Jehovah witnesses

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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RickD
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby RickD » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:22 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:
RickD wrote:The Christian faith did not originate with the Jews.

Would you then say Jesus was not a Jew. The entire Bible is of Jewish origin. Jesus cannot quote Jewish scriptures if it was entirely something else.

John, I can see why you would think that the Christian faith originated with the Jews, because you deny the deity of Jesus Christ. The Jews are part of God's plan for salvation, but the Jews aren't the origin of the plan. You think Christ was only a Jewish man, and not God Himself in the flesh. The Christian faith is faith in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is fully man, and fully God. The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ was God's plan from before the foundation of the world.

God's plan=originated with God
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby 1stjohn0666 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:43 pm

When the word Elohim is used in the scriptures, it is used of the one true God and of false gods. There is no differentiation of the term unless verbs are supplied (which they are) I, He, Him...etc meaning that "the plural" Elohim is being used in a singular sense. Also in Psalm 82:6 we find Elohim being used of people "who are NOT God!!
Elohim is an elastic term with a certain ambiguity that can mean "the ONE TRUE GOD" and others "who are NOT GOD"
YHWH never has any ambiguity because YHWH is the proper name of the one true God!!

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby 1stjohn0666 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:58 pm

RickD wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:
RickD wrote:The Christian faith did not originate with the Jews.

Would you then say Jesus was not a Jew. The entire Bible is of Jewish origin. Jesus cannot quote Jewish scriptures if it was entirely something else.

John, I can see why you would think that the Christian faith originated with the Jews, because you deny the deity of Jesus Christ. The Jews are part of God's plan for salvation, but the Jews aren't the origin of the plan. You think Christ was only a Jewish man, and not God Himself in the flesh. The Christian faith is faith in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is fully man, and fully God. The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ was God's plan from before the foundation of the world.

God's plan=originated with God

Please answer the question, if Jesus was God "and scripture cannot be broken" how does a God who cannot die.... die?
I see your point with the Jews being a part of God's plan for salvation, but we are not saved by the Jews.
Scripture states that Jesus was a man, never in all of scripture does it say fully man and fully God. This would in fact mean to me, the belief in 2 who are truly God.
Jesus himself refutes this by excluding himself of Godship John 17:3
I will say Jesus is what the "word" became.... Deut 18:15,18; Isa 51:16 confirm this.
If scripture ever presented to me that Jesus was "very God of very God" according to the "post-biblical" Creeds.... I would lean more into the trinitarian format.
However my wife is my support in many areas of the trinitarian format, she does make a whole lot of sense, then I do as the Bereans did... search the scriptures and find if what was said, taught, or preached against the scriptures.

I still NEED hard cold evidence if Jesus is truly God, to be able to find it within the scriptures. So Jesus for now will remain as Jesus, Paul, YHWH, Peter, and others that Jesus is the "son of God" rather than "God the son"

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby RickD » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:08 pm

John, I see you edited your post. You got God the son, and son of God mixed up. I think you should put it back as you had it first. 8)
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:26 pm

I am not sure how much more explicit the NT writers can get about Jesus divine nature.
John says He is God.
Paul says he is the exact form of God and in Jesus the fullness of God dwells.
The writer of Hebrews says Jesus is the exact representation of his nature.

None say that Jesus is The Father of course BUT all agree that He shares the same nature as The Father, which would make him God.
Honestly, you can get more explicit about Jesus nature than that.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:35 pm

Jesus himself refutes this by excluding himself of Godship John 17:3

And what else does it say?

17 Jesus spoke these things; and (A)lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; (B)glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as (C)You gave Him authority over all flesh, that (D)to all whom You have given Him, (E)He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, (F)the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom (G)You have sent. 4 (H)I glorified You on the earth, (I)having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, (J)glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had (K)with You before the world was.

Note the He ( Jesus) had glory together with that Father BEFORE the world was, an equal glory as they are BOTH glorified together:
5 Now, Father, (J)glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had (K)with You before the world was.


