Jehovah witnesses

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
1stjohn0666
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby 1stjohn0666 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:52 am

Sam1995 wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:When the word Elohim is used in the scriptures, it is used of the one true God and of false gods. There is no differentiation of the term unless verbs are supplied (which they are) I, He, Him...etc meaning that "the plural" Elohim is being used in a singular sense. Also in Psalm 82:6 we find Elohim being used of people "who are NOT God!!
Elohim is an elastic term with a certain ambiguity that can mean "the ONE TRUE GOD" and others "who are NOT GOD"
YHWH never has any ambiguity because YHWH is the proper name of the one true God!!


This doesn't work at all and if you can't see why John, then you need to go back to school and be taught english literature again! :lol:

SB


Why would Moses, judges, and humans be called "Elohim" when in fact these persons are NOT God!! Exodus 7:1 Moses is Elohim with the verb to say that Elohim is used in the singular sense.

Here is what the Hebrew says:
ויאמר יהוה אל־משה ראה נתתיך אלהים לפרעה ואהרן אחיך יהיה נביאך׃
Here is the transliteration for a way to pronounce these words:
va.yo.mer a.do.nai el-mo.she re.e ne.ta.ti.kha e.lo.him le.far.o ve.a.ha.ron a.khi.kha yih.ye ne.vi.e.kha:
NOTE: the word "like or as" is NOT in the text!! so saying "like Elohim", or "as Elohim" is completely absent from the text.
Another Note: EVERY word that we read in say the KJV that is in italics is absent from the text and only "inserted" for translation purposes or even that of the misleading and inappropriate translator bias!!

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:23 am

FYI, the KJV is NOT as up to date in terms of its; source material as the NASB for example.
The KJV is based solely on the Textus Recpetus which has been shown to NOT be based on the most ancient ( close to the source) manuscripts.
http://bible.cc/exodus/7-1.htm

Careful to NOT put YOUR preconceived notions into the verse YOU are quoting.
By the way, no Jewish scholar would translate or interpret that verse in the way you did.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby B. W. » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:50 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Why would Moses, judges, and humans be called "Elohim" when in fact these persons are NOT God!! Exodus 7:1 Moses is Elohim with the verb to say that Elohim is used in the singular sense.

Here is what the Hebrew says:
ויאמר יהוה אל־משה ראה נתתיך אלהים לפרעה ואהרן אחיך יהיה נביאך׃
Here is the transliteration for a way to pronounce these words:
va.yo.mer a.do.nai el-mo.she re.e ne.ta.ti.kha e.lo.him le.far.o ve.a.ha.ron a.khi.kha yih.ye ne.vi.e.kha:
NOTE: the word "like or as" is NOT in the text!! so saying "like Elohim", or "as Elohim" is completely absent from the text.
Another Note: EVERY word that we read in say the KJV that is in italics is absent from the text and only "inserted" for translation purposes or even that of the misleading and inappropriate translator bias!!


Here is your the answer from this Link:

http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/ex7-1.html

Is Moses (a) god?

A Muslim argument for Bible corruption:
http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/ex7-1.html

For Example: Some Christian translations of the Old Testament in Exodus 7:1 where God calls Moses a god (Elohim), add the word "like" or "as" a god to pharaoh . The words "like" or "as" are not in the Hebrew text. Do you see how the 'translators' remove divinity here and add it there as though the word of God All Mighty can be changed, that is the current Bible.
It is nice to see that our questioner admits that the Bible is "the word of God All Mighty." He is right that the Hebrew text does not contain the word "as" or "like." The Authorized Version of Exodus 7:1 reads as follows:


"And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

Obviously this classical Christian translation was not affected by Mohamed's allegation. The context makes it perfectly clear that the LORD was not attributing deity to Moses here. The text says "I have made thee a god to Pharaoh." It does not say "I have made thee God." Being made a god to Pharaoh is not the same as being made God. Translators who have added the word "as" have done so to make that particular point more clear.


