Must Jesus be God..

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:28 am

Philip wrote:There was no time that The Father existed without the Son or the HS.
There was no time The Father existed without the Son or the HS


True!

WHY?
Because if He had existed only 'by himself" then He would NOT have been GOD since He would NOT have been complete and relational and His love would have been self-centered AND He would have been "missing" something so that He had/wanted to "beget" a Son.
See the issue?


While the comment about God being relational within His Trinity is true, it is not the answer to the asserted reason as to "why?" God is composed of what He is. While I'm pretty sure he knows it, Paul's answer appears to suggest that somehow God BECAME what He is so as to be relational and not be self-centered or to any way be lacking. The simple reason that God is the way He is, is that He simply IS, and that His attributes have eternally existed and that His will as to what He ultimately values has NEVER changed. That's why He is "The Great I Am!"


God has always existed as a relational "being" ( though He is not A being, He is "simply" being).
My point is that IF at any point God was not Father, Son and HS that means that God has changed, which would make Him not God.
To suggest that God became The Father when The Son was begotten means that God was NOT "The Father" and became, ie: changed, when He begot The Son.

To change is to either became more or less than He was or at least different, which would mean that God would not have been perfect and as such, NOT God.
For God to beget a Son He would have had to have a reason, which would mean that there would have been something missing, some reason to beget the Son, something that God could not do or that God needed.
Hence He would not have been God.

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby B. W. » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:25 am

LittleHamster wrote:Don't forget B.W.'s short thread ...."Basic Theology: Jesus is God"

There are plenty of scriptural quotes in it:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=39730


Yes, try that thread and the OT Concept of God as well too... which a a wee bit longer

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=33317

I was out of town this weekend so was unable to respond until now...
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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby B. W. » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:36 am

Lonewolf wrote:There's a little of bit of going off track on the question, it is not whether Jesus is or isn't God; the question is whether Jesus had to be God in order for the atonement to be perfect and valid?


It is written:


Isa 45:21-22, "Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. 22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other." NKJV

Now look at the next verse, verse 23 quoted below, and then compare to John 1:1-14. Jesus know as whom???

Isa 45:23, "I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath." NKJV

Then Isa 43:11 NKJV mentions this: I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.

Again Hosea 13:4 mentions what?

Now view...

Isa 12:2, Rev 1:17, 18, and note Isa 41:4, Isa 44:6, Isa 48:12 as well too...

How much detail do you need?
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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby abelcainsbrother » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:45 am

John 1:1,Titus 2:13,John 10:33.Hebrews 1:8,Philippians 2:6,Colossians 2:9,Isaiah 9:6,Romans 9:5,2nd Peter 1:1,John 20:28,Acts 20:28,2nd Timothy 3:16,1st John 5:20,Colossians 1:15,John 8:24,John 1:18. Prove biblically that Jesus Christ is God and this backs up the trinity also - one God manifested by 3 things God the father,the word/son and the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby TheQuestor » Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:50 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:John 1:1,Titus 2:13,John 10:33.Hebrews 1:8,Philippians 2:6,Colossians 2:9,Isaiah 9:6,Romans 9:5,2nd Peter 1:1,John 20:28,Acts 20:28,2nd Timothy 3:16,1st John 5:20,Colossians 1:15,John 8:24,John 1:18. Prove biblically that Jesus Christ is God and this backs up the trinity also - one God manifested by 3 things God the father,the word/son and the Holy Spirit.


If Jesus is God, who was he calling to for help, when he was on the cross? And does God die?

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby B. W. » Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:47 pm

TheQuestor wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:John 1:1,Titus 2:13,John 10:33.Hebrews 1:8,Philippians 2:6,Colossians 2:9,Isaiah 9:6,Romans 9:5,2nd Peter 1:1,John 20:28,Acts 20:28,2nd Timothy 3:16,1st John 5:20,Colossians 1:15,John 8:24,John 1:18. Prove biblically that Jesus Christ is God and this backs up the trinity also - one God manifested by 3 things God the father,the word/son and the Holy Spirit.


If Jesus is God, who was he calling to for help, when he was on the cross? And does God die?



Easy, the same manner that there can be seven Spirits of God. (note: Rev 4:5, Rev 5:6)

Another easier way is to actually know a wee bit of Hebrew Grammar, word meanings and usage, from the Old Testament as in:

Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL-singular), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim - plural), and there is none like Me, Isaiah 46:9- JPS.

