Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby RickD » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:12 am

Philip wrote:
If no revelation comes, then she has not believed in the heart to righteousness as <a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Romans%2010.8-13" data-reference="Romans 10.8-13" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">Romans 10:8-13</a> states, and she is not saved. If that is the case, you still have a task to do.


And so therein is the question - meaning one cannot assume either way. B.W., what you are asserting is that one can be saved BEFORE understanding Jesus to be God, but that they will definitely understand this at some point before death. I'm not so sure about this BEFORE thing, as I believe one must believe Jesus is God before GOD considers them saved. Now, does not the Lord know what everyone's fate is - and that He has ALWAYS known it? Of course! So, and as you mentioned, our response should be to react as if we don't KNOW them to be saved - because WE don't and can't.

Absolutely Philip!!!!

If someone says they believe in a different Christ, it's logical to believe they are not saved. Then we can show them the real Christ from scripture.

It's a great gauge we can use to see if someone is preaching a different gospel. Just ask them who Christ is.
1 Corinthians 1:9
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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby Philip » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:27 am

If someone says they believe in a different Christ, it's logical to believe they are not saved. Then we can show them the real Christ from scripture.

It's a great gauge we can use to see if someone is preaching a different gospel. Just ask them who Christ is.


EXACTLY, Rick! It's not a matter of what they truly or sincerely believe, but a question of whether WHO they sincerely believe in is THE Truth, and as He actually is, positionally. Is the object of their faith an accurate belief in Who Jesus really is? I think that's critical. Now, is there not a sequence to how such proper belief is arrived at? No question! But there IS a sequence, and one can't put the cart before the horse in how they view Jesus and still be saved. I don't believe Scripture teaches this.

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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby melanie » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:29 pm

FlawedIntellect wrote:
melanie wrote:
FlawedIntellect wrote:
melanie wrote:Scripture makes it very clear.
Nobody gets to the Father but through Jesus.
We must acknowledge, believe that Jesus paid our price on that cross.
The bible does NOT say that to be saved we must believe in the trinity and state that Jesus is God.
It simply doesn't.
If it was the requirement of salvation, that we must state this exactly,
God would have told us.
People can argue that theologically it's obvious, and I personally believe wholeheartedly in Jesus' Divinity, but the bible tells us;
Love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbour. The two greatest commandments.
And believe that Jesus paid our price on the cross.
Scripture. Truth. Salvation.
No-where does it say we Must profess Jesus to be God to be saved. We may understand that to be true. But thank goodness The Almighty knows and sees our weaknesses and our human inability to grasp the divine and exercises His mind boggling grace and mercy anyway.

Would you want to be around someone who loves you for what you're not?

Or would you want someone to accept you for what and who you are?

God accepts people for what and who they are. The problem is that most don't accept God for who and what he is. Those who deny that Jesus is God are the ones whom are limiting God.

By denying his Godhood, one is essentially denying that he is the Savior. It's a contradiction to call him "savior" and the way to God, and yet to deny that Jesus is God. In short, such people are not truly accepting Jesus, because they're not accepting him for who he is. They're accepting a lie. They are rejecting him.

Do you believe that Jesus is who he claimed to be or not? That is the question.

Also, isn't scripture our source of information on who and what God is, his nature?

I get what you're trying to say, but you're still missing the point.

If you're worried that scripture can be taken out of context to give false justification to hurting people, well, that does happen. However, to know if it's what's happening, take it on a case-by-case basis rather than already starting with the assumption that it is the case.

As best as I can tell, that's not what's happening here right now.
No one's trying to hurt anyone here, but rather this thread is for discussion to bring clarity and help.

Please bare that in mind.

Also, a line needs to be drawn somewhere on what qualifies as salvation.


