Jesus was the angel Michael!

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:08 pm

I disagree entirely with soul sleep. For starters you have to change Jesus' statement on the cross, so immediately you are starting to walk on thin ice, splitting hairs in interpretation.

And Samuel's spirit was contacted after he died, right? And where did Elijah go, when he was taken alive. And Revelations has various descriptions of heaven that are hardly empty.

And on top of all that, we have a good many first hand experiences of those who've died, been in the precense of the Lord, and then come back. There are simply too many for me not to lend some credibility to.

As for why Jesus likens being dead to sleeping makes sense to me. Your consciousness is detached from your body (in most cases). In the same way that we dream and experience not through physical means, so too could our consciousness be removed from our bodies at death and taken to heaven.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:49 pm

It is human nature to live up to a challenge, or a boast, or anything. That's human nature. Jesus had human nature. Satan knew that. Thus, Satan was playing on Jesus's human nature to boast that He was the son of God. Jesus would be gaining pride by proving to a non-believer that He is the Son of God. Granted Jesus didn't do it, but that's irrelevant, the point is what Satan wanted Him to do.

I guess then that this remains a matter of interpretation and we won't convince each other we are wrong.

Jesus was always excepting of God's will. He was just asking God to change His will. Notice that in the passages He says "Oh Father, if it be your will...", so He was never stating that God didn't know best.

BTW, you have yet to explain how that verse is possibly reflecting His modesty.

Quite simply, it explains his modesty because he states it is his Father's will. Your interpretation would mean that for Jesus to ask God to change His will, it would mean that:

A) Jesus wasn't familiar with the old testament and God's "I do not change" stetement.
b) Jesus would be questioning God's decision, which is dangerously close to sin.

If it's not a place of unconsciousness, then what is it? Also, if we aren't unconscious after death, why would Jesus liken death to sleeping?

Are you talking about that little girl? He wasn't linking death to sleeping, He simply told them that she wasn't dead because He was going to bring her back, and thus, by all standards, she WAS asleep.

Yes, I know it. It is a parable, a story. It never happened. Jesus told it to teach a lesson, not to give record of a good man getting rewarded and a bad man getting tortured. The story isn't even that realistic.

I know it was a parable, but it wouldn't make sense to anybody if it didn't relate to something they understood. I could tell you a parable about the world in the video game I'm making and you wouldn't understand a thing if you aren't familiar with that particular world. It's like Jesus telling a parable about world war two to them.

Why would the rich man ask for a drop of water to soothe his torment? It would take a lot more than single drop of water to ease the suffering of the flames.

A drop of water can seem like a gift from God Himself if you're thirsty.

Also, what kind of paradise would it be if you could look over and see people getting tormented?

What does it matter? It's not like you have a choice but to be happy in paradise. It's part of what it is.

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:38 pm

Mastermind wrote:
Jesus was always excepting of God's will. He was just asking God to change His will. Notice that in the passages He says "Oh Father, if it be your will...", so He was never stating that God didn't know best.

BTW, you have yet to explain how that verse is possibly reflecting His modesty.
Quite simply, it explains his modesty because he states it is his Father's will.

But He asks for the "cup to pass from Him". Also, Jesus is equal to the Father, according to you, He is God.

If it's not a place of unconsciousness, then what is it? Also, if we aren't unconscious after death, why would Jesus liken death to sleeping?
Are you talking about that little girl? He wasn't linking death to sleeping, He simply told them that she wasn't dead because He was going to bring her back, and thus, by all standards, she WAS asleep.

Jesus brought people from dead. DEAD. Meaning, they were dead as a doorknob, until Jesus brought them back. They were no less dead than any other dead man.

I know it was a parable, but it wouldn't make sense to anybody if it didn't relate to something they understood. I could tell you a parable about the world in the video game I'm making and you wouldn't understand a thing if you aren't familiar with that particular world. It's like Jesus telling a parable about world war two to them.

