:3
An essential part of repentence is that one feel remorse for his past failings and sincerely resolve to improve. Thus the penitent begins by begging God to look favorably upon his good intentions and to accept the prayers, confession, and pledges of his lips in place of, and as more worthy than, fatted bulls as offerings, which may look superficially impressive but are lacking inner content.
CountryBoy
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Post by CountryBoy »

So that verse abolishes all blood sacrifices for the Jews?
j316
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Re: Jews and sacrifices

Post by j316 »

CountryBoy wrote:What do Jews do nowadays as far as sacrifices go? I'm sure the animal rights people would be going nuts if they were still sacrificeing animals to God?

Anybody know how they get around this issue?
The loss of the temple in 70AD forced the jews to realign their religious practices, they went to the synagogue expression of judaism. Actually the form of worship in the older catholic and protestant churches is very similar in its introductory part to the post temple jewish rites. It revolves around praise and worship and includes scriptural readings and a sermon/commentary.
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Kurieuo
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Post by Kurieuo »

Hosea 14:1-2—
1O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
2Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

Obviously yours is from the Tanakh, yet it is interesting that you believe God installed a sacrificial system that basically meant nothing.

Kurieuo.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
Anonymous

Post by Anonymous »

Who say's it meant nothing? this should explain what the sacrifices meant and why Jews for the most part don't sacrifice anymore:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msacrifice.html
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Kurieuo
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Post by Kurieuo »

That article is fairly good. It predominantly explains why Jews no longer sacrifice and no longer see a need to, and it also touches upon what the sacrifices were for as primarily set out in Leviticus:

<ul><li>Burnt offerings ('olah) were certain animals or birds that were entirely burnt (except the hide). No portion was eaten.</li>
<li>Grain offerings (min-khah) could be raw or baked into unleavened bread. A token portion was burned on the altar, and the rest was given to the priests for a meal. </li>
<li>Peace offerings (zevakh shelamim) were a sacred meal, with sections of the sacrifice shared by the priest and donors. Only certain fatty portions of the animal were burned on the altar as God's share. The term is better translated as "gift of greetings" or "offering of well-being."</li>
<li>Expiatory sacrifices are what you're asking about. I was going to say that's the "meat of the matter" but thought better of it. They are primarily described in chapters 5 and 6 of Leviticus. The purpose of such sacrifice was to obtain atonement for one's sins and forgiveness from God. They were usually eaten by the priests.</li></ul>
Further on it also makes mention of sin and guilt offerings which required sacrifice.

My question now is if sacrifices were for many things, especially for the atonement of sin, then what changed with God so that they would no longer be required for sin atonement and the many other things they were for? If God is unchanging, then why the change?

Kurieuo.
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Anonymous

Post by Anonymous »

Well, God has put a lot of weight on our side. God is unchanging, but he leaves it up to us to help create and run the world. That is why prayer works, because we request something of God, and he grants it.

Ok the concept of Jesus dying as some kind of sacrifice for all time doesn't really fit the sacrifical system the Jews had. God didn't want the animals to be tortured to death. He prescribed a quick, painless way for them to die, this however doesn't match with the torture of crucifixion.

But really it comes down to what the prophets noted regarding sacrifices and how they don't really take away one's sin's. I don't see how Jesus would be able to take away sin, unless of course you claim he is God and then cause more problems for yourself.

"if God is unchanging, then why the change?"

This question would better apply to the whole God incarnating himself than the sacrifical system, which again wasn't the sole method of sin atonement, prayer also worked.

However, by the same theory of being unchanging, then it would also be a change for God to go from animal sacrifice to human sacrifice.
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bizzt
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Post by bizzt »

Vvart

Answer me these Scriptures... Why are you questioning who the messiah is?

Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: Micah 5:1.

Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10.

Messiah would present himself by riding on an ass: Zechariah 9:9.

Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22.

Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Daniel 9:24-27.

Messiah's life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man's tomb, and resurrection: Isaiah 52:13-53:12.
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bizzt
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Post by bizzt »

vvart wrote:Well, God has put a lot of weight on our side. God is unchanging, but he leaves it up to us to help create and run the world. That is why prayer works, because we request something of God, and he grants it.

Ok the concept of Jesus dying as some kind of sacrifice for all time doesn't really fit the sacrifical system the Jews had. God didn't want the animals to be tortured to death. He prescribed a quick, painless way for them to die, this however doesn't match with the torture of crucifixion.