That is the question?
What I believe?
I don't think that was the question actually lol
Unless of course you have made it so, if that's the case, I think it's kinda obvious.
A line needs to be drawn, by whom, by you? By man? I think we should leave salvation up to God, He's pretty good at it. Much better than you or I.
I never assumed anyone was getting hurt?? Or taking scripture out of context to hurt others, or using this thread topic to hurt others? So no, I'm not worried, Phillip seems to me to be a smart, kind man, I'm sure he isn't out to hurt but to help. Phillip asked 'but I wanted to see how others would respond' well that was my response. As you said, it's a discussion. That's what people do, put their opinion out there, and not everyone agrees. It's okay. We don't have too.
I get very clearly what is being said, I haven't missed the point, I just have a slightly different point. Again, it's okay. Not an attack on anyone, just my opinion.
Scripture is a very good way to know Gods nature, as is His Holy Spirit, that lives inside us. A lot can be learnt from being 'with' Him, being in His presence, in His love. I have learnt the most of His nature from my relationship with our Father. He teaches and I learn, and the biggest most important thing I have learnt is of His love, compassion and forgiveness. It has brought me to my knees, a few times I have sobbed like a big ole baby, because His love overwhelms me.
His nature is LOVE. That knows no limitations or boundaries.

My apologies, I must've jumped the gun a little. X3
As per the question I presented, I intended for the word "you" to be more general, and not aimed specifically at you, Mel. The more I think about it, though, salvation is not about understanding who God is perfectly from the start, else there'd be little room for a relationship to grow. However, there is a baseline of understanding that's necessary. Jesus claimed to be more than a prophet, and also to not simply be just the Son of God, but rather his claim to sonship was a claim to be God. (Plus, he said some interesting things when he dealt with temptation in the desert.)

The matter of where the line is drawn is determined by God, and insight as to where he draws the line is demonstrated in scripture. Which is why some of the members brought up scripture in the discussion.

Anyway, I'm sorry for (ironically) jumping to conclusions, in an attempt to try to prevent you from jumping to conclusions.


No worries FlawedIntellect :)
I actually realised that I had missed the point. I thought Phillip was speaking of a women he knew that had a friend who had died, and she was having a hard time thinking about her friends belief who had passed away. That was not what Philip was saying and I'm not quite sure after reading it again how I thought that?? That was why I said just give her hope. If I had of realised that it would have changed my response somewhat but not the principal of what I was trying to say.
I believe that Jesus is the son of God and by authority of the Father ruling with Him, at His right side, with the same purpose, same nature and as my saviour and king, I worship both My Father and my Lord Jesus. I am not a trinitarian. For the same reason I am not a catholic, or Lutheran (as I was baptised), or a baptist, or a Jehovah witness. I am a Christian. I follow no man made doctrine. And I'll be damned if anyone says that I have to. I follow scripture. And scripture alone. Not a doctrine made in the 4th century, under much debate and controversy by the Catholic Church. I believe they have it somewhat right. But I am quite comfortable with my own interpretation of scripture based solely on the word of God.
Jesus is asked directly in Luke 10:25 what must I do to inherit eternal life?
He asked the man well what do you think? What is written in the law? (Jesus came to fulfil the law, not do away with it)
The man answered "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
This is scripture. Jesus' words. It is truth. The only truth, that will enable everyone to inherit the kingdom.
I had some Jehovah witnesses come to my doorstep a little while back. I didn't argue with them. I asked them "do you believe you must believe in the bible in the way that is interpreted by the Jehovah witnesses in order to be truly saved?"
They stated going into their beliefs, I stopped them and asked the same question again. They said "yes". That is my deal breaker. Right there. That is why I have walked away from the church. That is why I walk away from most christians. The notion that one must believe in a doctrine of man, I don't care what that doctrine is, to be saved, is the most gravest error any Christian could fall into. I'm not saying believe in cults, they have not adhered to scripture, no brainer. I'm not saying believe in Jesus as a just a prophet, that is also not scriptural. The bible gives us the answers. Believe that Jesus is the son of God, who sacrificed Himself so that we might be saved, love God with everything we have to give, and love everyone around us.
No one, not the JW, not the trinitarians, no one can produced a man-made doctrine, by the interpretation of man and wave it around and say 'you must believe in this otherwise your going to hell'. That is why even though I do believe Jesus rules with Father as God, I do not call myself a trinitarian, I distance myself from any dogma that claims you must believe what we say in order to be saved. Jesus tells me very clearly in scripture what I must do in order to be saved.
I reject any notion that a Christian must believe in the trinity to be considered a Christian.
I don't need the catholic packaged version of God, I can use scripture for that.
If this women believes that Jesus is the Son of God sent to wash us clean, who sits at the right hand of God. Then she is saved. Period. Why?. Because that is what scripture tells us. The trinitarian doctrine may not. But that is not our authority.
Why must Man complicate what is so very clear in scripture? Besides the fact that to wave your finger around and say that others are not saved is presumptuous, self-righteous and arrogant. The rod that we use to judge others is the rod that will be used against us. I just hope that everyone has interpreted scripture perfectly, without error, that they have interpreted God in his magnificence and sometimes confusing awesomeness to our weak humble minds also perfectly, because if you use your interpretation to damn others to hell, you better make damn sure you have it spot on yourself.