Code: Select all

I will say Jesus is what the "word" became.... Deut 18:15,18; Isa 51:16 confirm this.


You got that backwards, The Word became flesh in Jesus, Jesus did NOT become the word.
John 1 makes it clear that before the human we call Jesus was born of Mary, the divine word of God existed and it was through the Word that creation came to be.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby B. W. » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:44 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:Please answer the question, if Jesus was God "and scripture cannot be broken" how does a God who cannot die.... die?


Try this Link for starters...

http://carm.org/jesus-two-natures

Then read this Link next as it answer you...

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_god_dying.htm

http://carm.org/how-jesus-god-die

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev 1:17, 18 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this...
NASB
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby 1stjohn0666 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:34 pm

RickD wrote:John, I see you edited your post. You got God the son, and son of God mixed up. I think you should put it back as you had it first. 8)

LOL

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby 1stjohn0666 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:38 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:I am not sure how much more explicit the NT writers can get about Jesus divine nature.
John says He is God.
Paul says he is the exact form of God and in Jesus the fullness of God dwells.
The writer of Hebrews says Jesus is the exact representation of his nature.

None say that Jesus is The Father of course BUT all agree that He shares the same nature as The Father, which would make him God.
Honestly, you can get more explicit about Jesus nature than that.

Where does John plainly, without some divine code, come right out and say Jesus is God.
Is an image of a thing really the thing itself?
The writer of Hebrews also states that Jesus has a God.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:58 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:I am not sure how much more explicit the NT writers can get about Jesus divine nature.
John says He is God.
Paul says he is the exact form of God and in Jesus the fullness of God dwells.
The writer of Hebrews says Jesus is the exact representation of his nature.

None say that Jesus is The Father of course BUT all agree that He shares the same nature as The Father, which would make him God.
Honestly, you can get more explicit about Jesus nature than that.

Where does John plainly, without some divine code, come right out and say Jesus is God.
Is an image of a thing really the thing itself?
The writer of Hebrews also states that Jesus has a God.


All those passages ( I mentioned)are comments on Jesus divine NATURE and NOT on his identity, you really need to grasp the difference.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby 1stjohn0666 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:08 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:I am not sure how much more explicit the NT writers can get about Jesus divine nature.
John says He is God.
Paul says he is the exact form of God and in Jesus the fullness of God dwells.
The writer of Hebrews says Jesus is the exact representation of his nature.


Where does John say "Jesus is God"?
Paul and the writer of Hebrews.... The image of a thing is not the thing itself.


@Rick I almost "fell into the trap" at my own cost LOL "God the son"

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby B. W. » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:20 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:I am not sure how much more explicit the NT writers can get about Jesus divine nature.
John says He is God.
Paul says he is the exact form of God and in Jesus the fullness of God dwells.
The writer of Hebrews says Jesus is the exact representation of his nature.


Where does John say "Jesus is God"?
Paul and the writer of Hebrews.... The image of a thing is not the thing itself.


Did you not read PaulSacramento's answer to you????

PaulSacramento wrote:All those passages ( I mentioned) are comments on Jesus divine NATURE and NOT on his identity, you really need to grasp the difference.


Try this from CARM...

CARM wrote:]Did Jesus ever say the exact words "I am God?"

http://carm.org/religious-movements/isl ... s-i-am-god

No, Jesus never said the exact three words, "I am God". But Jesus also never said the exact four words, "I am a prophet" or the exact four words "I am a man," but we know he was both a prophet and a man. It is not necessary for Jesus to say the exact phrase "I am a man" for us to know that he was a man. Likewise, it is not necessary for Jesus to utter the exact three words "I am God" in order for us to determine whether or not he is divine. Jesus may not have said the exact sentence "I am God" but he did claim the divine name for himself (Exo. 3:14 with John 8:58) and he also received worship (Matt. 2:2; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38).

