Jehovah witnesses

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Kurieuo
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Kurieuo » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:25 am

Mazzy wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
I haven't read all the posts yet, but the above wouldn't stump a JW. God created Jesus before the making of the world, so JW's have no problem saying Jesus was along side God in making the creation.

Of course, anyone can always just ignore what is plainly said and do this....

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I suppose posting comics says it all about someone's opinion. No doubt you have all the answers. Now you need to go tell God how it is :pound:
I love to hear Christians bagging out other Christians! It's so very Christian, don't you think?

1) What JWs believe isn't Christian.
2) They don't believe in the same Christ I do.
3) Your response was no response, but a mere burying your head in the sand as to what is said in John 1.


There is a plethora of scriptures I can quote that demonstrates Jesus is not God. You have one that is very likely translated incorrectly.
...
You have one scripture to present, that was written in Greek. Greek does not contain definite articles. IOW: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was A god. I have many scriptures to back up my view. You have to reason away these 14 scriptures to add credibility to one scripture.

Look up any translation, look up the original text. My step-by-step process holds. You've perhaps not read my argument really at all if you think it's about a translation issue over some "article".

You maintain that the answer would be no issue at all -- JWs would simply respond that Christ was the first created. Well, that doesn't resolve the problem or deal with the argument.

I encourage you re-read John 1:3 which says (use your own translation if you like): All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." (NWT) So then, did Jesus create Himself? You know, considering Scripture says not even one thing came into existence that has come into existence except via Jesus.

Either Jesus is created or uncreated. If Jesus created everything that came into existence (all of creation), and not one thing that came into being did so except through Christ, then there is a contradiction with the belief that Christ Himself at some point came into existence. For Christ can't be created, unless He created Himself which is logically absurd. So then, this leads one to believe Christ is uncreated and even eternally begotten of God.

And like the couple extra passages I previously posted, there are many passages in Scripture that support Christ's divinity, indeed which show Christ is even Jehovah.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:33 am

The main issue of Jesus' divinity, and why the Nicene Creed came to be, was that if Jesus is NOT God ( by nature) then:
The GOJ is wrong as John explicit states that Jesus is God.
We can NOT be saved by calling upon Jesus and as such Paul is wrong in Romans and Peter is wrong in Acts.
Either that or the NT contradicts the Old since in the OT that only God can save.

BTW, the Word can NOT be "A" god or else John was advocating Polytheism and add to that all the rest the John says about the Word and add to that how Paul states and equates all the God does ( including creation) to have been done By and Through and For Jesus.

Jesus not being God creates far more problems in scripture then Him being God.

As long as you realize that "God" is being used NOT as a "title" or a "Name" but the way we would say a person is human.
The term God is being used as a statement of nature not position or name.

Jesus being God is not Jesus being His Father.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby RickD » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:05 am

Mazzy,

The doctrine of the Trinity is man made. The doctrine represents the reality that God is A Trinity.

And Kurieuo is right. If you don't believe that Christ is God, you believe in a false Christ who cannot save.

You really need to think about this.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Mazzy » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:35 pm

RickD wrote:Mazzy,

The doctrine of the Trinity is man made. The doctrine represents the reality that God is A Trinity.

And Kurieuo is right. If you don't believe that Christ is God, you believe in a false Christ who cannot save.

You really need to think about this.


I believe Jesus is God's son who came to provide ransom for mankind. I think it doesn't matter if you believe in the Trinity or not. One's view on the Trinity is not what brings you salvation. I think sects, faiths, and individuals like to make their own doctrine and suggest they themselves are the way, the truth and the light.

The JWs say if you believe in the Trinity you are a pagan. You are opposed, suggesting if one doesn't accept the Trinity then one believes in a false Christ.
I think Jesus was clever with his words. Divisions will come to show the one approved by God. I think maybe you should really think about this.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Mazzy » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:11 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:The main issue of Jesus' divinity, and why the Nicene Creed came to be, was that if Jesus is NOT God ( by nature) then:
The GOJ is wrong as John explicit states that Jesus is God.
We can NOT be saved by calling upon Jesus and as such Paul is wrong in Romans and Peter is wrong in Acts.
Either that or the NT contradicts the Old since in the OT that only God can save.

BTW, the Word can NOT be "A" god or else John was advocating Polytheism and add to that all the rest the John says about the Word and add to that how Paul states and equates all the God does ( including creation) to have been done By and Through and For Jesus.