Do you see the Major difference between calling Moses "like a god" and "Moses the god"

The difference is not between "like a god" and "Moses the god." The difference is between "like a god to Pharaoh" and "a god to Pharaoh." There is no essential difference in the given context. Let the Muslim not twist and change the text so as to make a great difference where none exists. The Hebrew text does not have the definite article that he added. Does it not bother him to add his own word to the text? A word that does change the essential meaning!

What support would Christians have in trying to claim divinity for Jesus, if Moses, a clear Prophet is called god, "None".

None, if that is all that is involved in the doctrine of the deity of Christ. The doctrine is supported by much greater evidence than this.

There is another aspect of this. In the Bible God has quite some humor, and we can find a lot of sarcasm in particular when confronting the false gods of this world. The event of the Exodus in particular was to do just that. this is clear from the following reference in Exodus 12:12 that the LORD intended to "embarrass" the Egyptian gods:

For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
In fact, not only the last, but all the plagues reported were striking against one or more of the Egyptian gods and showing their helplessness.

When reading "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: ..." God in effect states that he will make it so that Pharaoh has to bow his will before Moses as much as he might think at this time that he is God, i.e. the absolute ruler whom everyone has to obey.

In the book The Culture of Ancient Egypt, by John A. Wilson (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1951) Chapter 4 is entitled "The King and God." Page 85 has the quote:

In one respect death made no change in the existence of the king: he was a god on earth in this life, and he would join the circle of the gods in the next life; he ruled in this would and he would be ruler in the next
.
This Pharaonic pride of being god is addressed with this statement and and this pride will be broken by the only one and true God through the agency of Moses, to whose message Pharaoh will have to bow, acknowledging him as superior.
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby 1stjohn0666 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:40 pm

@B.W.: wonderful answer!!
@Paul would you say Jewish scholars discard the Masoretic text?
Which does say exactly what I posted.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby B. W. » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:49 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:@B.W.: wonderful answer!!
@Paul would you say Jewish scholars discard the Masoretic text?
Which does say exactly what I posted.


There is a difference between calling one a god and being God and the difference is in worship. You do not worship any one called ‘a god.’

Exodus 20:3-5, "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me…" NKJV

Jesus is worshiped in Heaven as Rev 4:7, 8, 9, 10, 11 states. If Jesus being merely just a mortal placed into godhood by God to be worshiped then you have actually made God out a lair and fallible. How? – easy - your point of view, Mr 666 cause God to contradicted himself.here:

Isaiah 43:10-12, "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. 11 "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me. 12 It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God." NASB

Isa 44:6, "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. 7 Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place." NASB

Isa 41:4, "Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.'" NASB

Rev 1:17-18 , When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. NASB

Rev 22:13, 16 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." 16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."


In light of these verses, who does Jesus himself say he is?

For some who is supposed to be studying languages of theses ancient writings, you sure exhibit a complete lack of knowledge regarding how words were used in their ancient social and cultural order. Being like a god in someone’s eyes does not make them God.

Next Regarding: Exodus 18

Moses was facing what we call burn out and it was pointed out by the context of Exodus 18:14-27 that certain leaders who Feared God, would act in the role of issuing judgment in civil matters, in religious matters, in disputes, carrying out and instructing the law. This by no means makes those judges an Elohim class as you suggest.

These judges feared God meaning they knew Exodus 20:3-5 better than you do because they feared God and you demonstrate that you do not.

Now the questions you have been asking and the very forms appear to becoming from someone well versed in the Islamic objections to Christian Doctrine regarding the Christian Orthodox doctrine of the divine Trinity. These question, points, comments are almost text book. Also, understanding that it is acceptable according to Islam to lie, I think you just might be fitting that stripe here.

So before we go any further 1stJohnny666, re-read the above verses I cited and try to explain those away.

Several people participating here are seeing you as quite disingenuous and intellectually deficient in the realm of logic and reason, as are most Islamist and Cultist are. Suggest you review everything on this thread and every thread of this Forum you participated on regarding the Trinity and actually read what everyone has actually written to you.