When Moses was up at the Mount speaking to God, Moses asked God what his name was. God said, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, 'Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel,' 'I AM has sent me to you,' (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:58 Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Right after this the Jews picked up stones to throw at him. Later, in John 10:30-33 Jesus claimed to be one with the Father and the Jews wanted to stone him again because they said to Jesus, "You, being a man, make yourself out to be God." Jesus had claimed the divine name for his own and the Jews wanted to kill him for it. Therefore, from Jesus' own mouth we see that he was claiming to be God.

The words "I am"

Now please understand that anyone can say the words "I am" and it does not mean that he is claiming to be God. Someone could say, "I am over here." That is not claiming the divine name. Likewise, someone could say, "I am hungry," or "I am sick." Neither example is claiming divinity, because the use of the term "I am" in context clearly shows us that is not what is occurring. But, in John 8:58 when Jesus said "before Abraham was born, I am," the Jews knew exactly what he was saying. Notice that he says before Abraham was born (using the past tense) and then he switches to the present tense when he says "I am." Jesus switches tenses of the verbs on purpose so that when he does so in the context of referencing Abraham, Jesus is clearly drawing the Jews' attention to the Old Testament Scriptures and then using a present tense form of the verb "to be" by saying "I AM". Someone who says "I am hungry" is not drawing attention to the Old Testament Scriptures for context.

Jesus was clearly causing the Jews to reflect upon the divine name "I am" that Jesus used for himself. We know that they understood this because as is said above, they said, "You, being a man, make yourself out to be God," (John 10:33).

The Muslims agree with the Jews

But what is noteworthy is that the Jews, like the Muslims, deny that Jesus is God in flesh. Therefore, the Muslims are united with the Jewish people in denying who Jesus claimed to be, the "I am."

Conclusion

It is not necessary that Jesus say a certain phrase in order for the truth of who he is to be made clear. The issue is not if he speaks a certain sentence that we construct in present terms in order to satisfy our theological demands. The issue is what did Jesus say in the context and culture of the time in which he spoke.

Finally, we know that Jesus is God in flesh because the Bible tells us so.

•John 1:1, 14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
•John 20:28-29, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
•Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.'"


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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby B. W. » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:28 pm

Here is what Rich Deem of this very site says about this...

http://www.godandscience.org/cults/jesus.html

Jesus Christ Never Said He Was God?
by Rich Deem

Introduction

What did Jesus say?

For "not having ever claimed to be God," Jesus made some pretty arrogant statements. For example, in response to Thomas, Jesus said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6) From this statement alone, one would have to wonder why nobody could come to God directly. Maybe Jesus was really saying that He was God?

Rich Deem


Many members of Christian cults claim that Jesus never said He was God. However, the biblical evidence shows that this concept is false. This page examines the claims of divinity that Jesus made about Himself. For other biblical passages that claim that Jesus is God, see Jesus Christ is God (YHVH).

It is true that Jesus never said, "I am God" directly. However, most of His teachings were done through parables, and not by direct statements. His disciples asked Him why He taught this way. His answer was:

And He answered and said to them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matthew 13:11-13)

Those who make the claim that Jesus never claimed to be God are blind and deaf to God's word, by their own choices.

Jesus claims to be the Son of Man

Although the title "Son of Man" may seem fairly innocuous, it is, in fact, a title of the Messiah, of whom the book of Daniel claims that all people will serve and that His kingdom would never end:


"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)

Obviously, if the Son of Man were only human, He would not be able to establish an eternal kingdom. Likewise, He would not be able to convince all peoples to serve Him. Such abilities and honors are reserved for God alone.