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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby Philip » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:58 pm

So, Melanie, what you apparently believe is that it is unnecessary to believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved. Do YOU not also believe Jesus is God? Remember, those of Jesus day claimed to believe in the Father while not accepting Jesus as God - which He very clearly claimed to be. In fact, THAT is the very reason they wanted to kill him. Why do you think those in various cults are not considered Christians, as many of them believe in a Jesus who they do not also consider to be God? And this "doctrine" you claim to be only of man is taught by Scripture itself.

Scriptures directly showing Jesus to be God:


"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

"I and the Father are One.” (John 10:30)

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'" (John 14:10-11)

"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men." (Philippians 2:5-7)

"... looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:14)

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory." (Timothy 3:16)

"To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of [b]our God and Savior
Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1)

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (John 8:58) (And so immediately understanding He was claiming to be God) "So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple." (John 8:59) And, so just exactly Who is and what did Jesus mean by calling Himself "I Am?" They very clearly understood what Jesus was claiming (thus their response): "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

If it is God Who enables one to come to belief (and He does so for all Whom sincerely desire to and are so Willing to respond to His prompting), do you really think He would not also have them understand clearly that Jesus is also God?

So, the teaching that Jesus is clearly God is SCRIPTURAL; it's not simply man-made doctrine. And so my question is, what distinguishes those in cults who reject Jesus as God from Christians, if not their failure to embrace Jesus as God? Do you really think one can deny Jesus to be God and truly be a Christian? Scriptures please - not just opinion.

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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby RickD » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:57 am

Melanie,

I'm not quite sure why you're against the Trinity. Did you have some kind of experience with a cult or a group that believed in the trinity, but was aberrant in some other way?

The doctrine of the trinity, is simply the biblical doctrine that explains that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God. I guess you could say the doctrine itself is man made, but the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one God in three persons, isn't man made whatsoever. The doctrine of the trinity just explains God in a way we can try to understand.

Usually from my experience, those that don't believe in the trinity, have a problem with the deity of Christ. Is that where your issue lies? If so, we can help you work through this from scripture.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby jlay » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:56 am

Philip wrote:What would you say to one that believes a close relative is saved because she (apparently, "sincerely" (?) prayed for Jesus to save her, and of her desire to follow Him, and for forgiveness of her sins - and yet that person has stated that she does not yet understand Jesus to be God - (she sees Him as only the son (and of non Deity) of God the Father). Responses, please.

Now, I know what I think (and have already offered my view), but I wanted to see how others might respond. It's a very sensitive subject, as my friend so wants to know that the person in question is truly saved, and even suggesting the mere possibility that this is not so has brought considerable anger - to which I responded that, "it's not about YOU, what you think, your feelings, or what you'd LIKE to be the truth, but about Scripture and whatever the reality of the situation actually happens to be" - a direct response, perhaps, but politely put.


I think it's good to ask questions.
-Do you believe that Jesus has the authority and power to forgive your sins?
-And you want to follow Christ?
-The Bible communicates that knowing Christ is not only essential to our salvation, but also to help us follow Him. If we agree that the bible is the authority on revealing who Christ is, what He said and what He did, then maybe we can look at some things together. Would that be OK?


A person does not have to have a working knowledge of the trinity to be saved. I trust and know more about Christ today than the day I was saved. Paul prayed for us to grow in our knowledge and understanding of the Lord. That's a great place to start.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby Philip » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:04 am

jLay: "A person does not have to have a working knowledge of the trinity to be saved. I trust and know more about Christ today than the day I was saved. Paul prayed for us to grow in our knowledge and understanding of the Lord. That's a great place to start."


