Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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jenna
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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby jenna » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:00 am

RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:Please reread the passage of the rich young ruler again, and keep it in its proper context.

i have read it, several times, and I am keeping it in context. Again i ask, do you not think that Christ was speaking for everyone? Do you think He wasnt serious? Why would He say this to one person, and not mean it for everyone. Christ's words are for all of us.

Here's a good article explaining the story of the rich young ruler:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/rich-young-ruler.html?client=safari
Thoughts?

no, we are not saved by works, but by grace. that is true. HOWEVER, God is not going to give that gift to those who do not obey Him. The young ruler was actually not keeping all the commandments, since he put the love of his things above the love of God. in essence, he idolized them first. Christ wanted him to put aside worldly things, and focus on obeying God. Many things make it nearly impossible to keep the commandments, our sinful nature being first and foremost. However, if we can focus on God and put our faith in Him totally, we can receive the gift He has for us. While we may slip up occasionally, we "can do all things through Christ who strengthens us".

Jenna,

I'm not sure how you cannot see the contradiction in what you're saying. On one hand, you said that we're saved by obeying the commandments. And on the other hand you say we are saved by grace. It can't be both. By definition, Grace is unmerited. If we obtain salvation by following the law, then it wouldn't be by grace.

Which one is it? Unmerited grace, or wages earned by works?

think of it this way. just say you had 2 children. they are in college, and you told them both they would receive a gift when they finished their courses. But one of them did not finish, would you still give him the gift? No, because he did not do his part in order to receive it! God is the same. He gives a free gift, but there are qualifiers in order to receive it. He will not give it to those who do not obey Him! why can you not see what I am saying? y(:|
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby jenna » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:03 am

Philip wrote:
Rick: Jenna,

I'm not sure how you cannot see the contradiction in what you're saying. On one hand, you said that we're saved by obeying the commandments. And on the other hand you say we are saved by grace. It can't be both. By definition, Grace is unmerited. If we obtain salvation by following the law, then it wouldn't be by grace.

Which one is it? Unmerited grace, or wages earned by works?


Further, Christians SIN! How could they not? Scripture is filled with God's servants who have done all manner of unthinkable sins. David and Moses murdered. Peter denied. Etc. Some we know to be Christians are exceptionally difficult people - and not nearly as typically pleasant or nice as many unbelievers are. How many Mormons and JWs are about as nice a people as you'd ever want to meet? Are we to believe that the average Christian is any more moral or caring than many such unbelievers? Are Christians' WORKS so far superior? Of course not! What is the ONLY difference? Why is one saved, the other not? By first doing this and that, faithfully keeping all of certain works? How about that big list of works apparent in the saved thief on the cross? At what point is one saved - after doing ___________, ___________, __________, ______, etc., etc? What is the criteria? What is the ONLY way to salvation? Faith in and commitment to Jesus! Period! So, if the criteria for salvation is ONLY faith, then why would one believe maintaining that faith has anything to do with works? What does Paul say about Who both began and who will COMPLETE one's salvation? And how could Paul have faith that those he is addressing would see the Lord one day? Because of their perfect obedience and ability to not sin???!!!

Philippians 1:6!

of course we sin, that is a given. and what did those servants do when they sinned? they REPENTED and moved on. they prayed to God for forgiveness. if we truly give our lives to Christ, we obey Him.
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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby RickD » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:14 am

jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:i have read it, several times, and I am keeping it in context. Again i ask, do you not think that Christ was speaking for everyone? Do you think He wasnt serious? Why would He say this to one person, and not mean it for everyone. Christ's words are for all of us.

Here's a good article explaining the story of the rich young ruler:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/rich-young-ruler.html?client=safari
Thoughts?

no, we are not saved by works, but by grace. that is true. HOWEVER, God is not going to give that gift to those who do not obey Him. The young ruler was actually not keeping all the commandments, since he put the love of his things above the love of God. in essence, he idolized them first. Christ wanted him to put aside worldly things, and focus on obeying God. Many things make it nearly impossible to keep the commandments, our sinful nature being first and foremost. However, if we can focus on God and put our faith in Him totally, we can receive the gift He has for us. While we may slip up occasionally, we "can do all things through Christ who strengthens us".

