Must Jesus be God..

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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1over137
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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby 1over137 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:57 pm

Also put it together with this from John 1

The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own,[b] and his own people[c] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[d] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,[e] who is at the Father's side,[f] he has made him known.

---

Here's an honest question that I have been struggling to resolve in my heart, because lately I have been like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind on the matter.


When such times arrive again, stick to the Bible. Spend time with God.

Blessinsg.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold
-- Psalm 18:2

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby Stu » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:20 am

I don't get why people can't just help this guy out with specific passages in the Bible. Weird.
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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby LittleHamster » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:22 am

Don't forget B.W.'s short thread ...."Basic Theology: Jesus is God"

There are plenty of scriptural quotes in it:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=39730

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby Lonewolf » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:23 pm

There's a little of bit of going off track on the question, it is not whether Jesus is or isn't God; the question is whether Jesus had to be God in order for the atonement to be perfect and valid?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby Lonewolf » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:29 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Lonewolf wrote:Quite the opposite, I don't consider you much other than for arguments sake, therefore I asked from you to show me the indisputable scripture and then maybe, just maybe your credibility will make it's mark on me ~> because so far, I've yet to feel the humbleness in your faith!


You are quite funny! :pound:

I'm not going to do the work for you, so if no one gives you specific passages in answer to your question, you'll have to continue drifting without a compass or an anchor.

You might want to consider getting yourself a good concordance, as well as a topical dictionary and a Bible dictionary. These are the most basic of tools for the curious Christian. They cost very little and can be purchased at any Christian bookstore, or on http://www.christianbook.com

You'll retain more if you do the research yourself. Good luck.

FL :D


I'm not asking you to do anything for me other than to ignore my posts and questions.

Can you do that?

I don't understand why it is necessary to inject yourself in any topic that I start when all you want to do is put people down?

Why can't you just have the intelligent attitude of not saying anything if you don't want to have a sane conversation with me?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby Lonewolf » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:33 pm

1over137 wrote:Also put it together with this from John 1

The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people[c] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[d] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,[e] who is at the Father's side,[f] he has made him known.

---

Here's an honest question that I have been struggling to resolve in my heart, because lately I have been like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind on the matter.


When such times arrive again, stick to the Bible. Spend time with God.

Blessinsg.



[b]Thank you madam, but there's a little bit of going off track on the question, it is not whether Jesus is or isn't God; the question is whether Jesus had to be God in order for the atonement to be perfect and valid?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:48 pm

Lonewolf wrote:I'm not asking you to do anything for me other than to ignore my posts and questions. Can you do that? I don't understand why it is necessary to inject yourself in any topic that I start when all you want to do is put people down? Why can't you just have the intelligent attitude of not saying anything if you don't want to have a sane conversation with me?


You're the one with the problem, Buddy, so do what you have to do to ignore me. I'm staying just the way I am.

A Christian who gives up reading the Bible and puts his trust in books of theology is asking for problems. I've been telling you since you got here to read the Bible. Do that with regularity and you'll develop a relationship with Christ instead of the relationship with Questionning you now seem to have.

FL :shakehead:
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby Lonewolf » Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:27 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Lonewolf wrote:I'm not asking you to do anything for me other than to ignore my posts and questions. Can you do that? I don't understand why it is necessary to inject yourself in any topic that I start when all you want to do is put people down? Why can't you just have the intelligent attitude of not saying anything if you don't want to have a sane conversation with me?


You're the one with the problem, Buddy, so do what you have to do to ignore me. I'm staying just the way I am.

A Christian who gives up reading the Bible and puts his trust in books of theology is asking for problems. I've been telling you since you got here to read the Bible. Do that with regularity and you'll develop a relationship with Christ instead of the relationship with Questionning you now seem to have.

FL :shakehead:



I don't understand why you insist FL? Why?

I'm sure that you would like the whole wide world to read the Bible and understand the scripture as you do. That's is fine and dandy. I read it, and on much scripture I'm sure that I understand things as you do, but not everything. Some scripture is either not as clear to me or, I completely understand it differently than you or others. But either way, whether I understand as you do or not, I don't condemn you or anyone, neither do I wish to attack you or anyone. I simply trod on, for I am but a man with many errors. and until my Lord receives me into His Glory, I will have struggles and I will have many questions.
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:50 pm

Lonewolf wrote:I don't understand why you insist FL? Why?


I'm not insisting about anything. It's all in your head.

Lonewolf wrote:I'm sure that you would like the whole wide world to read the Bible and understand the scripture as you do.


No. Stop assuming stuff.

Lonewolf wrote:Some scripture is either not as clear to me or, I completely understand it differently than you or others. But either way, whether I understand as you do or not, I don't condemn you or anyone, neither do I wish to attack you or anyone.


Scripture is quite clear, and simple to understand. ''When the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense'' is a rule you should adopt instead of trying to shoehorn your humanist worldview into the biblical message.

And for the record, I don't feel attacked by you. Or insulted. Or slighted. I am not a wimp!

Lonewolf wrote: ... I am but a man with many errors. and until my Lord receives me into His Glory, I will have struggles and I will have many questions.


I'm not really into melodrama but, yes, the above quote is an accurate reflection of what will happen to most people. You can have an easier time in life by adopting a correct hermenutic and sticking to reading the Bible over and over and over again until its message sinks in. Keep a journal while reading it, build up your own topical index in a binder like I do. And at the very least, get yourself a Bible dictionary and a concordence.