Well, the Trinity is a bit more obscure to understand and is not nearly as obvious. But, jLay, are you saying a person can be saved who doesn't yet recognize Jesus as being God? IF so, I see that to be a very dangerous and unScriptural claim. Yes, there is a santification and growing process in learning to Jesus. But what Jesus a person follows must be recognized as God, else they have faith in the wrong guy. And what if they NEVER come to believe He is God? Even if they continue to believe He is the non-Deity son of God? And how is that any different than what the cults believe?

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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby jlay » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:46 am

Philip wrote:
jLay: "A person does not have to have a working knowledge of the trinity to be saved. I trust and know more about Christ today than the day I was saved. Paul prayed for us to grow in our knowledge and understanding of the Lord. That's a great place to start."


Well, the Trinity is a bit more obscure to understand and is not nearly as obvious. But, jLay, are you saying a person can be saved who doesn't yet recognize Jesus as being God? IF so, I see that to be a very dangerous and unScriptural claim. Yes, there is a santification and growing process in learning to Jesus. But what Jesus a person follows must be recognized as God, else they have faith in the wrong guy. And what if they NEVER come to believe He is God? Even if they continue to believe He is the non-Deity son of God? And how is that any different than what the cults believe?


Wow, talk about ungrateful for good advice. y/:) Way to read more into something than is there Philip.
The reason we ask questions is to learn more about what the person actually believes. They may very well have a simple childlike faith, which is all that is necessary to receive Christ. Or, they may have been preached "another Christ" such as through Mormonism or JWs. Those questions should reveal that very quick. you didn't mention that, so i didn't jump to those conclusions.

John himself said, I write these things that you many know that Jesus is the Christ (messiah), the son of the living God. Even the disciples, who were taught first hand by Jesus did not fully grasp his deity while he was with them, and you know good and well this is the case. It wasn't until his post resurrection teaching that they began to fully comprehend His divine nature. (Thomas said, "my Lord and my God.")
I apologize, but there wasn't enough in your OP to determine this regarding your friend. There is a difference between ignorance, confusion and outright denial.
A person does not have to have a Western, systematic understanding of the Bible to become a believer. And when you ask can they become a believer without recognizing Jesus as God, then I would want to know EXACTLY what they mean by that. When I became a believer, you could have asked me, "Is Jesus God?" I'd have likely said, "yes," but i wouldn't be able to defend or articulate the position. We often forget how influenced we are by the systematic and categorical study of scripture, which would have been foreign to the 1st century believers. If she has a properly placed faith, then proper instruction should continue to lead her into the truth. if she was preached a Jesus that was not of the Word, then her faith was misappropriated.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby B. W. » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:59 am

y*-:)
Philip wrote:
If no revelation comes, then she has not believed in the heart to righteousness as Romans 10:8-13 states, and she is not saved. If that is the case, you still have a task to do.


And so therein is the question - meaning one cannot assume either way. B.W., what you are asserting is that one can be saved BEFORE understanding Jesus to be God, but that they will definitely understand this at some point before death. I'm not so sure about this BEFORE thing, as I believe one must believe Jesus is God before GOD considers them saved. Now, does not the Lord know what everyone's fate is - and that He has ALWAYS known it? Of course! So, and as you mentioned, our response should be to react as if we don't KNOW them to be saved - because WE don't and can't.


I am not sure what happened but my response to this vanished... I thought it was posted a day ago but maybe the old geezer in me selected the preview button instead of submit. y:O2

So I'll try again:

What I am trying to say, is this: Trust the Holy Spirit to testify of Jesus. Face it, the concept of the Trinity is a great mystery and often people come to Christ and believe in him but do not comprehend the Trinity. If one is truly saved in this manner, the Holy Spirit will in time reveal either through direct revelation such as by reading a verse like - Titus 2:13 - and realize who Jesus is, or the Holy Spirit will use others to teach them in various ways. The Holy Spirit will testify who Jesus is to them. So the question actually comes to this Phil - Do you trust the Holy Spirit to reveal who Jesus is or do you think he is too weak and inept to do this however he so wills?

Back to your relative Phil, if she really believed in Jesus, then she will come to the conclusion mentioned in Titus 2:13. If not, and she resists this with venom, then, she is not saved at all. So, try to share with her a verse such as Titus 2:13 and see what she says and responds. After all, the bible mentions for us to test all things. I do trust the Holy Spirit to reveal / testify who Jesus is to those truly born again either right away or a bit later as it is inevitable for this to happen and that is what I was saying.