Jenna,

I'm not sure how you cannot see the contradiction in what you're saying. On one hand, you said that we're saved by obeying the commandments. And on the other hand you say we are saved by grace. It can't be both. By definition, Grace is unmerited. If we obtain salvation by following the law, then it wouldn't be by grace.

Which one is it? Unmerited grace, or wages earned by works?

think of it this way. just say you had 2 children. they are in college, and you told them both they would receive a gift when they finished their courses. But one of them did not finish, would you still give him the gift? No, because he did not do his part in order to receive it! God is the same. He gives a free gift, but there are qualifiers in order to receive it. He will not give it to those who do not obey Him! why can you not see what I am saying? y(:|

I can see what you're saying, but you are wrong. A gift, by definition, is unearned. Do you know what grace means? Again, if salvation is by grace, then it cannot be earned.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby jenna » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:49 am

RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:Here's a good article explaining the story of the rich young ruler:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/rich-young-ruler.html?client=safari
Thoughts?

no, we are not saved by works, but by grace. that is true. HOWEVER, God is not going to give that gift to those who do not obey Him. The young ruler was actually not keeping all the commandments, since he put the love of his things above the love of God. in essence, he idolized them first. Christ wanted him to put aside worldly things, and focus on obeying God. Many things make it nearly impossible to keep the commandments, our sinful nature being first and foremost. However, if we can focus on God and put our faith in Him totally, we can receive the gift He has for us. While we may slip up occasionally, we "can do all things through Christ who strengthens us".

Jenna,

I'm not sure how you cannot see the contradiction in what you're saying. On one hand, you said that we're saved by obeying the commandments. And on the other hand you say we are saved by grace. It can't be both. By definition, Grace is unmerited. If we obtain salvation by following the law, then it wouldn't be by grace.

Which one is it? Unmerited grace, or wages earned by works?

think of it this way. just say you had 2 children. they are in college, and you told them both they would receive a gift when they finished their courses. But one of them did not finish, would you still give him the gift? No, because he did not do his part in order to receive it! God is the same. He gives a free gift, but there are qualifiers in order to receive it. He will not give it to those who do not obey Him! why can you not see what I am saying? y(:|

I can see what you're saying, but you are wrong. A gift, by definition, is unearned. Do you know what grace means? Again, if salvation is by grace, then it cannot be earned.

ok, lets put it this way then. just say your parents want you to come to visit them. they say they have a gift for you when you get there. did you do anything to earn this gift? no. but in order for you to receive it, you must come and get it. you can choose not to go, or go and receive it. does going earn you that gift? Nope, but there are still conditions you must meet in order to get it.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby RickD » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:36 am

jenna wrote:
ok, lets put it this way then. just say your parents want you to come to visit them. they say they have a gift for you when you get there. did you do anything to earn this gift? no. but in order for you to receive it, you must come and get it. you can choose not to go, or go and receive it. does going earn you that gift? Nope, but there are still conditions you must meet in order to get it.


:pound:

I hope you can see what you're saying.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby jenna » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:43 am

RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:
ok, lets put it this way then. just say your parents want you to come to visit them. they say they have a gift for you when you get there. did you do anything to earn this gift? no. but in order for you to receive it, you must come and get it. you can choose not to go, or go and receive it. does going earn you that gift? Nope, but there are still conditions you must meet in order to get it.


:pound:

I hope you can see what you're saying.

i know exactly what I am saying, i just wish you would see it too. :?
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby RickD » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:47 am

jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:
ok, lets put it this way then. just say your parents want you to come to visit them. they say they have a gift for you when you get there. did you do anything to earn this gift? no. but in order for you to receive it, you must come and get it. you can choose not to go, or go and receive it. does going earn you that gift? Nope, but there are still conditions you must meet in order to get it.


:pound:

I hope you can see what you're saying.

i know exactly what I am saying, i just wish you would see it too. :?