But really it comes down to what the prophets noted regarding sacrifices and how they don't really take away one's sin's. I don't see how Jesus would be able to take away sin, unless of course you claim he is God and then cause more problems for yourself.

"if God is unchanging, then why the change?"

This question would better apply to the whole God incarnating himself than the sacrifical system, which again wasn't the sole method of sin atonement, prayer also worked.

However, by the same theory of being unchanging, then it would also be a change for God to go from animal sacrifice to human sacrifice.
Here is an article that might help you
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/sacra.html
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Mastermind
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Post by Mastermind »

The significance of Jesus's sacrifice has nothing to do with physical pain. He did it for SOCIAL pain. The total loss of honor in a society that valued it above personal comfort.
Are you threatening me Master Skeptic?
CountryBoy
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Post by CountryBoy »

I
The significance of Jesus's sacrifice has nothing to do with physical pain.
Yeah, I don't think the physical part is any more than the very tiny tip of the iceburg of what suffering Christ did. I know what it is to feel repentant and ashamed and condemned in God's eye's, I've been there for sure on that deal. And although I don't understand all of what He went through on the cross I think He may have had to feel that for the sins of the world. That, my friend, would have been a huge deal.

I guess that's a whole nuther discussion. What do you think Christ went through spiritually on the cross.
Anonymous

Post by Anonymous »

Bizzt lol none of those are messianic prophecies. That is what sickens me about Christianity, they pervert Jewish scripture and then say the Jews are "blind" or "too stupid to understand". Now Mastermind who can't seem to read, will say that Micah is saying the Messiah is to be born in Bethlehem when Micah is talking about someone other than the Messiah who is to crush the Assyrians. It's simple a matter of reading and since the Assyrian's have been crushed many years before Jesus and Jesus had nothing to do with Assyria, we can simple throw that one out.

Now many of the rest of those "messianic prophecies" you pointed out can simple be solved by reading everything the prophet was saying and really checking to make sure it has anything to do with the Messiah. Frankly you can take the Tanach and take little bits from various parts and say any random person off the street is the messiah, i've actually seen it done.
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bizzt
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Post by bizzt »

vvart wrote:Bizzt lol none of those are messianic prophecies. That is what sickens me about Christianity, they pervert Jewish scripture and then say the Jews are "blind" or "too stupid to understand". Now Mastermind who can't seem to read, will say that Micah is saying the Messiah is to be born in Bethlehem when Micah is talking about someone other than the Messiah who is to crush the Assyrians. It's simple a matter of reading and since the Assyrian's have been crushed many years before Jesus and Jesus had nothing to do with Assyria, we can simple throw that one out.

Now many of the rest of those "messianic prophecies" you pointed out can simple be solved by reading everything the prophet was saying and really checking to make sure it has anything to do with the Messiah. Frankly you can take the Tanach and take little bits from various parts and say any random person off the street is the messiah, i've actually seen it done.
Wow None of them are Vvart. I must be totally Blind here and have no experience in my Faith!! :roll: Tell me then what are Prophecies for the Messiah. What do Jewish people believe that the Messiah will be? Is there a Messiah? Daniel and his prophecies were they not correct?

Do you believe in Promises? Psalm 89 20-29. Clearly a Promise to David for Generations to Come. We know that the Messiah firstly comes from the Line of David. and in verses 30-37
Gripping here "That his line will continue forever and his throne endure before me like the sun, it will be established forever like the moon, and faithful witness in the sky."

Isaiah Frequently talks about the Davidic Covenant

9:6-7 are one of those Examples
Jeremiah 23:5-8 is yet another one of those examples
Yet Another Promise Jer 33:14-17
Ezekial Added his word as well
Ezek 37:21-28
Yet another Prophecy in Amos 9:11
Rev 19:5 tells us that Messiah will rule with Absolute Authority From the Throne of David Jer 23:5

Daniel 9:24-27. Messiah must come BEFORE the Temple is Destroyed

Come on Vvart there are tons of Prophecies for the Messiah. You know that just as much as I do and the Same Prophecies are held by both Jew and Christian! It tells us when the Messiah was supposed to be here on the Earth!
Anonymous

Post by Anonymous »

Do you really want me to go over each one and demonstrate without interpreting anything how its not talking about Jesus and at times not even talking about the messiah?. This has nothing to do with faith, its a matter of actually going in and analyzing these things.
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