All things work together for good for those who love the Lord so the miss-posting the first time a day ago now comes clear why - for those who have difficulty understanding who Jesus is and why the Trinity please read the following below:

What does Titus 2:13 say too you about Jesus: "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus," NASB

There are various websites that use analogies to help one understand the Godhead. One such illustration is of a lake during a late cold fall day. The Lake has water, Ice, and also has vapor rising from it. The ice and vapor are the same substance as water, yet, each is different in duties. The Water provides life and can change landscapes, the Ice can crack open the hardest and biggest of stones, carve out valleys, and the vapor provides rain to maintain life around the lake. All three are one essence, water, but each has differing duties (persons if you will).

Likewise the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same essence (the Godhead - Rom 1:20, Col 2:9). God is Spirit, so God's spiritual essence is of three co-equal, co-eternal, persons each who has duties within the Godhead. This is how God revealed himself in the old testament and can remain true to his own words in the absolute sense that there are none like him. Think of Jesus as the Vapor, giving life to the world and the Holy Spirit cracking the hardest of hearts towards God and that might help you gain insight who Jesus is in the Oneness of the essence of the Godhead Trinity.

Both the Son and Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and are revealed in the OT that way too. Jesus the Word became flesh (John 1:1.2,3,14) known also as the expression of the living wisdom of God and the Holy Spirit who is the living expression of the power and establishing work of God's will. The Father is the source. The three agree as one and are one and like that lake example exists in the oneness of three. In nature, we see this oneness of three all around us - Rom 1:20 (an egg has a shell, white, and the yoke yet the three make the egg one - a tree has bark, sap, and leaves - three as one)

Now please read the following to help further clarify: "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9 NASB

See also Isaiah 46:5, Deut 33:26 - therefore God's oneness is unlike our concept of oneness in order for there to be truly no one like him...

Isaiah 45:18 makes it clear that God is speaking in the following verses:

Isaiah 45:21-22, "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. 22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other." NASB

Please note there is no other savior other than God and Titus 2:13 says what?

Isa 45:23-25, "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength (power).' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. 25 "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory." NASB

Jesus is known as the Word become flesh in John 1:1, 2, 3, 14c and notice the verses above again and what do you see?

John 1:12,13 and Philippians 2:6-11 may help.

Please note what 1 Co 1:30 says and Philippians 1:11 mentions and compare this to verse 24 from Isaiah quoted above. What do you see? and add to this Acts 1:8 concerning power/strength... what do you see?

The doctrine of the Trinity is not from man as no man could envision God's oneness in this manner and came about as a means to keep the - no one like God - pure in a manner that helps simplfy identifying error from truth about God's nature (essence). Hope this helps...
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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby Philip » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:31 am

jLay, I certainly meant no disrespect, but wanted you to clarify.

So the question actually comes to this Phil - Do you trust the Holy Spirit to reveal who Jesus is or do you think he is too weak and inept to do this however he so wills?


No question, that this will happen and that God will do this for any true believer. But the question - at least from our point of view - should be: Has that yet happened? If we don't see evidence that God has revealed this to a person, and they don't yet have such an understanding, at BEST, we could say that this may well happen in their future, but, at present, has not yet. Which leads me to believe they are not YET saved but MIGHT become so in the future.

Back to your relative Phil, if she really believed in Jesus, then she will come to the conclusion mentioned in Titus 2:13. If not, and she resists this with venom, then, she is not saved at all.


And I agree with that. It's just I would not declare or accept one's salvation to be a fact until the person recognizes Jesus as God - and not UNTIL then. Some here seem to want to assert one is saved BEFORE a person's recognition and belief in Jesus' Deity. But how can one say that about ANYONE - as WE certainly can't KNOW it to be fact until such a person acknowledges belief in Jesus as God? As Rick said, this is the determining characteristic in how we can tell if one is truly saved.

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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby OnceSaved » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:31 pm

What if when you first believed, you believed that JC was God but then as the years went by you don't believe JC to be God anymore, but yet you still believe in his atonement and the salvation that comes through him, are you still saved or not?
God Himself does not propose to judge a man until he is dead. So why should you?

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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby RickD » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:28 am

OnceSaved wrote:What if when you first believed, you believed that JC was God but then as the years went by you don't believe JC to be God anymore, but yet you still believe in his atonement and the salvation that comes through him, are you still saved or not?

