Jehovah witnesses

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby RickD » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:48 pm

goingsouth wrote:Rick,

Jesus has all the attributes of God. Everything that God is Jesus is. God's has more of these attributes which is simply saying... God is a greater being!

This is what Thayer says about the word 'greater' in John 14...
...used of those who surpass others---either in nature and power as God.

When you say "God", I'm assuming you mean "the Father". If that's not what you mean, please say so.

Are you saying that God the Father is a greater being than Jesus Christ? God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate beings? Jesus Christ is a lesser god? You're saying there's one God, known as the Father, and Jesus Christ is a different, and lesser God?

I'm trying to understand if this is what you're saying. I don't want to misrepresent what you mean.
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby goingsouth » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:04 pm

When you say "God", I'm assuming you mean "the Father". If that's not what you mean, please say so.
Of course that's what I mean. God is one person and ONE being. (with exceptions) Jesus being God doesn't mean that he's the same person, only that he has the same attributes, the same mind. Jesus and God are one in mind and purpose. God is not three different persons.
Are you saying that God the Father is a greater being than Jesus Christ?

NO! Jesus said that I just happen to agree with him.
God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate beings?

Yes, and Jesus has the same divine attributes as God.
Jesus Christ is a lesser god?

NO. Jesus is less than God!
You're saying there's one God, known as the Father, and Jesus Christ is a different, and lesser God?

No! Jesus is the same as God, they are of the same mind and spirit. God the father is simply greater! I know what you're getting at and it's not going to work!
I'm trying to understand if this is what you're saying. I don't want to misrepresent what you mean.

It's not that difficult to understand. Jesus is God. They have the same divine attributes, the same mind, same purpose, and of the same spirit. They are ONE in that respect. God is the boss! Jesus said so when he said god is greater and the servant is not greater than the master!
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Philip » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:41 pm

Rick: God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate beings?


GoingSouth: Yes, and Jesus has the same divine attributes as God.


IF Jesus and the father are separate beings, then that automatically means there are two different gods. And that is polytheism and unScriptural! Only if they are together within the same Being is there One God - which is what Scripture prolifically teaches.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby goingsouth » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:01 pm

IF Jesus and the father are separate beings, then that automatically means there are two different gods.

NO! It means that they are two separate beings with the same divine attributes, God the Father being the greater and ORIGINATOR. They have the same mind, purpose and spirit. If anything, it's the trinitarians who should be called out on the idea of THREE different Gods!
And that is polytheism and unScriptural! Only if they are together within the same Being is there One God - which is what Scripture prolifically teaches.

Polytheism is unscriptural just like the trinity!
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby RickD » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:51 pm

RickD wrote:
God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate beings?


goingsouth wrote:
Yes, and Jesus has the same divine attributes as God.


By definition, "being" is the nature or essence of a person. So, when you say God the Father, and Jesus are two different beings, by definition, you are saying they have different natures. And since you would agree that God is one, then by definition, you are saying Christ has a different nature than The Father. And the logical conclusion to what you are saying, is that Christ is not God.

Do you understand where your belief leads?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Philip » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:13 pm

GoingSouth: NO! It means that they are two separate beings with the same divine attributes, God the Father being the greater and ORIGINATOR.


Originator??? That would mean that the Father created the Son - meaning, the Son is not eternal, and that His essence and being are dependent and derivative of another Being who is God. Separate beings equal separate Gods. That is the very illustration of polytheism. Two separate beings cannot share the same essence, because the essence of both are different. And if they do not have identical characteristics, they are not equals.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:53 am

One must distinguish statements of authority ( The Father is greater, Only God is good) from statements of nature ( and the Word was God).

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby thatkidakayoungguy » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:48 pm

goingsouth wrote:
IF Jesus and the father are separate beings, then that automatically means there are two different gods.

NO! It means that they are two separate beings with the same divine attributes, God the Father being the greater and ORIGINATOR. They have the same mind, purpose and spirit. If anything, it's the trinitarians who should be called out on the idea of THREE different Gods!
And that is polytheism and unScriptural! Only if they are together within the same Being is there One God - which is what Scripture prolifically teaches.

Polytheism is unscriptural just like the trinity!