FL :D
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby Lonewolf » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:15 pm

LOL, alright Mr. Christian thug and bully you., keep showing that deeply felt love of Christ in you, I'm sure that you sleep very well at night with your journal by your side. Ey, but thanks for the lecture, thanks for nothing. Great job in teaching.

I do feel attacked by you, and I have both communicated that to you and the moderators, but apparently to no avail. Am I really to believe and take heed from those like you who preach one thing but display another thing?

You sir have a problem, and I do not believe that it is on account of your age. You really should seek medication, because apparently whomever it is you're praying to, obviously it's not working, unless it is the devil you commend yourself to.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you shall know them" (Matthew 7:13-20).


Where is your good fruit, FL? I don't read it in your words, and neither do I perceive it in your hostile attitude towards me. You're like a monkey on my back.

Other folks here I have had decent back and forth communication. BW takes his time responding to my inquiries, and addresses them properly. I don't agree with some of the points of understanding that he has, but I neither disrespect him, nor has he ever disrespected me. Same thing with Paul, every time Paul responds to a post or question of mine, he does it in good spirit. And Phillip, even though from the beginning he and I had a little disagreement on some use of terms concerning immigrants of an undocumented nature, he never used that to even remotely continue in any type of harassment towards me. I can go on an on with folks here left and right, and none of them have displayed such an ugly attitude such as you. You imply that I am a wimp, well sir, I consider that an insult without cause, and if you and me were out on the street, you know we could settle that insult a different way, but since sitting behind a computer people do take liberties in how brave they speak, well, it is what it is.

I have asked you repeatedly to reserve yourself from having the need to respond to any question that I may ask, but you have refused to keep yourself intact, instead, I am the one who is supposed to ignore your belittling responses. You have caused me great anger, and truth be told, I don't get angry that easy, but you've managed to do it time after time again. I hope that when we get to heaven or hell, wherever we end up meeting, that there's a boxers ring available, and in good sportsmanship, and in a good devil or angel fashion, we can resolve our differences the old manly way.
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby 1over137 » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:36 pm

Lonewolf, does not Hebrews 9-10 speak about Jesus doing away with sin once and for all?
Verse 4 says that blood of animals cannot cover sins.
In Hebrews 9:23 I read that heavenly things must be cleansed with better sacrifices.
Which sacrifice is better than earthly one?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold
-- Psalm 18:2

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby RickD » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:16 am

Lonewolf,

The way it works on this forum, is if you want to ignore a certain member's posts, go into your control panel, go to "manage foes", and enter the member's name. Then that member's posts won't be fully visible. If someone else quotes that member's post, I believe you will see it. Keep in mind, you cannot ignore moderators.
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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:06 am

You are not making any sense, Lonewolf. You would do well to read your own signature line: it applies to you.

In the meantime, do what RickD suggests.

FL :amen:
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:17 am

Lonewolf wrote:Here's an honest question that I have been struggling to resolve in my heart, because lately I have been like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind on the matter. As I have stated before, I have always been a Christian, first of the Catholic faith upbringing, and since my mid-teens as a born again Christian -granted that I went astray and for many years I strayed from fellowship with a congregation; even so, I have always believed Christ Jesus to be our one and only sole redeemer, and no one, absolutely no one comes to the father unless by Him. I have always believed our Lord Jesus Christ to be God in the flesh., God with us (Emmanuel), and that His perfect atonement is made perfect being that He is God and thus the perfect sacrifice. I have even argued and firmly stated (versus others) that if Jesus Christ is not God, then the atonement cannot be perfect, for only a perfect being can redeem the unperfect. But lately, because of my inquiring mind, and the habit that I have of reading everything that I can get my eyes on pertaining to Christian theology of all sorts, I have come across those teachings and readings that talk about the Oneness of God, and that Jesus even though God's Son, He is nevertheless begotten, and not necessarily God Himself without the Father. Some very convincing points I have read and talked about with some, so now I find myself a little shaken in my stance, therefore I ask the following question in order to hopefully find some answers that will help me in my struggle as a man of little faith.

Q: Is it necessary for Jesus Christ to be God in order for the atonement to be valid?



It is important to understand what it means when we say GOD.
It is not only a title but also a personal reference, a name even for some.
People tend to do this association:
God = The father.
Then the confusion sets in when Jesus is also God because then the associate God= The Father, Jesus = God so Jesus = The father....see the mess?
God is what The father IS, what Jesus IS and what the HS IS. To say that Jesus is God is a statement of Hid divine nature, not His name or WHO He is, but WHAT Jesus is.
You can NOT have God without The father or The son or the HS, it does not work that way.
There was no time that The Father existed without the Son or the HS.
WHY?
Because if He had existed only 'by himself" then He would NOT have been GOD since He would NOT have been complete and be relational and His love would have been self-centered AND He would have been "missing" something so that He had/wanted to "beget" a Son.
See the issue?

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Re: Must Jesus be God..

Postby Philip » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:16 am

There was no time that The Father existed without the Son or the HS.
There was no time The Father existed without the Son or the HS


True!

WHY?
Because if He had existed only 'by himself" then He would NOT have been GOD since He would NOT have been complete and relational and His love would have been self-centered AND He would have been "missing" something so that He had/wanted to "beget" a Son.
See the issue?


While the comment about God being relational within His Trinity is true, it is not the answer to the asserted reason as to "why?" God is composed of what He is. While I'm pretty sure he knows it, Paul's answer appears to suggest that somehow God BECAME what He is so as to be relational and not be self-centered or to any way be lacking. The simple reason that God is the way He is, is that He simply IS, and that His attributes have eternally existed and that His will as to what He ultimately values has NEVER changed. That's why He is "The Great I Am!"


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