There is none like God and that means his state of oneness is unlike anything we can fully fathom as it is written:

Job 36:26, Behold, God is great, beyond our knowledge JPS

Reducing God to an easily understood concept of oneness is not beyond our knowledge, is it? - and thus for there to be truly none like God, then that means His oneness is not like any state of oneness we see or conceive of. The Trinitarian concept of God is true to what the text in Job 36:26 states, and what God said about himself in Isaiah 46:9 too!

In fact, the ancient OT biblical text is thoroughly Trinitarian as revealed by the usage of El, Elohim, Yahweh, Malek, Panim, etc and etc, when referring to God.

The other clue is discovered in God's self existing nature and any expression of himself will also be Him and also be self existing as well. Think about it?

If you, Quest, were actually born again and a christian, you would have been taught by the Holy Spirit who Jesus is as well as Himself is, and who the Father is. He leads Christians to realize the Trintarian Nature of God's oneness all in due time during our mortal life's sojourn and helps us behold the majesty of the Lord. You clearly deny who Jesus really is... You need to become Born again as Jesus spoke about in John 3:14-21, 36 - are you ready or simply desire to continue to play foolish games with your own eternity?

Titus 2:13 NKJV, ...looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ...

Isa 43:10 NKJV "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me."

Isa 41:4, Isa 44:6-8, Isa 48:12 says what that is in common with Rev 1:11 NKJV, Rev 1:17 NKJV, Rev 2:8 NKJV, Rev 22:13 NKJV
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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby TheQuestor » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:05 am

B. W. wrote:
TheQuestor wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:John 1:1,Titus 2:13,John 10:33.Hebrews 1:8,Philippians 2:6,Colossians 2:9,Isaiah 9:6,Romans 9:5,2nd Peter 1:1,John 20:28,Acts 20:28,2nd Timothy 3:16,1st John 5:20,Colossians 1:15,John 8:24,John 1:18. Prove biblically that Jesus Christ is God and this backs up the trinity also - one God manifested by 3 things God the father,the word/son and the Holy Spirit.


If Jesus is God, who was he calling to for help, when he was on the cross? And does God die?



Easy, the same manner that there can be seven Spirits of God. (note: Rev 4:5, Rev 5:6)

Another easier way is to actually know a wee bit of Hebrew Grammar, word meanings and usage, from the Old Testament as in:

Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL-singular), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim - plural), and there is none like Me, Isaiah 46:9- JPS.

There is none like God and that means his state of oneness is unlike anything we can fully fathom as it is written:

Job 36:26, Behold, God is great, beyond our knowledge JPS

Reducing God to an easily understood concept of oneness is not beyond our knowledge, is it? - and thus for there to be truly none like God, then that means His oneness is not like any state of oneness we see or conceive of. The Trinitarian concept of God is true to what the text in Job 36:26 states, and what God said about himself in Isaiah 46:9 too!

In fact, the ancient OT biblical text is thoroughly Trinitarian as revealed by the usage of El, Elohim, Yahweh, Malek, Panim, etc and etc, when referring to God.

The other clue is discovered in God's self existing nature and any expression of himself will also be Him and also be self existing as well. Think about it?

If you, Quest, were actually born again and a christian, you would have been taught by the Holy Spirit who Jesus is as well as Himself is, and who the Father is. He leads Christians to realize the Trintarian Nature of God's oneness all in due time during our mortal life's sojourn and helps us behold the majesty of the Lord. You clearly deny who Jesus really is... You need to become Born again as Jesus spoke about in John 3:14-21, 36 - are you ready or simply desire to continue to play foolish games with your own eternity?

Titus 2:13 NKJV, ...looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ...

Isa 43:10 NKJV "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me."

Isa 41:4, Isa 44:6-8, Isa 48:12 says what that is in common with Rev 1:11 NKJV, Rev 1:17 NKJV, Rev 2:8 NKJV, Rev 22:13 NKJV
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If Jesus, was God, then God is human. This might have been the entire purpose for Jesus to be here in the first place. So if Jesus, was God, then by appearing on Earth, he killed the classical, all powerful notion of an all powerful all spirit God.

If you reject this, then you are actually rejecting that Jesus was God.

Jesus, might have been both, as we might have the DNA of the creator, in which is the ability to dominate, (as was the promise) the sky and later the heavens.