Zechariah 12:10 at least hints at Jesus being God, indicating a trinity.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Mazzy » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:48 am

PaulSacramento wrote:One must distinguish statements of authority ( The Father is greater, Only God is good) from statements of nature ( and the Word was God).


John 1:1 is one place that the New World Translation of the Jw's is different from the mainstream...and the Word was a god. The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. I have not researched this so I do not know if this assertion is factual.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -word-god/

The scriptures speak of other gods, however, I don't believe there is more than one God in the sense it was meant to be taken. Any idol, money, can be a God. For example...

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
Exodus 15:11 “Who is like you, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like you, majestic in holiness, awesome in glorious deeds, doing wonders?
Deuteronomy 6:14 "You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are around you—"
1 Corinthians 8:1-8 "Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he is known by God. Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— ...

I am not taking any position on this. However, Jesus being a separate being of one in mind with His father, is one of the JW positions that can be well supported directly through scripture.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Kurieuo » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:12 am

Mazzy wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:One must distinguish statements of authority ( The Father is greater, Only God is good) from statements of nature ( and the Word was God).


John 1:1 is one place that the New World Translation of the Jw's is different from the mainstream...and the Word was a god. The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. I have not researched this so I do not know if this assertion is factual.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -word-god/

Yes, you can trick JWs up on John 1 with a pen and paper, and a few simple questions.

1) Draw two circles on the page, then underneath label one "Created" and the other "Uncreated".
2) Ask them which circle God belongs in? Write "God" or "Jehovah" in the uncreated circle. (which will be their answer)
3) Ask them what everything else that came into existence belongs in? Write "all that came into existence" in the "created" circle. (which again, ought to be their answer)
4) Now read John 1:1-4. Have them identify who the Word of God is.
5) Ask them, "which circle the Word of God (Jesus) belongs in?"
6) If they say "Created", ask them to re-read verse 4 which says even in their NWT Bible: "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."
7) So then, ask them again, which circle does Jesus belong in, if all things that came into existence was done through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence?

The clear answer is Jesus belongs in the "Uncreated" circle, and that circle is only reserved for God/Jehovah.

PS. I have looked into it, and their is absolutely zero reason to interpret such as "a god". Nonetheless, aside from the little exercise above, Jesus can be still be shown to be Jehovah even in their own NWT.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Kurieuo » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:26 am

I will say this, anyone who doesn't believe in the deity of Christ, doesn't believe in Christ in the same sense that I, the Apostles and other truer Christians do. Consider that Muslims also believe in Christ, believing Jesus to be a prophet of Allah. Even Atheists may believe in Christ, often believing Him to be a likable and wise man. Yet, all such do not believe in Christ as I do.

As such, sadly, JWs are a Christian cult. This means to me that they destroy an essential message to the Gospel. Specifically, the One responsible for all of the created world wherein there is good, but also pain and suffering. The Creator leaves His own "throne", lowering Himself into a humble servant and placing His own life into hands of His Creation. The Creator too suffers from His creation, in coming down to Earth and dwelling amongst us in human form. All in accordance to the divine plan of redeeming us, which was hatched according to Scripture before the act of creation. And, by carrying out the divine plan, God keeps His covenant/promise to Abraham, demonstrating that He is faithful in honouring His promises even when we do not and deserve nothing but God's wrath.

To believe Christ is someone other than God, is to say God simply commissioned a creature, however glorious, nonetheless a creature to wear our punishment. We may as well have continued sacrificing spotless doves and sheep for all eternity akin to what Israel has done. God in such a scenario still remains afar, keeps us at a distance. Such isn't the God I believe in -- One who loves us regardless of our sin, regardless of our turning away from Him, who really desires us to be with Him. The God who doesn't just remain afar from us, but who willingly chose to suffer alongside us in His creation out of a pure love, compassion and desire to be with us and for us to be with Him.
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:47 am

Mazzy wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:One must distinguish statements of authority ( The Father is greater, Only God is good) from statements of nature ( and the Word was God).


John 1:1 is one place that the New World Translation of the Jw's is different from the mainstream...and the Word was a god. The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. I have not researched this so I do not know if this assertion is factual.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -word-god/

The scriptures speak of other gods, however, I don't believe there is more than one God in the sense it was meant to be taken. Any idol, money, can be a God. For example...