The only way it would make more sense to those people is if they all died at some point. Also, if it was what people believed that Jesus told them that, He was talking to the Pharasees(sp?), and they hold tradition over scripture anyway.

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:42 pm

Felgar wrote:I disagree entirely with soul sleep. For starters you have to change Jesus' statement on the cross, so immediately you are starting to walk on thin ice, splitting hairs in interpretation.

Commas don't exist in Greek, and a comma makes all the difference in the statement Jesus made on the cross.

And where did Elijah go, when he was taken alive.

Elijah didn't die, why would he entire soul sleep?

And Revelations has various descriptions of heaven that are hardly empty.

The depiction of heaven in Revelation is the new earth, which is where Christians will be on.

And on top of all that, we have a good many first hand experiences of those who've died, been in the precense of the Lord, and then come back. There are simply too many for me not to lend some credibility to.

If a person thinks something will happen, they can dream or hallucinate it.

As for why Jesus likens being dead to sleeping makes sense to me. Your consciousness is detached from your body (in most cases). In the same way that we dream and experience not through physical means, so too could our consciousness be removed from our bodies at death and taken to heaven.

But the dreams we experience in sleep aren't real.

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:44 pm

August wrote:
However, I know how to rebuke each one.
OK, off you go. Please quote the Scripture, original language, as well as the theological and historical sources of your rebukes.

John 10:30; John 10:38; John 12:45; John 14:7-10; John 17:10, John 14:16; John 15:26, Proverbs 30:4; Matthew 11:27, Isaiah 40:28; John 1:3; Col. 1:16, Neh. 9:6; Col. 1:17; Hebrews 1:3, Genesis 17:1; Genesis 32:24-30; Genesis 48:15-16; Judges 6:22-24; Judges 13:21-22; Job 19:25-27; Hosea 12:3-5, Genesis 1:1; Exodus 23:20-21; Numbers 21:6; Psalm 24:10; Psalm 45:6-7; Psalm 102:1-14; Psalm 102:24-27; Psalm 110:1; Isaiah 6:1; Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 8:13-14; Isaiah 9:6; Isaiah 40:3; Isaiah 40:9-10; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 1:23; Matthew 3:3; Matthew 8:29; Matthew 9:6; Matthew 11:10; Matthew 22:43-45; Matthew 28:17-18; Mark 5:6-7; Luke 4:12; Luke 4:33-34; Luke 8:28; Luke 9:43-44; John 1:1-2; John 5:17-18; John 5:21-23; John 10:30-33; John 12:41; John 12:45; John 20:28; Acts 7:37-39; Acts 20:28; Romans 1:7; Romans 9:5; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 2:8; 1 Cor. 8:6; 1 Cor. 10:9; 1 Cor. 15:47; 2 Cor. 1:2; Galatians 1:1; Galatians 1:3; Ephes. 1:2; Ephes. 6:23-24; Phil. 1:2; Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 1:2; 1 Thes. 1:1; 1 Thes. 3:11; 2 Thes. 1:1-2; 2 Thes. 2:16-17; 1 Tim. 3:16; 2 Tim. 1:2; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8; Hebrews 1:10; 1 Peter 2:8; 1 John 5:20

I'm gonna save myself the trouble of typing an explanation for each of those scriptures, and just give you the link to my information.

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:44 pm

But He asks for the "cup to pass from Him". Also, Jesus is equal to the Father, according to you, He is God.

So? You're going around in circles. Either bring something new to the table or let it go.

[quoteJesus brought people from dead. DEAD. Meaning, they were dead as a doorknob, until Jesus brought them back. They were no less dead than any other dead man. [/quote]

Yes. The disagreement is on what being dead consists of. And I'm still waiting for an explanation of what Jesus told the theif on the cross.

The only way it would make more sense to those people is if they all died at some point.

Or if they knew what death resulted in. You don't need to die to know that.

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:10 pm

Mastermind wrote:
But He asks for the "cup to pass from Him". Also, Jesus is equal to the Father, according to you, He is God.
So? You're going around in circles. Either bring something new to the table or let it go.