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby B. W. » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:38 am

TheQuestor wrote:
B. W. wrote:
TheQuestor wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:John 1:1,Titus 2:13,John 10:33.Hebrews 1:8,Philippians 2:6,Colossians 2:9,Isaiah 9:6,Romans 9:5,2nd Peter 1:1,John 20:28,Acts 20:28,2nd Timothy 3:16,1st John 5:20,Colossians 1:15,John 8:24,John 1:18. Prove biblically that Jesus Christ is God and this backs up the trinity also - one God manifested by 3 things God the father,the word/son and the Holy Spirit.


If Jesus is God, who was he calling to for help, when he was on the cross? And does God die?


Easy, the same manner that there can be seven Spirits of God. (note: Rev 4:5, Rev 5:6)

Another easier way is to actually know a wee bit of Hebrew Grammar, word meanings and usage, from the Old Testament as in:

Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL-singular), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim - plural), and there is none like Me, Isaiah 46:9- JPS.

There is none like God and that means his state of oneness is unlike anything we can fully fathom as it is written:

Job 36:26, Behold, God is great, beyond our knowledge JPS

Reducing God to an easily understood concept of oneness is not beyond our knowledge, is it? - and thus for there to be truly none like God, then that means His oneness is not like any state of oneness we see or conceive of. The Trinitarian concept of God is true to what the text in Job 36:26 states, and what God said about himself in Isaiah 46:9 too!

In fact, the ancient OT biblical text is thoroughly Trinitarian as revealed by the usage of El, Elohim, Yahweh, Malek, Panim, etc and etc, when referring to God.

The other clue is discovered in God's self existing nature and any expression of himself will also be Him and also be self existing as well. Think about it?

If you, Quest, were actually born again and a christian, you would have been taught by the Holy Spirit who Jesus is as well as Himself is, and who the Father is. He leads Christians to realize the Trintarian Nature of God's oneness all in due time during our mortal life's sojourn and helps us behold the majesty of the Lord. You clearly deny who Jesus really is... You need to become Born again as Jesus spoke about in John 3:14-21, 36 - are you ready or simply desire to continue to play foolish games with your own eternity?

Titus 2:13 NKJV, ...looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ...

Isa 43:10 NKJV "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me."

Isa 41:4, Isa 44:6-8, Isa 48:12 says what that is in common with Rev 1:11 NKJV, Rev 1:17 NKJV, Rev 2:8 NKJV, Rev 22:13 NKJV


If Jesus, was God, then God is human. This might have been the entire purpose for Jesus to be here in the first place. So if Jesus, was God, then by appearing on Earth, he killed the classical, all powerful notion of an all powerful all spirit God.

If you reject this, then you are actually rejecting that Jesus was God.

Jesus, might have been both, as we might have the DNA of the creator, in which is the ability to dominate, (as was the promise) the sky and later the heavens.


Questor, You are using an equivalence falsie here and people should be educated about this tactic. It will not work here...

The Godhead existed in nature as Spirit before humanity ever was. Therefore God has no DNA.

Humanity was lost in sin. God, according to his own nature and character foreknew all this and decided that due to himself being all that he is and true to himself decided long ago before the foundations of the world that He would come and save humanity by his own act of self sacrificial love in a manner that exposes and defines sin clearly in a time and culture transcending manner. In doing so, he confronts humanity with our true unbridled nature in order to wake us up that we are heading in the wrong direction in a bad way. To do this, he violates human free will because he has too because no fallen human could ever freely choose God's holy ways without a choice thrust upon them created to wake them up. You are missing the incarnation of Jesus entirely and the reason for it entirely as well too by remaining way too egotistical to change.

Yes, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and his name is Jesus in English and Yeshua in Hebrew. Before that incarnation he was and remains God. He shared with our humanity in order to save humanity. In this, is a great act of love so profound that no one can take it all in. Why would God do this? It was not done so that we become gods, like the Mormons teach and you teach. Humanity was tossed out of the Garden for wanting to become their own gods. There are no other gods, nor shall there ever be as the bible teaches, Isa 43:10, Isa 45:5,6,18,21,22+

God sending forth Jesus, coming in human form does not mean he has Human DNA or still has human DNA according to your opinion. Do you not know that Jesus rose form the dead and after the Resurrection, his body 'is' quite different than ours as he walked through a closed door and appeared - looked different - many times to various people as Mark 16:12 reveals. We humans with DNA cannot do that, can we? Your equivalence argument is voided on this fact.

