DBowling wrote: Kurieuo wrote:
Thanks DB for your response.
DBowling wrote:I believe the difference between authentic faith and fake faith is the object of faith.
1. The object of authentic faith is the person of Jesus Christ
2. The object of fake faith is our knowledge of theological truths about Jesus
Curious as to how you see one has faith in the person of Christ?
How do they come to possess such faith? What does it look like?
I'd be interested in your opinion...
It can be read in this post
, although I don't consider it all merely opinion
The only solution that I see, is to understand that "faith" is something God gives us, and is of our heart.
Those who are saved are the circumcision of heart, and God is the one who circumcises us.
This message has been the same in the OT:
"The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live." (Deuteronomy 30:6)And it is true in the NT:
No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God. (Romans 2:29)
It has always been true, at all times that God's objective was our hearts. It is something God works to produce within us, through his constant calling out to us in life and drawing us unto Himself. (John 6:44) We merely respond over time, and eventually collide with God resulting in belief, this faith of which we are now talking.
Our faith in Jesus Christ is not our righteousness. Our faith does not constitute our righteousness.
Faith is simply the instrument by which we receive Christ's righteousness, Christ's works who obeyed God's Law completely. The moment anyone talks of their faith saving them, they turn faith at once into works and immediately have something to boast of: "Oh my faith has saved me, thank God I'm not like those wicked Atheists!"
Audie debated here not long ago that belief isn't something we choose.
Some said belief is something we choose to believe. I only loosely followed, but who is correct?
I see that there is a process that leads one to belief, that a true and authentic belief cannot be forced even by ourselves. Coming to belief is in part not any one decision, but a process of internal changes. This Audie is right... but then, intellectual assent and belief in Christ often happens on the back of this inner changing. Authentic belief or faith in Christ is finally had as a consequence of, not in spite of, a changing of our hearts.
This change within us, our belief, our trust in Christ, our faith, is not something we do.
No, God has effected change within us. Your heart merely responded to God's pinging and echoed back.
You and God drew closer and closer together until collision happened, and then you believed -- an outworking of this process in your heart. And now you desire all that God desires, how could you not? You desire to do that which is good, and wage war until you die against your fleshly desires. Paul thankfully and reassuringly talks much of this conflict of two natures within us (Romans 7:15-25):
15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
DBowling wrote:The model I am inclined to embrace is the illumination model.
In order for a person to understand and accept the Gospel message, the Holy Spirit must first open his eyes to the truth that he is a sinner, and that he must trust in Jesus Christ to be delivered from their sin. If the person responds to this work of the Holy Spirit and trusts in Jesus then they are Born Again.
What I'll say here is meant to be an encouragement to unpack your words, not necessarily an attack on your response.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but this feels like a rather scripted and learnt response.
I asked how one trusts in Jesus, how the come to possess faith.
You responded by responding to the work of the Holy Spirit and trusting in Christ then they are Born Again
Ok, doesn't that seem tautologous? Christians often talk in terms that I find inauthentic which leave many unanswered questions and it all just sounding like they've been hypnotised with a certain response.
Such a response doesn't really broken away from religious terms to unpack them in a practical way. For example, what does "the work of the Holy Spirit" look like would help understand how some comes to faith. And trusting in Christ, non-Christians would still be left wondering what is this trusting in Christ? Especially given it's not like we can trust in Christ in the same manner we might a close friend we see.
Interestingly, it seems in your response that accepting the Gospel message as the final defining point for faith.
Perhaps for you an authentic faith is really intellectual after all? Perhaps you are closer to Jac's and SoCal's beliefs (as I understand them) at least in this respect more than initially thought:
DBowling wrote:Oh... theological truths are definitely important. Before you trust in Jesus to save you from your sins, you need to accept the theological truth[s] that you are a sinner and that Jesus is the person can deliver you from your sin.
I would say that theological truths are important to authentic faith but they are not an adequate object for authentic faith.