He asked for the "cup to pass from Him". You stated He was being modest by saying it's the Father's will, even though He's equal to the Father according to you, but whatever. Anyways, by asking for the cup to pass from Him, how is that not asking God to spare Him?

Jesus brought people from dead. DEAD. Meaning, they were dead as a doorknob, until Jesus brought them back. They were no less dead than any other dead man.
Yes. The disagreement is on what being dead consists of. And I'm still waiting for an explanation of what Jesus told the theif on the cross.

I already explained that. but I'll do it again anyway. There are no commas in Greek, so thus, commas can only be added in English translations. And in the statement to the thief, comma placement can make all the difference. Just think a minute on how it can make a difference.

The only way it would make more sense to those people is if they all died at some point.
Or if they knew what death resulted in. You don't need to die to know that.

Yeah, but He was talking to the Pharasees, who put tradition over scipture. So thus, if that is what they believed, it's not nescesarily true.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:33 am

voicingmaster wrote:Anyways, by asking for the cup to pass from Him, how is that not asking God to spare Him?

I fail to see the analogy. How does passing the cup to Him mean He wants to be spared?

I already explained that. but I'll do it again anyway. There are no commas in Greek, so thus, commas can only be added in English translations. And in the statement to the thief, comma placement can make all the difference. Just think a minute on how it can make a difference.

No, that's a stupid explanation. Tell me exactly how the coma makes a difference. Coma... lol

Yeah, but He was talking to the Pharasees, who put tradition over scipture. So thus, if that is what they believed, it's not nescesarily true.

That's ridiculous. There is no tradition regarding the afterlife that is different from scripture! If anything, the pharisees were overly militant in doing their works. Jesus rebuked them for doing the works for the sake of doing works(or not doing what they were supposed to do) rather than the sake of God. It had nothing to do with the pharisees not understanding the law or making up their own additions.

August · Post by **August** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:43 am

I'm gonna save myself the trouble of typing an explanation for each of those scriptures, and just give you the link to my information.

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com

That site does not come close to rebuking the Scriptures quoted. And the ones they claim to rebuke are taken way out of context.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:26 pm

Mastermind wrote:No, that's a stupid explanation. Tell me exactly how the coma makes a difference. Coma... lol
And you know what? There is no coma in my bible.

Luke 23:43 43: And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

For anyone who doesn't believe that we immediately go to heaven when we die (not the new heaven, but the current heaven) this passage pretty much sinks them. So they claim that the comma is in a different spot. The phrase becomes:

"Truly, I say to today, you will be with me in paradise."

I think it's a weak argument. There are a large count of times where Jesus is quoted as saying "Truly I say to you," and then on to his point. If I'm not mistaken, that would be the only time that Jesus started by saying "Truly I say to you today,". If anyone questions that I'll have to find the original link where I read that.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:14 pm

Felgar wrote:
Mastermind wrote:No, that's a stupid explanation. Tell me exactly how the coma makes a difference. Coma... lol
And you know what? There is no coma in my bible.

Luke 23:43 43: And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
For anyone who doesn't believe that we immediately go to heaven when we die (not the new heaven, but the current heaven) this passage pretty much sinks them. So they claim that the comma is in a different spot. The phrase becomes:

"Truly, I say to today, you will be with me in paradise."

I think it's a weak argument. There are a large count of times where Jesus is quoted as saying "Truly I say to you," and then on to his point. If I'm not mistaken, that would be the only time that Jesus started by saying "Truly I say to you today,". If anyone questions that I'll have to find the original link where I read that.

We also have to remember there was no punctuation in the original Text...