This shows that, he does not have any Human DNA in the resurrected body because for to have, he could have not done what he did and appeared as he did to so many. Jesus described himself as the door. The only way to the Godhead is thru that door. God coming in human form provided the means for the door to be rent in two and now opened so we can enter by what Christ did upon the cross reconciled back to God as his adopted children - not biological as it is written, Eph 1:5, Rom 8:15, Gal 4:5.

God came inhuman flesh, Jesus, sharing our humanity in a sin warped world with all its wacky dysfunctional families, relationship killing ways, all its self center egotistical pride, all its abuse, neglect, abandonment, rejection, brown nosing, one up-man-ship, all its quid pro quo, all its lostness and mischievousness, diabolicalness, all its putting folks on mental trial, mockings, beatings, plotting, schemes...

Jesus disarmed principalities and powers, made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it, Col 2:15, by the cross in order to wake us all up to what we are doing to family, friends, self, strangers, God... So that we can enter thru the door he open for us. Jesus came as a man to open that door so we can follow entering in the resurrection of new life. The veil is rent in two, the way open for all, paved by the blood of grace shed...

Questor, you are bound to the shackles of wacky dysfunctional families, relationship killing ways, self center egotistical pride, abuse, neglect, abandonment, rejection, brown nosing, one up-man-ship, quid pro quo, lostness and mischievousness, diabolicalness, putting folks on mental trial, mockings, beatings, plotting, and schemes...

You need to enter through the door of Christ and stop playing games with your eternity. I you desire to understand who the real Jesus is and what He did, you need to become born again so the Holy Spirit can teach teach you. It is easy to do, in fact Jesus mentions how in Luke 18:13 - go and do likewise.

Currently, You do not have the ears to hear or the eyes to see as you do not want too but turning to Jesus just as you are will open those closed eyes...
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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby TheQuestor » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:14 am

B. W. wrote:
TheQuestor wrote:
B. W. wrote:
TheQuestor wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:John 1:1,Titus 2:13,John 10:33.Hebrews 1:8,Philippians 2:6,Colossians 2:9,Isaiah 9:6,Romans 9:5,2nd Peter 1:1,John 20:28,Acts 20:28,2nd Timothy 3:16,1st John 5:20,Colossians 1:15,John 8:24,John 1:18. Prove biblically that Jesus Christ is God and this backs up the trinity also - one God manifested by 3 things God the father,the word/son and the Holy Spirit.


If Jesus is God, who was he calling to for help, when he was on the cross? And does God die?


Easy, the same manner that there can be seven Spirits of God. (note: Rev 4:5, Rev 5:6)

Another easier way is to actually know a wee bit of Hebrew Grammar, word meanings and usage, from the Old Testament as in:

Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL-singular), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim - plural), and there is none like Me, Isaiah 46:9- JPS.

There is none like God and that means his state of oneness is unlike anything we can fully fathom as it is written:

Job 36:26, Behold, God is great, beyond our knowledge JPS

Reducing God to an easily understood concept of oneness is not beyond our knowledge, is it? - and thus for there to be truly none like God, then that means His oneness is not like any state of oneness we see or conceive of. The Trinitarian concept of God is true to what the text in Job 36:26 states, and what God said about himself in Isaiah 46:9 too!

In fact, the ancient OT biblical text is thoroughly Trinitarian as revealed by the usage of El, Elohim, Yahweh, Malek, Panim, etc and etc, when referring to God.

The other clue is discovered in God's self existing nature and any expression of himself will also be Him and also be self existing as well. Think about it?

If you, Quest, were actually born again and a christian, you would have been taught by the Holy Spirit who Jesus is as well as Himself is, and who the Father is. He leads Christians to realize the Trintarian Nature of God's oneness all in due time during our mortal life's sojourn and helps us behold the majesty of the Lord. You clearly deny who Jesus really is... You need to become Born again as Jesus spoke about in John 3:14-21, 36 - are you ready or simply desire to continue to play foolish games with your own eternity?

Titus 2:13 NKJV, ...looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ...

Isa 43:10 NKJV "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me."

Isa 41:4, Isa 44:6-8, Isa 48:12 says what that is in common with Rev 1:11 NKJV, Rev 1:17 NKJV, Rev 2:8 NKJV, Rev 22:13 NKJV


If Jesus, was God, then God is human. This might have been the entire purpose for Jesus to be here in the first place. So if Jesus, was God, then by appearing on Earth, he killed the classical, all powerful notion of an all powerful all spirit God.