Jesus not being God creates far more problems in scripture then Him being God.

As long as you realize that "God" is being used NOT as a "title" or a "Name" but the way we would say a person is human.
The term God is being used as a statement of nature not position or name.

Jesus being God is not Jesus being His Father.


I disagree on the basis that I have presented scriptures that clearly disagree with your comment and identify Jesus as being separate to God in every way other than in ideology, in which they are surely one. There are more, such as Jesus praying to God to let him off being crucified, rendering his spirit to God. IOW, according to your reasoning Jesus asked himself to let him off being crucified and rendered his spirit to himself, which sounds ridiculous.

"To put it very simply, he does not say that Jesus was God.” Scholar Jason David BeDuhn likewise says: “In Greek, if you leave off the article from theos in a sentence like the one in John 1:1c, then your readers will assume you mean ‘a god.’ . . . Its absence makes theos quite different than the definite ho theos, as different as ‘a god’ is from ‘God’ in English.” BeDuhn adds: “In John 1:1, the Word is not the one-and-only God, but is a god, or divine being.” Or to put it in the words of Joseph Henry Thayer, a scholar who worked on the American Standard Version: “The Logos [or, Word] was divine, not the divine Being himself.”
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... jesus-god/

Then I found this....

"There are two issues affecting the translating of the verse, theology and proper application of grammatical rules. The commonly held theology that Jesus is God naturally leads one to believe that the proper way to render the verse is the one which is most popular.[19] The opposing theology that Jesus is subordinate to God as his Chief agent leads to the conclusion that "... a god" or "... divine" is the proper rendering.[20] Some scholars staunchly oppose the translation ...a god,[21][22][23][24] while other scholars believe it is possible or even preferable.[25][26][27]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_1:1

Above we see scholars disagreeing. JWs and some other faiths lean one way, others the other way. My view is...If God cared about the teaching of the Trinity, He shouldn't have left us with such a muddle. Hence I believe God doesn't care because Jesus is Divine and is Gods son and Jesus is special. God wants us to pray through Jesus, to acknowledge his sacrifice and divinity, but to pray to God, through Jesus, not to Jesus. How do I know? Jesus said so!

Jesus should have told us to worship himself and pray to himself, rather than to his Father. Jesus should have said we can all worship him after his ascension and we can also pray to him AFTER he ascends because he will be a part of God. Unfortunately for Trinitiarians, Jesus didn't.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby RickD » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:23 pm

Mazzy wrote:
RickD wrote:Mazzy,

The doctrine of the Trinity is man made. The doctrine represents the reality that God is A Trinity.

And Kurieuo is right. If you don't believe that Christ is God, you believe in a false Christ who cannot save.

You really need to think about this.


I believe Jesus is God's son who came to provide ransom for mankind. I think it doesn't matter if you believe in the Trinity or not. One's view on the Trinity is not what brings you salvation. I think sects, faiths, and individuals like to make their own doctrine and suggest they themselves are the way, the truth and the light.

The JWs say if you believe in the Trinity you are a pagan. You are opposed, suggesting if one doesn't accept the Trinity then one believes in a false Christ.
I think Jesus was clever with his words. Divisions will come to show the one approved by God. I think maybe you should really think about this.

I'm not saying that if you don't believe in the Trinity, that you necessarily believe in a false Christ. I said that if you don't believe Christ is God, then you believe in a false Christ. You are correct that a belief in the Trinity is not what saves. A belief, a trusting in Christ, is what saves. But one has to trust in the correct Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Mazzy » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:25 pm

RickD wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
RickD wrote:Mazzy,

The doctrine of the Trinity is man made. The doctrine represents the reality that God is A Trinity.

And Kurieuo is right. If you don't believe that Christ is God, you believe in a false Christ who cannot save.

You really need to think about this.


I believe Jesus is God's son who came to provide ransom for mankind. I think it doesn't matter if you believe in the Trinity or not. One's view on the Trinity is not what brings you salvation. I think sects, faiths, and individuals like to make their own doctrine and suggest they themselves are the way, the truth and the light.

The JWs say if you believe in the Trinity you are a pagan. You are opposed, suggesting if one doesn't accept the Trinity then one believes in a false Christ.
I think Jesus was clever with his words. Divisions will come to show the one approved by God. I think maybe you should really think about this.