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:01 pm

Another thought crossed my mind. Jesus promised to take the thief to Paradise. But according to you, there is no paradise for us to go to because we are all in Sheol until the ressurection, at which point we will not go to Paradise, but rather to the new Earth.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:18 pm

I found this while entertaining myself on Holding's site. You might find it useful:

http://www.tektonics.org/guest/500cares.html

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:50 pm

Mastermind wrote:
voicingmaster wrote:Anyways, by asking for the cup to pass from Him, how is that not asking God to spare Him?
I fail to see the analogy. How does passing the cup to Him mean He wants to be spared?

Not to Him, from Him. And what else could it mean it that context?

Also, you have yet to explain how God could be tempted. I mean, it says Jesus was tempted in every way we were, and it also says God can't be tempted. Meaning, not just three times in the desert, but also other, more mundane temptations like ours for 33 years. How would that show loyalty? God can't rebel against Himself, He can't be disloyal to Himself.

I already explained that. but I'll do it again anyway. There are no commas in Greek, so thus, commas can only be added in English translations. And in the statement to the thief, comma placement can make all the difference. Just think a minute on how it can make a difference.
No, that's a stupid explanation. Tell me exactly how the coma makes a difference. Coma... lol

Felgar covered that one. Besides, if there is a judgement before judgement day, why have judgement day? I mean, on judgement day, you are sent to either heaven or destruction for eternity. According to you, we are judged before that, and we are sent to a temporary place of either paradise or torment. If there is no judgement for the temp place, how would God know where to put you if He hasn't judged you yet?

Yeah, but He was talking to the Pharasees, who put tradition over scipture. So thus, if that is what they believed, it's not nescesarily true.

That's ridiculous. There is no tradition regarding the afterlife that is different from scripture! If anything, the pharisees were overly militant in doing their works. Jesus rebuked them for doing the works for the sake of doing works(or not doing what they were supposed to do) rather than the sake of God. It had nothing to do with the pharisees not understanding the law or making up their own additions.

The pharasees deviated from Hebrew scripture a lot. For example, there's one part where Jesus rebukes them for declaring dishonering your parents is ok.

Another thought crossed my mind. Jesus promised to take the thief to Paradise. But according to you, there is no paradise for us to go to because we are all in Sheol until the ressurection, at which point we will not go to Paradise, but rather to the new Earth.

The New Earth will be a paradise.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:32 am

Not to Him, from Him. And what else could it mean it that context?

I'll have to look into that when I have time(I've been meaning to for quite some time but just didn't get around to it). However, I don't buy your explanation because to me, it doesn't make sense.

Also, you have yet to explain how God could be tempted. I mean, it says Jesus was tempted in every way we were, and it also says God can't be tempted. Meaning, not just three times in the desert, but also other, more mundane temptations like ours for 33 years. How would that show loyalty? God can't rebel against Himself, He can't be disloyal to Himself.

"Thou shalt not tempt your LORD thy God"

God wouldn't give such a law if somebody could not tempt God, don't you think? Whether one can tempt God is irrelevant. What is relevant is that God cannot fall for it. Satan thinks that because he fell, then God can fall too. I guess it's a pride issue. He still thinks he's better.

Felgar covered that one.

He did, and he also covered why it is a bad interpretation. Care to reply to it?

Besides, if there is a judgement before judgement day, why have judgement day? I mean, on judgement day, you are sent to either heaven or destruction for eternity. According to you, we are judged before that, and we are sent to a temporary place of either paradise or torment. If there is no judgement for the temp place, how would God know where to put you if He hasn't judged you yet?

You'll have to ask God that. At any rate, I suggest you read this article on soul sleep, it's far more detailed than anything I could write
http://www.tektonics.org/qt/sleepy.html

The pharasees deviated from Hebrew scripture a lot. For example, there's one part where Jesus rebukes them for declaring dishonering your parents is ok.

Please give me the verse, because if it's the one I'm thinking of, I can already tell you didn't understand what
Jesus was doing.

The New Earth will be a paradise.

Any verse that states the new Earth is THE paradise? Because there are many references to heaven (like when Jesus tells the apostles there are many rooms in his father's house) and references to the new earth(Revelations) and there is nothing to suggest they are the same thing.