If not, due to the Islamic nature to use lies to achieve the objective of Jihad… that Islam stresses the point that deception is good if it's done to promote Islam in some form or another. Your sincerity is seriously in question here as is your true intent.

answering-islam wrote:...When someone first becomes curious and wishes to begin learning about Islam, it is imperative that they first understand the degree to which lying is not only permitted, but actually fostered and even, at times, commanded in Islam. When a Christian wishes to teach others about Christianity, it is simply understood that honesty will be an essential aspect of that sharing. In Islam however, most westerners have a hard time relating to the fact that purposeful exaggerations, covering of the truth and occasionally – outright-deliberate lying is a core part of the religion of Islam. There are actually specific doctrines and traditions that foster a culture of dishonesty within Islam.

...While most people will agree that religion and deception are not intermixable, it is clear that in Islam, deception and religion mutually support one another. Likewise we can be sure that in the last-days, deception and religion will be so intertwined that it will be difficult even for “the elect” to discern just what is the truth. As such, once again, Islam finds itself fulfilling yet another of the primary descriptions of the last-days system of the Antichrist...

http://answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/F ... onesty.htm


Islam and jihad: The principle of al-Taqiyya

"Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible...and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory."

-- Abu Hammid Ghazali
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby 1stjohn0666 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:35 am

First of all I am only stating that the term "Elohim" is an elastic term. Elohim not only is used for the one true God, but of men, angels, false gods, and yes our Messiah "the man" Christ Jesus. Elohim would work like how we say "God" in our language. I did not say or ever will that Moses is the one true God!! But with the language, he was certainly called "Elohim"
I will address your texts you have!!

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby 1stjohn0666 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:48 am

B. W. wrote:Exodus 20:3-5

I agree
Jesus is worshiped in Heaven as Rev 4:7, 8, 9, 10, 11 states. If Jesus being merely just a mortal placed into godhood by God to be worshiped then you have actually made God out a lair and fallible. How? – easy - your point of view, Mr 666 cause God to contradicted himself.here:

There really is no need of addressing me other than my screen name, unless your going over to the "dark side" (Star Wars Parody) LOL
The Father commands worship to his son!!
Isaiah 43:10-12, "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. 11 "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me. 12 It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God." NASB

I agree YHWH is the only true God, the servant is not YHWH.
Isa 44:6, "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. 7 Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place." NASB

This is a plain passage of YHWH, he is king of Israel and also their redeemer.
Isa 41:4, "Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.'" NASB

YHWH
Rev 1:17-18 , When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. NASB

I think on this one you are implying like titles "first and last" we could play that game ... Jesus is called "king of kings" but wait their is another in scripture who carries the same title... Artexerxes is also "king of kings" Ezra 7:12 Are they the same person by title, identity, ontological...or just plain mystery?
Rev 22:13, 16 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." 16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

Is God truly a descendant of his own creation....NO
In light of these verses, who does Jesus himself say he is?

Jesus said he was the son of God, many others within scripture confirm this... even the Father!!
Being like a god in someone’s eyes does not make them God.

Again I agree, or in part "does not make them the one true God" is better stated.
Next Regarding: Exodus 18
Moses was facing what we call burn out and it was pointed out by the context of Exodus 18:14-27 that certain leaders who Feared God, would act in the role of issuing judgment in civil matters, in religious matters, in disputes, carrying out and instructing the law. This by no means makes those judges an Elohim class as you suggest.
These judges feared God meaning they knew Exodus 20:3-5 better than you do because they feared God and you demonstrate that you do not.
Now the questions you have been asking and the very forms appear to becoming from someone well versed in the Islamic objections to Christian Doctrine regarding the Christian Orthodox doctrine of the divine Trinity. These question, points, comments are almost text book. Also, understanding that it is acceptable according to Islam to lie, I think you just might be fitting that stripe here.