If you reject this, then you are actually rejecting that Jesus was God.

Jesus, might have been both, as we might have the DNA of the creator, in which is the ability to dominate, (as was the promise) the sky and later the heavens.


Questor, You are using an equivalence falsie here and people should be educated about this tactic. It will not work here...

The Godhead existed in nature as Spirit before humanity ever was. Therefore God has no DNA.

Humanity was lost in sin. God, according to his own nature and character foreknew all this and decided that due to himself being all that he is and true to himself decided long ago before the foundations of the world that He would come and save humanity by his own act of self sacrificial love in a manner that exposes and defines sin clearly in a time and culture transcending manner. In doing so, he confronts humanity with our true unbridled nature in order to wake us up that we are heading in the wrong direction in a bad way. To do this, he violates human free will because he has too because no fallen human could ever freely choose God's holy ways without a choice thrust upon them created to wake them up. You are missing the incarnation of Jesus entirely and the reason for it entirely as well too by remaining way too egotistical to change.

Yes, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and his name is Jesus in English and Yeshua in Hebrew. Before that incarnation he was and remains God. He shared with our humanity in order to save humanity. In this, is a great act of love so profound that no one can take it all in. Why would God do this? It was not done so that we become gods, like the Mormons teach and you teach. Humanity was tossed out of the Garden for wanting to become their own gods. There are no other gods, nor shall there ever be as the bible teaches, Isa 43:10, Isa 45:5,6,18,21,22+

God sending forth Jesus, coming in human form does not mean he has Human DNA or still has human DNA according to your opinion. Do you not know that Jesus rose form the dead and after the Resurrection, his body 'is' quite different than ours as he walked through a closed door and appeared - looked different - many times to various people as Mark 16:12 reveals. We humans with DNA cannot do that, can we? Your equivalence argument is voided on this fact.

This shows that, he does not have any Human DNA in the resurrected body because for to have, he could have not done what he did and appeared as he did to so many. Jesus described himself as the door. The only way to the Godhead is thru that door. God coming in human form provided the means for the door to be rent in two and now opened so we can enter by what Christ did upon the cross reconciled back to God as his adopted children - not biological as it is written, Eph 1:5, Rom 8:15, Gal 4:5.

God came inhuman flesh, Jesus, sharing our humanity in a sin warped world with all its wacky dysfunctional families, relationship killing ways, all its self center egotistical pride, all its abuse, neglect, abandonment, rejection, brown nosing, one up-man-ship, all its quid pro quo, all its lostness and mischievousness, diabolicalness, all its putting folks on mental trial, mockings, beatings, plotting, schemes...

Jesus disarmed principalities and powers, made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it, Col 2:15, by the cross in order to wake us all up to what we are doing to family, friends, self, strangers, God... So that we can enter thru the door he open for us. Jesus came as a man to open that door so we can follow entering in the resurrection of new life. The veil is rent in two, the way open for all, paved by the blood of grace shed...

Questor, you are bound to the shackles of wacky dysfunctional families, relationship killing ways, self center egotistical pride, abuse, neglect, abandonment, rejection, brown nosing, one up-man-ship, quid pro quo, lostness and mischievousness, diabolicalness, putting folks on mental trial, mockings, beatings, plotting, and schemes...

You need to enter through the door of Christ and stop playing games with your eternity. I you desire to understand who the real Jesus is and what He did, you need to become born again so the Holy Spirit can teach teach you. It is easy to do, in fact Jesus mentions how in Luke 18:13 - go and do likewise.

Currently, You do not have the ears to hear or the eyes to see as you do not want too but turning to Jesus just as you are will open those closed eyes...
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None of that answers the question, could God die at the hands of the men he made?

Jesus was the Son of God, it's in the bible.

John 4:15 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

So argue with John please.

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby B. W. » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:15 am

TheQuestor wrote:None of that answers the question, could God die at the hands of the men he made?

Jesus was the Son of God, it's in the bible.

John 4:15 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

So argue with John please.


Why don't you argue with John then... John 1:1,2,3,14+ John knew who Jesus was and is - you do not.

Yes it is true God cannot die, but he died a mortal death in our place as our substitute to reconcile and and save us... That the bible testifies from end to the beginning.