Jesus claims to be the Son of God

The Bible makes the direct claim that Jesus is the Son of God.1 Many others, including the disciples,2 a Roman Centurion,3 angels,4 demons5, John the Baptist,6 Martha,7 Saul (Paul),8 and the Ethiopian Eunich 9 make the same claim. Others said that Jesus Himself made the claim to be the Son of God.10 The gospels also indicate that Jesus Himself made the statement or acknowledged that He was the Son of God many times.11

Virtually all cults will acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, as if the title confers no special meaning or only second class status. This assumption is unrealistic, since no other prophet ever called himself the Son of God. The Jewish leaders of the time knew exactly what this title implied - that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself:

For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. (John 5:18)

Claiming to be the Son of God also conferred the title of Messiah or the anointed One. Psalm 2 talks about the Messiah (mashiach), whom it says is God's Son.12 This great messianic Psalm warns the reader to do homage to the Son and take refuge in Him,13 since He will rule the nations and judge the earth.14

Jesus claims to be the Messiah (the Christ)

The Bible says that Jesus is the Christ, or Messiah - the anointed One of God. Jesus Himself made the claim or acknowledged that He was the Messiah.15 The title is especially significant with regard to the question at hand - is Jesus God? The Old Testament tells us that the Messiah is God and the eternal Father:


For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

Other prophecies of the Old Testament tell us that the Messiah would be God:

"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness. (Jeremiah 23:5-6)

The title, "The LORD Our Righteousness" indicates that the Messiah is God. The Hebrew word translated "LORD" is yhvh (Yahweh), which is the personal name of God.

Jesus claims to have the attributes of God

Jesus claimed to have many of the attributes that God alone possess. Jesus claimed to have sent the prophets:


"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, (Matthew 23:34)

However, the Old Testament indicates that God sent the prophets.16 Therefore, Jesus was claiming the authority that was previously reserved only for God.

Jesus claimed that His origins are from heaven, whereas men are from the world:
•"And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man. (John 3:13)
• And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. (John 8:23)

Not only did Jesus claim to come from heaven, but He said that it was "my kingdom" Isn't heaven God's kingdom?
•that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:30)
•Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." (John 18:36)

Jesus claimed to have existed before He was born in Bethlehem:


"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. (John 8:58-59)

The claim included the term "I am" - a reference God made of Himself when talking to Moses.17 The Jews immediately recognized that Jesus was claiming to be God and attempted to stone Him.

Jesus also claimed to have existed "before the world began":


"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5)

This statement is an obvious claim to deity. Not only did Jesus claim to exist before the creation of the universe, but He claimed to share the glory of God! Jesus also claimed that He had "all authority... in heaven and on earth" and that everything of God was His.18


And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18)

Jesus claimed to be the supreme judge who will exercise all judgment.19 However, there are at least 50 verses in the Bible that claim that Jehovah God will judge the earth (see Who Will Judge Mankind?). Jesus claimed to be the one to separate the "sheep from the goats".20 However, the book of Ezekiel says that Jehovah God will do this.21 Jesus claimed to be the resurrection and the life.22 He said that He would personally raise everyone from the dead.23 These are all attributes of God.

Jesus claimed to be Lord of the Sabbath,24 although the Bible indicates that God held such title.25

Jesus claimed the ability to forgive sins.26 Even the Jews recognized that this was a function of God alone.27

Jesus claimed that He would return in the clouds in glory.28 Isaiah makes the same claim for Jehovah God.29 Obviously, Jesus was making a claim to deity.

Jesus claimed to be the light of the world who provides salvation.30 In the Psalms, David tells us that Jehovah God is our light and salvation.31 Jesus also claimed to be the way to life32 - an assertion that is made for God.33 Jesus said that He was the one who searched the hearts and minds,34 gives eternal life,35 and rewards those who follow Him.36 All of these characteristics are found only in God.37, 38, 39

Jesus said He was the good shepherd,40 who searches for His sheep.41 These are claims made of God in the Old Testament.42, 43 Jesus claimed to be the fountain of living water.44 This is a clear reference to what God said of Himself as recorded by the prophet Jeremiah.45 Jesus said He would give rest to those who found Him.46 The same claim is made of God in the book of Exodus.47

Jesus claimed to send the Holy Spirit (Helper).48 The same claim is made for God.49 Jesus said that He raised Himself from the dead,50 even though the Bible says that God did it.51 Among Jesus' parting words, He told His disciples to baptize new followers in "the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."