Gen 23:6 Abraham is called an elohim
Exo 4:16 YHWH tells Moses that he will function as elohim to Aaron
Exo 7:1 YHWH tells Moses that he is elohim to Pharaoh
Exo 21:6 Judge called elohim
Exo 22:8,9 Judge called elohim, not once or twice but three timess!!
I Sam 2:25 Judge called elohim
Psalms 82:1,6 Wicked rulers called elohim by YHWH
These are abstract but use "Elohim"............................................
Gen 30:8 "with elohim wrestlings I have wrestled with my sister"
Exo 9:28 "Entreat YHWH that there be no more elohim thunderings"
I Sam 14:15 "the earth quaked so that it became an elohim trembling"
Jonah 3:3 Nineveh was an "elohim great city, a three days walk"
I could go on with the Greek THEOS in the same sense as Elohim
So before we go any further 1stJohnny666, re-read the above verses I cited and try to explain those away.

I did
Several people participating here are seeing you as quite disingenuous and intellectually deficient in the realm of logic and reason, as are most Islamist and Cultist are. Suggest you review everything on this thread and every thread of this Forum you participated on regarding the Trinity and actually read what everyone has actually written to you.

For the trinity concept to make any sense IMHO one must break the rules of grammar or go insane LOL
I had to delete the last of your opinion as we are having a "biblical" discussion.
Many beliefs differ within the same faith, but sometimes agreeing to disagree is a positive way to be Christian!!
Not all Christians are Pentecostal, Baptists, or you name it. I am not alone in my beliefs which have been around prior to the Creeds which give us the doctrine of the trinity.
Many Trinitarian scholars boldly admit that this doctrine is NEVER found in scripture!! Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Millard J. Erickson, Graham Greene... etc.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby B. W. » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:54 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:For the trinity concept to make any sense IMHO one must break the rules of grammar or go insane LOL
I had to delete the last of your opinion as we are having a "biblical" discussion.
Many beliefs differ within the same faith, but sometimes agreeing to disagree is a positive way to be Christian!!
Not all Christians are Pentecostal, Baptists, or you name it. I am not alone in my beliefs which have been around prior to the Creeds which give us the doctrine of the trinity.
Many Trinitarian scholars boldly admit that this doctrine is NEVER found in scripture!! Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Millard J. Erickson, Graham Greene... etc.


It is you who do break the rules of grammar, syntax, context, continuity, cultural and social climate of the day.

You have been abundantly answered by many folks here and are settled in your beliefs. The testimony of scripture presented here proves you are in error. To falsely accuse Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Millard Erickson of agreeing with you is shameful...and repugnant.

This thread is hereby Locked...
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby B. W. » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:48 am

This thread is hereby reopened for those who desire to continue this dialog and for future posters.

Jehovah Witnesses is a cultic system. This thread was :shijacked: and we graciously took the time to permit this letting the consequences belong to God. Now is the time to let this thread line get back on track.

If anyone had more to add to this thread, please feel free to do so.

Former member began to use a Strawman Argument.

While it is true all honest biblical scholars in some form or another will admit that the word "Trinity" itself is not found in the bible, this does not mean that the concept of the Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is not. Such statements made to imply that all scholars therefore disprove the Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity because the word is not mentioned in the bible is a Strawman.

As many person's on this board have shown the Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is certainly in the bible and Jesus himself reveals the concept as true

The Pre - incarnate Christ speaks in these verses:

Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. 7 Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place." NASB

Isaiah 41:4, "Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.'" NASB

Then Jesus says this in Revelation:

Rev 1:17-18 , When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. NASB

Rev 22:13, 16 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." 16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

To change what the book of Revelation is stating in its plain meaning is a very dangers endeavor to undertake and some folks simply attempt to do just that to his or her own peril...
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:49 am

Actually BW, this is a perfect case for the JW thread.
They do this SO much and by this I mean:
Take orthodox doctrine, re-interpret it incorrectly and then point out how it ( their interpretation) is wrong.
They also do what 1JOhn did, take isolated opinions of scholars out of context and try to pass it off as justifying their view that the doctrine ( as they wrongly interpret it) is flawed or incorrect.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Sam1995 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:33 am

He and him aren't verbs, John.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby B. W. » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:04 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Actually BW, this is a perfect case for the JW thread.
They do this SO much and by this I mean:
Take orthodox doctrine, re-interpret it incorrectly and then point out how it ( their interpretation) is wrong.
They also do what 1JOhn did, take isolated opinions of scholars out of context and try to pass it off as justifying their view that the doctrine ( as they wrongly interpret it) is flawed or incorrect.