If obeying the law is a condition for salvation, then how is salvation by grace, not by works?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby jenna » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:49 am

RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:
ok, lets put it this way then. just say your parents want you to come to visit them. they say they have a gift for you when you get there. did you do anything to earn this gift? no. but in order for you to receive it, you must come and get it. you can choose not to go, or go and receive it. does going earn you that gift? Nope, but there are still conditions you must meet in order to get it.


:pound:

I hope you can see what you're saying.

i know exactly what I am saying, i just wish you would see it too. :?

If obeying the law is a condition for salvation, then how is salvation by grace, not by works?

please re-read what i posted. or dont, if you find it tedious. i honestly dont know how many more ways i can explain it to you. :(
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby RickD » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:51 am

Does the Galatian Heresy mean anything to you?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby jenna » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:52 am

RickD wrote:Does the Galatian Heresy mean anything to you?

? not sure what you mean? hey, i am still learning too. so please dont laugh.
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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby RickD » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:54 am

jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:Does the Galatian Heresy mean anything to you?

? not sure what you mean? hey, i am still learning too. so please dont laugh.

Google is your friend.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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jenna
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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby jenna » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:01 am

RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:Does the Galatian Heresy mean anything to you?

? not sure what you mean? hey, i am still learning too. so please dont laugh.

Google is your friend.

so i have to google it instead of you explaining what you mean? y/:]
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby Storyteller » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:22 am

Tis okay jenna, I had to google too!

I think it means saved by grace, live by works.
As in, some interpret it as saying certain things, like circumcision, must be carried out, that we must do good works in order to be saved, that kind of thing, rather than by grace alone.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Rob Bell AFTER Hell

Postby Kurieuo » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:57 pm

jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:no, we are not saved by works, but by grace. that is true. HOWEVER, God is not going to give that gift to those who do not obey Him. The young ruler was actually not keeping all the commandments, since he put the love of his things above the love of God. in essence, he idolized them first. Christ wanted him to put aside worldly things, and focus on obeying God. Many things make it nearly impossible to keep the commandments, our sinful nature being first and foremost. However, if we can focus on God and put our faith in Him totally, we can receive the gift He has for us. While we may slip up occasionally, we "can do all things through Christ who strengthens us".

Jenna,

I'm not sure how you cannot see the contradiction in what you're saying. On one hand, you said that we're saved by obeying the commandments. And on the other hand you say we are saved by grace. It can't be both. By definition, Grace is unmerited. If we obtain salvation by following the law, then it wouldn't be by grace.

Which one is it? Unmerited grace, or wages earned by works?

think of it this way. just say you had 2 children. they are in college, and you told them both they would receive a gift when they finished their courses. But one of them did not finish, would you still give him the gift? No, because he did not do his part in order to receive it! God is the same. He gives a free gift, but there are qualifiers in order to receive it. He will not give it to those who do not obey Him! why can you not see what I am saying? y(:|

I can see what you're saying, but you are wrong. A gift, by definition, is unearned. Do you know what grace means? Again, if salvation is by grace, then it cannot be earned.

ok, lets put it this way then. just say your parents want you to come to visit them. they say they have a gift for you when you get there. did you do anything to earn this gift? no. but in order for you to receive it, you must come and get it. you can choose not to go, or go and receive it. does going earn you that gift? Nope, but there are still conditions you must meet in order to get it.

I agree with the coming to Christ thing, to receive the forgiveness Christ offers (e.g., prodigal son). But, the obeying you previously mention is adding something more, something which the OT illustrates over and over again, our own world and own lives demonstrate over and over again, just ends up like filthy rags before God who is perfectly entirely thoroughly completely ALL-righteous and ALL-good.

It's not that we shouldn't do what is right and good, it's just that our being saved from eternal death due to our sinning is no it no longer relevant to being saved from God's righteous judgement. The eternal life offered by Christ in God's kingdom is never a matter of be good or else you're going to get it! If our goodness is ever a condition either before or after we come to Christ, then there's no good news, no hope, just condemnation we all justly deserve.

Thankfully, God's righteousness isn't only based upon fairness and justice with what we do, but can also be given to us via Christ (at least, so we hope and believe as has been passed onto us).
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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