"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)

It should be noted that the other two names (Father and Holy Spirit) are names for God. In fact, the text says specifically that they should be baptized in the name (singular), not names, of the three persons mentioned. In order to be one name, they must all represent God. Jesus claimed that His disciples would be unable to do anything of significance without His power. Such a statement is a clear claim of divine power.


"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. (John 15:5)

Jesus accepts the title of God

One of the least favorite exchanges in the Bible from the cults perspective is the one that occurred between Jesus and Thomas after Jesus rose from the dead. Thomas, the ever-skeptical disciple, was unconvinced that Jesus had risen from the dead and wanted to see direct proof. However, when the Lord Jesus appeared to him, his only reaction was "My Lord and my God!"


Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." (John 20:28-29)

What was Jesus' reaction to the title of God? Did Jesus rebuke him for calling Him "God"? No! In fact, Jesus praised Thomas for his belief. And the belief that Thomas exhibited was that Jesus was Lord and God. If Jesus were not God, accepting such a statement for truth would be a grievous sin. Either Jesus is God or He would have to be a sinner!

Jesus claims to be God

The cults tend to acknowledge that Jesus and God were "one in purpose." However, this is a rather weak claim. Every disciple of Jesus Christ has the goal of being "one in purpose" with God the Father. Even so, Jesus never used the word "purpose" in His claims of oneness with God.


"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)

Obviously, the Jews did not think that this claim of being one with the Father referred to purpose. They knew that He was claiming equality with God, which is why they tried to stone Him. In addition, Jesus said outright that He was Lord52 and claimed to be the first and the last,53 an obvious trait reserved for God.54

Jesus accepts worship reserved for God alone

Some of the most significant statements Jesus made regarding His deity actually involve an argument from silence - what Jesus did not say. In no less than 12 instances, Jesus was worshipped by various people - the wise men,55 the disciples,56 a leper,57 a synagogue official,58 a woman of Canaan,59 Mother of Zebedee's children,60 a blind man,61 angels,62 and everybody in heaven.63 The Bible clearly indicates that God alone is to be worshipped.64 Even Jesus proclaimed this to Satan, when he tempted Him and demanded that He worship him.65 Some members of cults claim that the people who worshipped Jesus did so improperly. There are a number of examples where people attempted to worship the disciples66 or angels67 and were warned not to do so by the parties being worshipped. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Jesus is the archangel Michael. However, the Bible clearly indicates that angels are not to be worshipped.68 The problem arises that Jesus never told anyone to stop worshipping Him. If Jesus were not God, to say nothing in the face of worship would be a huge sin. So, if Jesus is not God, then He sinned in allowing others to worship Him. If He sinned, then Jesus could not even be the Savior, since the Savior must be without spot or blemish. By claiming that Jesus is not God, the cults turn Him into a liar and impostor.

Conclusion

Jesus never claimed to be God? It would seem from this large collection of sayings that Jesus made the claim to divinity constantly, in many different ways. Those who claim Jesus never said he was God are not reading his claims with the understanding of the true nature of God, as revealed in the Old and New Testaments. Jesus was constantly giving people advice. One of His favorite sayings is recorded below. It's good advice for those who really want to know Jesus.

"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."