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
Exodus 15:11 “Who is like you, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like you, majestic in holiness, awesome in glorious deeds, doing wonders?
Deuteronomy 6:14 "You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are around you—"
1 Corinthians 8:1-8 "Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he is known by God. Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— ...

I am not taking any position on this. However, Jesus being a separate being of one in mind with His father, is one of the JW positions that can be well supported directly through scripture.



I have researched this and the JW's are incorrect.
Even in the OT there is a "two Yahweh" implication.
Those groups that deny the trinity do so because they are trying to distance themselves from mainstream Christianity, it is simple.
The worldview of the OT and NT was that there were many "gods" ( divine beings) BUT that ONLY Yahweh was the creator God, the supreme God.
The NWT adding the "a" in John 1 and so many other changes ( like the changes to Romans, Colossians and so forth) were done to deny the deity of Christ, something that the first and second generation disciples and apostles confirmed.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:48 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:One must distinguish statements of authority ( The Father is greater, Only God is good) from statements of nature ( and the Word was God).


John 1:1 is one place that the New World Translation of the Jw's is different from the mainstream...and the Word was a god. The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. I have not researched this so I do not know if this assertion is factual.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -word-god/

Yes, you can trick JWs up on John 1 with a pen and paper, and a few simple questions.

1) Draw two circles on the page, then underneath label one "Created" and the other "Uncreated".
2) Ask them which circle God belongs in? Write "God" or "Jehovah" in the uncreated circle. (which will be their answer)
3) Ask them what everything else that came into existence belongs in? Write "all that came into existence" in the "created" circle. (which again, ought to be their answer)
4) Now read John 1:1-4. Have them identify who the Word of God is.
5) Ask them, "which circle the Word of God (Jesus) belongs in?"
6) If they say "Created", ask them to re-read verse 4 which says even in their NWT Bible: "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."
7) So then, ask them again, which circle does Jesus belong in, if all things that came into existence was done through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence?

The clear answer is Jesus belongs in the "Uncreated" circle, and that circle is only reserved for God/Jehovah.

PS. I have looked into it, and their is absolutely zero reason to interpret such as "a god". Nonetheless, aside from the little exercise above, Jesus can be still be shown to be Jehovah even in their own NWT.



If I recall correctly, in the NWT they insert (other) into the verse you quote in your point 6.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Kurieuo » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:53 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:One must distinguish statements of authority ( The Father is greater, Only God is good) from statements of nature ( and the Word was God).


John 1:1 is one place that the New World Translation of the Jw's is different from the mainstream...and the Word was a god. The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. I have not researched this so I do not know if this assertion is factual.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -word-god/

Yes, you can trick JWs up on John 1 with a pen and paper, and a few simple questions.

1) Draw two circles on the page, then underneath label one "Created" and the other "Uncreated".
2) Ask them which circle God belongs in? Write "God" or "Jehovah" in the uncreated circle. (which will be their answer)
3) Ask them what everything else that came into existence belongs in? Write "all that came into existence" in the "created" circle. (which again, ought to be their answer)
4) Now read John 1:1-4. Have them identify who the Word of God is.
5) Ask them, "which circle the Word of God (Jesus) belongs in?"
6) If they say "Created", ask them to re-read verse 4 which says even in their NWT Bible: "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."
7) So then, ask them again, which circle does Jesus belong in, if all things that came into existence was done through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence?

The clear answer is Jesus belongs in the "Uncreated" circle, and that circle is only reserved for God/Jehovah.

PS. I have looked into it, and their is absolutely zero reason to interpret such as "a god". Nonetheless, aside from the little exercise above, Jesus can be still be shown to be Jehovah even in their own NWT.



If I recall correctly, in the NWT they insert (other) into the verse you quote in your point 6.

Unless they've since revised their translation: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/john/1/
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:58 am

Sorry, I meant in meant this verse:

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bibl ... ossians/1/

Not the "other" that is added in and not in the original text in verses 16 and on.

Compare with ESV:


The Preeminence of Christ
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by[f] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.


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