Luke 18:26, 27, "And those who heard it said, "Who then can be saved?" 27 But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God." NKJV

Again, you do not understand mortal death and the truth that even we never die after our own mortal death, therefore, God who came in human flesh never died. The grave. sheol could not hold him. He led the righteous dead held there to heaven to be with Him as the scriptures teach.

Again, your equivalency Fallacy (aka Falsie) does no good here. You must explain why you think mortal death means extinction into a non-existent state. MOrtal death does not mean that at all and is why and how Jesus could atone for our sins as only God can forgive sins...
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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby TheQuestor » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:29 am

Again, your equivalency Fallacy (aka Falsie) does no good here. You must explain why you think mortal death means extinction into a non-existent state. -


Actually I do not have to explain this, because I never said it.

So who was Christ calling to for help while he was nailed to the cross?

A. God his father.
B. Mary his mother.
C. The soldier who speared him.
D. The criminals next to him.

Cheat sheet. The answer is A. Therefor, Jesus was not his father, but his fathers son. Are you saying that Jesus, was wrong?

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby RickD » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:11 pm

TheQuestor wrote:
Again, your equivalency Fallacy (aka Falsie) does no good here. You must explain why you think mortal death means extinction into a non-existent state. -


Actually I do not have to explain this, because I never said it.

So who was Christ calling to for help while he was nailed to the cross?

A. God his father.
B. Mary his mother.
C. The soldier who speared him.
D. The criminals next to him.

Cheat sheet. The answer is A. Therefor, Jesus was not his father, but his fathers son. Are you saying that Jesus, was wrong?

Here we go again with the "Jesus is not the Father so that means he's not God" discussion again.

Questor,

Do a google search for Trinity. Until you understand some basics about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God, you are going to sound foolish.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby B. W. » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:57 am

TheQuestor wrote:So who was Christ calling to for help while he was nailed to the cross?


Questor, you are making an inference that cannot be backed up by your claim that Jesus was forsaken on the cross by the Father by him calling out for help in order to claim that Jesus was not God by your interpretation of Mat 27:46. Jesus was not calling out for help. He went willingly to the cross as determined before the foundation of the world. He could have called how many angels to help him if he wanted too?

Let's look at this more...

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Mat 27:46

Let me educate you a bit on the Hebrew Tradition of learning so you can understand what is being said in the text. Jewish Tradition in bible interpretation was that when a verse was cited in a text, the context of that text is also implied. In fact the Jewish New Testament Commentary notes on Matthew 27:46 bring out this point:

In Judaism, when a Bible verse is cited its entire context is implied... Thus Yeshua refers all of Psalm 22 to himself; other of its verses are cited at Mat 27:35, Mat 27:39, John 19:28 and Heb 2:12.

Jewish New Testament Commentary


To understand what Jesus meant when he spoke in the recorded text, you need to read the last parts of Palms 22. This goes in line with the Jewish thought of making a statement so that one asks questions. This leads to more questions being asked and by this method one comes into understanding of what is actually being said. In other words, look at the whole picture. That is the Jewish tradition for learning.

You are making a mistake reading your meaning into the word translated forsaken implying that Jesus was calling out for help and not realizing that Forsake can also actually be used in positive sense, rather than a negative one alone. In the Hebrew Roots Bible has an interesting note on Matthew 27:46 it states this same principle regarding this verse that ‘forsaking’ was not meant in a negative manner in which one infers that God the Father forsook Jesus in an absolute sense of absolute abandonment:

This verse has been greatly misquoted as the original Aramaic can mean to forsake in a bad way, but also can mean to leave in a good way, such as if you were an owner of a company and had to go away and left someone very trusted to care for your business while you were gone. From Isa 63:1-9, we see that only Messiah qualified to redeem Israel and it is stating here the honor given to Him for His perfect life and sacrifice.

Hebrew Roots Bible


This was not a forsaking as in total absolute abandonment as you imply Questor so that Jesus is asking for help. God the Father never left Jesus nor did Christ's divinity leave him either. The Aramaic phrase used by Jesus is a quote from Psalms 22:1. In fact, the statement/question format is important to go through so you and others see the big picture. How so?

It is a clear statement that is asking this: Why am I being left to this fate? Those seeing this, and for those reading are lead to the next question - why did Jesus suffer this fate at the hand of sinners? Most folks stop and never ask the question and forget that Jesus did call himself God and that is one reason they nailed him to a cross. Oh how folks would love to do that today - just like you, Questor...