I'm not saying that if you don't believe in the Trinity, that you necessarily believe in a false Christ. I said that if you don't believe Christ is God, then you believe in a false Christ. You are correct that a belief in the Trinity is not what saves. A belief, a trusting in Christ, is what saves. But one has to trust in the correct Christ.


To speak of the 'correct' Christ, implies there is more than one Christ. I realize that is not what you are suggesting. However, generally I don't class myself as a believer in the Trinity, but I do believe Jesus is Christ, our Savior and divine. Therefore I suggest, I meet the criteria for having faith in Christ, regardless of not accepting Jesus is somehow one part of three.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Philip » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:04 pm

Mazzy: I do believe Jesus is Christ, our Savior and divine. Therefore I suggest, I meet the criteria for having faith in Christ, regardless of not accepting Jesus is somehow one part of three ...


But do you believe Jesus is God? Do you believe the Father is God? Do you believe they are both God at the same time?

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Kurieuo » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:54 pm

We could respond to all your Scripture Mazzy, some has been properly interpreted in other threads throughout discussions, but experience tells me you're not open to the possibility that Jesus is God right now. Perhaps in time, as you're led in life you'll be come more open to such.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Philip » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:04 pm

What is a key attribute of God? That He NEVER changes! Right? He's not God one moment, and then in another He's not - or He's hands His Deity off to another, for whatever period of time. God is always God - with 100% of all of His attributes eternally.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Kurieuo » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:19 pm

To also add Mazzy, we're both strong in our words but I hope you understand such is the nature of truth and not in anyway reflects that I respect you as a valuable member of the board especially given our currently diminishing sandwich makers, err female poster population.
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Mazzy » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:53 pm

Philip wrote:
Mazzy: I do believe Jesus is Christ, our Savior and divine. Therefore I suggest, I meet the criteria for having faith in Christ, regardless of not accepting Jesus is somehow one part of three ...


But do you believe Jesus is God? Do you believe the Father is God? Do you believe they are both God at the same time?


To be clear...

But do you believe Jesus is God? No. I have posted many scriptures that support my view.
Do you believe the Father is God? Yes
Do you believe they are both God at the same time? No.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Mazzy » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:59 pm

Philip wrote:What is a key attribute of God? That He NEVER changes! Right? He's not God one moment, and then in another He's not - or He's hands His Deity off to another, for whatever period of time. God is always God - with 100% of all of His attributes eternally.


Yep, God is always the same God. He did not split off a 3rd of himself, send that bit down to earth and call it Jesus, and ask a third of himself, Jesus, to call Him the Father.

Why? Because while Jesus was on earth, God was fully in heaven (not only partially), where God was in control of the world, and watching his son sacrifice himself for the forgiveness of mankind.

There is no mystery here. I think it is really very easy to follow if one is not a trinitarian....

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Mazzy » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:06 pm

Kurieuo wrote:To also add Mazzy, we're both strong in our words but I hope you understand such is the nature of truth and not in anyway reflects that I respect you as a valuable member of the board especially given our currently diminishing sandwich makers, err female poster population.


Thank you. One of my challenges is to not get hot under the collar. When I first posted on this topic I wasn't even going to come back to it as I really don't care about the Trinity view. Most of you are likely better examples of Christians than I will ever be, including Hugh whom I love to lock horns with. :ewink:

You lot are amazing in the way you can keep calm and collected! :clap:

I'll agree to disagree with many of you. I hope you don't think less of me as a Christian...... :amen:

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Kurieuo » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:08 pm

Mazzy wrote:
Philip wrote:What is a key attribute of God? That He NEVER changes! Right? He's not God one moment, and then in another He's not - or He's hands His Deity off to another, for whatever period of time. God is always God - with 100% of all of His attributes eternally.


Yep, God is always the same God. He did not split off a 3rd of himself, send that bit down to earth and call it Jesus, and ask a third of himself, Jesus, to call Him the Father.

Why? Because while Jesus was on earth, God was fully in heaven (not only partially), where God was in control of the world, and watching his son sacrifice himself for the forgiveness of mankind.

There is no mystery here. I think it is really very easy to follow if one is not a trinitarian....


Here to extend the "why" Mazzy posed, it would be impossible for God to visit us in human form. God must remain in "heaven" and it would be impossible for even God to enter into our world. Correct me if I'm wrong Mazzy. :P

(if my sarcasm isn't clear, no I do not agree with such statements, and really expect Mazzy wouldn't either)
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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