Add to this the frame below....
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(by B. W. Melvin)

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby B. W. » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:37 pm

Also Mr Shamoun points out in articles as well these quotes from His Article on the subject and the Notes on it...
Answering Islam

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ ... _deity.htm

Point in Article

....After all, the NT shows that even before his death and resurrection Christ’s own enemies understood that he was making himself out to be God, despite also claiming to be someone other than the Father:

"And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, ‘My Father is working until now, and I am working.’ This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:16-18

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.’ The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?’ The Jews answered him, ‘It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.’" John 10:27-33

If even his enemies could see that Jesus was presenting himself as God are we to assume that his followers were unable to perceive that this was what he was claiming for himself? Wouldn’t these exchanges leave an indelible mark on the disciples’ understanding of the Person of Christ? Of course they would.

To ask it in a different way, aren’t we safe to assume that Jesus’ interaction with his opponents would have led his followers to conclude that Christ was claiming to be Deity even though he kept going out of his way to emphasize the point that he was personally distinct from the Father? Why, to even ask the question is to answer it. As Harris puts it:

"it is not the passage of time in itself but dramatic events that effect any deepening or broadening of human thought." (Harris, Jesus As God, p. 277)

One such dramatic occurrence would be the resurrection since it is this event that led to Thomas’ high Christological confession, one that he made when he encountered the Resurrected Lord a week after he had been raised from the dead:

"Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, ‘We have seen the Lord.’ But he said to them, ‘Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.’ Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you.’ Then he said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.’ Thomas answered and said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’" John 20:24-29

The foregoing substantiates the fact that the disciples must have understood from the statements made by their Lord and Master (cf. John 13:13-14) that, although personally distinct from the Father who sent him, he was still God nonetheless. It apparently took Jesus’ resurrection for them to be fully convinced of the truth of this claim....


Notes

Furthermore, Jesus in Revelation identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End:

"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I WAS DEAD, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.’" Revelation 1:17-18

"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again." Revelation 2:8

The First and the Last is just another way of saying that Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. Interestingly, both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Quran agree that the First and the Last is a title of God:

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.’" Isaiah 44:6

"Hearken to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am He, I am the first, and I am the last." Isaiah 48:12

He is the First and the Last, the Outward and the Inward; He has knowledge of everything. S. 57:3 Arberry

This in itself sufficiently proves that Jesus claimed to be God since only God can call himself by this title.

Moving on:

"And he said to me, ‘These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent HIS ANGEL to show his servants what must soon take place. And behold, I AM COMING SOON.’ Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book… Behold, I AM COMING SOON! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End… I, Jesus, have sent MY ANGEL to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star’… He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming soon.’ Amen. COME, LORD JESUS." Revelation 22:6-7, 12-13, 16, 20

It is Jesus who is the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets that sent his angel and is coming soon, who expressly identifies himself as the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End!

And here is the final line of evidence connecting Jesus with the Divine Speaker of Revelation 21:6-7:

"For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." Revelation 7:17

Jesus the Lamb does what God in 21:7 says he will do, give believers to drink from the spring of living water. This isn’t the only place where Jesus is said to do this:

"Jesus answered her, ‘If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living waters’ … Jesus answered, ‘Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.’" John 4:10, 13-14

"On the last day, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, ‘If anyone is thirsty, let him come to ME and drink. Whoever believes in ME, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.’" John 7:37-38

Thus, the foregoing presents a very strong case that Jesus is the One who identifies himself as the God of all believers in Revelation 21:6-7. At the very least, the above texts show that Jesus claims and ascribes to himself the very functions and titles of God Almighty.
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
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Sam1995
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Sam1995 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:42 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:When the word Elohim is used in the scriptures, it is used of the one true God and of false gods. There is no differentiation of the term unless verbs are supplied (which they are) I, He, Him...etc meaning that "the plural" Elohim is being used in a singular sense. Also in Psalm 82:6 we find Elohim being used of people "who are NOT God!!
Elohim is an elastic term with a certain ambiguity that can mean "the ONE TRUE GOD" and others "who are NOT GOD"
YHWH never has any ambiguity because YHWH is the proper name of the one true God!!


This doesn't work at all and if you can't see why John, then you need to go back to school and be taught english literature again! :lol:

SB
"There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind." - C.S Lewis


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