Matt 27:46, sabachthani; is Aramaic word meaning, "Thou hast forsaken me," it is in 2nd person sing. with the 1st. person Suffix…This is interesting in that Jesus is the 2nd person of the Godhead noted. The 1st person suffix is interesting too denoting there is more going on than meets the eye. Then there is the Greek word translated forsaken which means simply to leave behind in any place or any state… -- Why am I in this state of suffering ---

So you need to ask the question, why was it necessary for Jesus to be led to, and go through the crucifixion? That is the thrust of Matt 27:46. The answer is found in Psalms 22:24-31 as Jesus is quoting verse one indicating that the whole Psalm is important grasp in order to understand actually what he was saying during extreme pain suffering. Psalms 22 has the answer which confirms the why the necessity of the undergoing the crucifixion was justified which is mentioned in…

Psalms 22:24-31, "For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He cried to Him, He heard. 25 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly; I will pay My vows before those who fear Him. 26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the LORD. Let your heart live forever! 27 All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You.

"28 For the kingdom is the LORD's, And He rules over the nations. 29 All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship; All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive. 30 A posterity shall serve Him. It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation, 31 They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born, That He has done this.
"

In fact, what Jesus is saying is this, “Why am I being abandon to suffer like this….what’s the true purpose for my suffering?”

Verse 24, But when He cried to Him, He heard… (Please note: sabachthani; word meaning, "Thou hast forsaken me," is in 2nd person sing. with the 1st. pers. Suffix). He heard means, he was never forsaken... but an answer is being granted to you and I pointing to why it was necessary for him to suffer on the cross through those words. It was necessary because it was ordained by God for the forgiveness of sins. This necessity is brought out in Acts 2:23,24 thus answering why it was necessary to be delivered up, forsaken to the fate of Crucifixion…

The Apostle Peter verified this again in Acts 3:18, "But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled."

Also in Acts 4:27,28, "For truly against Your Holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."

Why was Jesus abandoned/forsaken to bear the fate of crucifixion – answer - in order to bring forth salvation... Jesus uttered those words upon the cross in sync with His own (John 12:27), the Father’s, and Holy Spirit will. Questor, you don’t get the triune nature of God do you?

In fact, in Matt 27:50 Jesus cried out again. In Luke 23:46 and John 19:30 shares what He said... It is Finished...

Psalms 22 is finished, redemption is finished, God’s unified will is finished… Grace revealed…

What’s that mean?

Luke 23:34, "Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." And they divided His garments and cast lots. {Please note that only God can forgive - erase clean - sins... Isa 43:11, Isa 12:2, Isa 45:21,22 - why? }

Acts 3:17 "Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.

Questor have you consider that those in charge put Jesus to death on the cross because he said often that he is God, the I AM - John 8:58,59?

Now if Jesus isn't who he said he was, then who was he? Have you ever thought of that? If not God in human flesh come to save human beings, etc, then his own testimony that He is God, the I AM, the one who erases sin, makes him a lair - a sinning savior. How could a lair be trusted to save humanity? Jesus was put on a sham trial because he said he was God. It is you, claiming he was not. What side of the fence does that place you?

Questor, you do not get the true purpose of the cross and how Jesus could be both 100 percent God and 100 percent man in order to bring to light the ignorance of sin in us and awaken us to see it plainly so that we can turn to him, his grace shown, by faith and become his own beloved, do you?

Let me help you by personalizing these bible verses…

Mat 26:25 Then (Questor), who was betraying Him, answered and said, "Rabbi, is it I?" He said to him, "You have said it."

Mat 26:59-60 Now the chief (Questor), the (elder Questor), and all the council of (Questor) sought false testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, 60 but found none. Even though many false witnesses came forward, they found none. But at last two (Questors) came forward…

Mat 26:63-64 But Jesus kept silent. And (Questor) ... said to Him, "I put you under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" 64 Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Mat 26:66-67 What do you think?" (Questor) answered and said, "He is deserving of death." 67 Then (Questor) spat in His face and beat Him; and other (Questors) struck Him with the palms of their hands...