Yes all manner of Oneness peoples and Cults like the JW's cannot get past the difference between the self existing Nature of God and God Himself being one being. The Nature of being (the essence) is what throws them every time.

To put it simple as I can, the three distinct aspects of God's Nature (Essence) are self existing because God is a self existing Being - therefore - the way God reveals his oneness is thru each of his distinct self existing entities in order for us to understand him and know him.

It is interesting that this tri-natureness is evident in the world around us and in us as well. The difference is that only one aspect of our nature becomes self existing at birth the other two aspects simply house that nature. Think of it this way, we have a physical body (Bone, tissue, internal organs, nervous system), we do have a fluid component (Blood, internal fluids), and something so noted as bio-electrical component i.e. spirit. All three make us one being. Each however is totally distinct from each other. Only one aspect becomes self existing at birth and the other two help house who we really are.

God is not man. God is absolute. His nature of being is all self existing in order to be absolutely truly self existing. God is Spirit and his spiritual nature is made up of three distinct co-eternal, co-equal, living aspects that make God’s nature one which God reveals as Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit to humanity.

There is none like him. For us, we have a reflection of that nature but only one of our distinct features is capable self existence at birth and in the afterlife to come. Later, this component will be rejoined with a new body for the new heavens and earth to come, fulfilling certain aspects of God’s word spoken in Genesis 1:26-30…

Oneness folks and cultist view life only from the human perspective and make God’s oneness like our own and with or without knowing it – violate Exodus 20:1-3. God’s oneness of being is unlike our own human life form. God’s nature is an echaud – unity of being and there is none like him. For us, we are an Echid – single entity lower than God made with three distinct modes – two of which houses the real person. For God, this is not so. Cannot measure God’s oneness based upon our own.
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Domenic » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:28 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:The 144K are ONLY the annointed, those that have the seal of the HS.
According to the JW's there are/will be only 144K "saints", annointed ones ( the annointed class) and only they will be with God in Heaven, the rest of the "great crowd" (only JW's of course) will live on Earth.
The governing body releases the number of the annointed every year since only they can partake of the Lord's Supper BUT they also make it clear that not ALL of those that partake ARE annointed and that some may just THINK they are ( and might even have mental problems) and as such, no one ever knows how many TRUE annointed there are or have been.
When the full number of 144K is reached then the end MUST come.


I was a JW for 28 years. This 144,000 has been a thorn in their side for many years. Before 1930 they said all JW's were of the 144,000...then the number grew. Then they said, only those who were before 1930 were of the 144,000....The number just keeps growing, and growing...what was the reply? Some who were must have fallen away.
I left the JW's 18 years ago. They are good people, and yes they do love father, and our lord Jesus. Are they a cult...I believe so.
It is very hard for people to leave their religion...do you think you could leave yours? If I proved your religion was false, would you leave it, or fight against the proof I showed you?
How can you test your own religion? Simple. Make a list of false major doctrines. If your religion has one or more of these...it is a false religion.

How can you know if a doctrine is false? Test them against the bible. Here is an example of just one;

"People who are bad will go to a hell of fire, and burn for ever." What does the bible say of the condition of the dead?
Read Ec 9:5...and that is only one of many scriptures on that subject.
The next time you meet a JW, treat them as Christians...because like you, they are...they just don't think you are.

Domenic
Established Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:32 am
Christian: Yes

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Domenic » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:14 pm

I have been reading the post on this thread. I see most members believe Jesus is God, and God is Jesus.
I'm a very simple person. I test things in the Bible, which i believe is the word of GodIt has to make simple sense. 1+ 1must
equal. 2.
Walk through how my mind works...just remember, I'm not as smart as most of you.

Jesus, the one you call God, I agree Jesus is a God. Do I believe Jesus has an identity problem? No I do not, nor do i believe he makes things up. Let me take you for a little walk;
You, and me are followers of Jesus. We are two the the twelve who followed him two thousand ears ago. ready? I'll call you Bill, and you call me Tom. Lets assume Jesus, is God, and God is Jesus.