Hypothetically, yes.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:32 am

Lucky for us that God decides who is saved and not men.
Lucky for us that salvation is based on what Christ has done for us and not some man made doctrine that barely scratches what God truly is.
Lucky for us that Salvation is based on our faith in Jesus Christ and not the doctrine of men.
Lucky for us that faith and love and not complete understanding of God's nature is what God asks of Us.

I believed in Christ and proclaimed Him Lord LONG BEFORE I ever truly understood AND accepted the Trinity doctrine.

I think it is important for us always to remember that belief in doctrine is not a acquirement for salvation, only belief in Christ.

It is also important to understand that grasping a doctrine that is OPEN ADMITTED to be difficult to grasp is great BUT not grasping is simply means that, that the person does NOT understand the words of men trying to describe the indescribable , the NATURE OF GOD.

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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby Philip » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:07 am

it is important for us always to remember that belief in doctrine is not a acquirement for salvation, only belief in Christ.


True statement, as long as it is THE Christ Whom is also God! Otherwise, there is a lengthy list of those in cults that we would also have to consider to be Christians. Again, what is the defining salvation difference between a Jehovah's witness and any Christian? JWs believe Jesus is a created being and is Michael the Archangel. They do not worship Him. They don't believe in Christ’s substitutionary atonement and instead hold to a ransom theory, that Jesus’ death was a ransom payment for Adam’s sin. But they DO believe in Jesus and that He is God's Son. So, according to those asserting that ONLY belief in Jesus being God's Son is sufficient for salvation, why not the Jehovah's Witness, as the believe in Jesus as God's Son - do they just have some mixed up theological beliefs? Do these wrong beliefs about Jesus matter per salvation? And I could add a list of others to that question. Does someone think that God's Spirit opened their eyes to belief, only to blind them to the reality of Whom Jesus truly is, or He remains unconcerned about their wrong beliefs over Whom He is?

And let's not forget, those in the cults blatantly DENY that Jesus is God. So they're wrong about the Deity thing but that doesn't really matter? :shakehead:

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Re: Accepted Jesus, But Doesn't Believe He's God

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:48 am

Philip wrote:
it is important for us always to remember that belief in doctrine is not a acquirement for salvation, only belief in Christ.


True statement, as long as it is THE Christ Whom is also God! Otherwise, there is a lengthy list of those in cults that we would also have to consider to be Christians. Again, what is the defining salvation difference between a Jehovah's witness and any Christian? JWs believe Jesus is a created being and is Michael the Archangel. They do not worship Him. They don't believe in Christ’s substitutionary atonement and instead hold to a ransom theory, that Jesus’ death was a ransom payment for Adam’s sin. But they DO believe in Jesus and that He is God's Son. So, according to those asserting that ONLY belief in Jesus being God's Son is sufficient for salvation, why not the Jehovah's Witness, as the believe in Jesus as God's Son - do they just have some mixed up theological beliefs? Do these wrong beliefs about Jesus matter per salvation? And I could add a list of others to that question. Does someone think that God's Spirit opened their eyes to belief, only to blind them to the reality of Whom Jesus truly is, or He remains unconcerned about their wrong beliefs over Whom He is?

And let's not forget, those in the cults blatantly DENY that Jesus is God. So they're wrong about the Deity thing but that doesn't really matter? :shakehead:


Yes, it is very crucial to believe in the correct Christ, of that there is no doubt.
The JW's are a fine example of what NOT to believe, their understanding of Christ is quite incorrect.

That isn't really the issue here though and for many, the Trinity doctrine is a tough one to understand and, to be honest, very few people DO understand it.
Let us not forget that there is scriptural proof ( and yes, you all know how much I dislike proof texting) behind the unitarian view that Jesus is NOT God in the same way His Father is ( and Yes I know that is based on faulty understanding and interpretation but try convincing THEM of that).
The reason that the Trinity doctrine is so hard for many is because the language is antiquated and hellenistic and, well, just doesn't make sense for many.
We can get into that argument in regards to baptisim and predestination and etc, etc...

The important point is to try to make people understand what it means to say that CHrist is God because the ONE thing that all people that have issues with the Trinity say is that what THAT means to THEM is that Christ is His Own Father (God = The Father).


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