Mat 27:1-2 When morning came, all the chief Questor and elder Questors of the people plotted against Jesus to put Him to death. 2 And when they had bound Him, Questor led Him away and delivered Him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

Mat 27:22-23 Pilate said to Questor, "What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" (Questor) said to him, "Let Him be crucified!" 23 Then the governor said, "Why, what evil has He done?" But (Questor) cried out all the more, saying, "Let Him be crucified!"

Mat 27:27-31 Then the (Questors) of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole garrison around Him. 28 And (Questors) stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him. 29 When (Questor) had twisted a crown of thorns, (Questor) put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand. And the (Questors) bowed the knee before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" 30 Then (Questor) spat on Him, and took the reed and struck Him on the head. 31 and when (Questor) had mocked Him, Questor led Him away to be crucified...

So the question comes - why did Jesus say - why hast thou forsaken me?

Answer: to save Questor...

2 Co 5:18-21, …that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

All Bible quotes are from the NKJV
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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:40 am

The statement "Jesus is God" is a statement of NATURE.
The very statement "Jesus is the Son of God" means that Jesus is God.
Just as the statement Jesus is the Son of Man" can mean He is human.

The issue is, as always, with anti-trinitarian point of views, that God = The Father as opposed to the reality which is the term God is a statement of nature, of divinity ( and yes, at times, to identity).

To say that Jesus is God is simply to accept that ALL that The Father IS, Jesus IS by nature.
As Paul put it:
He is the EXACT form of God (Colossians).
All that God is, He is ( Philippians).
As John put it:
He was with God and was God.

One can not deny that Son and Father have the same nature and if Father is God, then Son is God also.

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby B. W. » Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:13 am

PaulSacramento wrote:The statement "Jesus is God" is a statement of NATURE.
The very statement "Jesus is the Son of God" means that Jesus is God.
Just as the statement Jesus is the Son of Man" can mean He is human..


To add further to what Paul wrote both terms Son of God and Son of Man when applihed to the Messiah points to the Divinity of the Messiah.

There is a lot of meaning within these phrases when applied to Jesus which I will post just a few:

1- Son of Man - refers to the Nature of the Divine Person seen in Dan 7:13 and mentioned in Mat 24:30, Mat 25:31, Mat 26:64. This is the one seen by Adam, Abraham, and Manoah (Judges 13:17-23) and with whom Jacob wrestled with: Messenger YHWH known as the Word as John revealed in John 1:1,2,3,14

2- Son of Man is a phrase that also points out that God will send his Presence as a Son to Man Isa 9:6,7 to redeem men and women from sins, setting up the eternal kingdom of God's sealed perfection. - Isa 43:10, Isa 45:18 -

3- Son of Man refers to Jesus' glorified state because he looks like a Son of Man as Mark 16:12 mentions...

Next,

4- Son of God - term Gentile King Nebuchadnezzar used to identify Messenger YHWH - Dan 3:25 NKJV "Look!" he answered, "I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Note: Jesus indeed pre-existed and revealed himself within a fiery furnace and corrected - humbled Nebuchadnezzar)

5- Son of God - phrase used to identify how God will be the one and only true Messiah - God (Messenger YHWH) coming as a son of man to mankind. God (Yah) manifest in the flesh - Isa 12:2 NKJV, Isa 26:4 NKJV -

6- Son of God - is a phrase that also conveys this theme: God sent the Son of Man so we can be Adopted as his his sons and daughters setting up and establishing the Kingdom of God.

7- Son of God title - shows Jesus is 100 percent God and the Son of Man title shows that Jesus will be 100 percent man at the same time - the new doorway back to God...

This is what set the Religious Leaders in a frenzy and falsely charged Jesus with Blaspheme because Jesus referred to Himself as both Son of God and Son of Man, both well known titles mentioned within the scriptures referring to the divine Messiah, Isa 9:6,7, Isa 43:10. They could not handle that as they thought the Messiah would be someone quite different and do things their way.

They put him to death for claiming to be God - the Presence (panyim) that led the people out of Egypt, who met with Adam. Abraham, Manoah, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, seen by Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, spoken about in the scriptures who would come as the SON OF MAN - SON OF GOD. They used the Law of Blaspheme against Jesus and neglected the evidence of his miracles, healings, sayings, warnings, promises, etc, because he didn't line up with how they thought the Messiah would be and come to justify their piousness. People attempt to do so today and Questor is one such example of this...

So read my post above Paul's, Questor, and stop playing games with your eternity - you are no longer ignorant...
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