"Hay Bill, were did the master go?"
'He's over there by that big rock Tom."
"What is he doing?"
"He's praying to himself."
The following day were all walking, and talking. Jesus says," Don't pray to me, but pray to me through me."
"Bill, what the heck does he mean by that?"
Darn if I know?"
We stop for a short lunch of fish, and bread.
Jesus says, "I am greater than me."
"Bill, how can he be greater than what he is?"
"I don't know Tom...but if he keeps talking this way, I'm going to catch the next camel home."

Jesus is on the cross. He says, "Me, why have you forsaken me?"

"You ready to go back to fishing Tom?"
"yes i am."


As my simple mind goes...if Jesus is God, and God is Jesus, why did he; pray to the father?
Why did he say..."Do not pray to me, but to the father through me."
Why did he say..."The Father is greater than I."
Why did he say..."father, why have you forsaken me?"
And may other things about the father. I know I'm not smart...but I also know I'm not stupid. So help me out here. prove to me Jesus is god, and God is Jesus.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 7933
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:44 am

Domenic wrote:I have been reading the post on this thread. I see most members believe Jesus is God, and God is Jesus.
I'm a very simple person. I test things in the Bible, which i believe is the word of GodIt has to make simple sense. 1+ 1must
equal. 2.
Walk through how my mind works...just remember, I'm not as smart as most of you.

Jesus, the one you call God, I agree Jesus is a God. Do I believe Jesus has an identity problem? No I do not, nor do i believe he makes things up. Let me take you for a little walk;
You, and me are followers of Jesus. We are two the the twelve who followed him two thousand ears ago. ready? I'll call you Bill, and you call me Tom. Lets assume Jesus, is God, and God is Jesus.

"Hay Bill, were did the master go?"
'He's over there by that big rock Tom."
"What is he doing?"
"He's praying to himself."
The following day were all walking, and talking. Jesus says," Don't pray to me, but pray to me through me."
"Bill, what the heck does he mean by that?"
Darn if I know?"
We stop for a short lunch of fish, and bread.
Jesus says, "I am greater than me."
"Bill, how can he be greater than what he is?"
"I don't know Tom...but if he keeps talking this way, I'm going to catch the next camel home."

Jesus is on the cross. He says, "Me, why have you forsaken me?"

"You ready to go back to fishing Tom?"
"yes i am."


As my simple mind goes...if Jesus is God, and God is Jesus, why did he; pray to the father?
Why did he say..."Do not pray to me, but to the father through me."
Why did he say..."The Father is greater than I."
Why did he say..."father, why have you forsaken me?"
And may other things about the father. I know I'm not smart...but I also know I'm not stupid. So help me out here. prove to me Jesus is god, and God is Jesus.


Jesus being God is a doctrine of NATURE. Jesus and His Father have the same nature and if His Father is God, what does that make Jesus? God as well.
So that brings us to God or "a" god, right?
Well, the bible certainly speaks of other Gods and of beings (angels) called sons of God that are viewed/were viewed as gods by some ( even called , in the case of Satan, the god of this world at the time of Jesus and His apostles).
So could Jesus simply be "a god" ?
No, why? because for one thing He is, as John states, WITH GOD and IS GOD. Never is Jesus spoken of as being "a god".
That Jesus calls His Father "His God" is simply a statement of superiour authority and respect that Jesus had for His Father, it is not a denial of them having the same nature.
I suggest you read Paul's writing to Colossians, Philipians and Hebrews, you don't get much clear than these parts (and the GOJ of course):

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Colossians 1:15-16 New English Translation (NET Bible)
The Supremacy of Christ
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,
16 for all things in heaven and on earth were created in him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him.

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.


Hebrews 1 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

God’s Final Word in His Son
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again,

“I will be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me”?
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,

“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says,

“Who makes His angels winds,
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But of the Son He says,

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”
10 And,

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
12 And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said,

“Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Your enemies
A footstool for Your feet”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

And so forth...


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