Jehovah witnesses

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
thatkidakayoungguy
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby thatkidakayoungguy » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:03 pm

Why do the JWs distort Scripture? What was the point in Charles Russel to do so?

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Philip » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:56 pm

K, have YOU ever used the two circles and John 1 on JWs?

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Kurieuo » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:18 pm

No, but I've often had exchanges with JWs.

The last one, was a nice older lady, she liked dropping off her booklets. I rarely read them, and she didn't seem keen to discuss disagreements, so I kept it that way. We would just agree with each other on things we agreed with, more about the world, world issues and the like. I suppose she felt good doing the JW thing with dropping off her booklet. There is a lot in common, lighter issues, that can be discussed.

If I ever invited a JW inside though, as I had done about 20 years ago to dig into Scripture, then the circle exercise is one I really want to do. I'd expect, a JW who doesn't mind putting aside their English translations, might venture into saying our English Bibles are just translations and not the actual words of the original text. So, they might more be willing the sacrifice their Enlgish translation to say in the original language this/that word is better translated as ....

I'd expect they'd try to put a few stones in my own shoe back by focusing on other parts of Scripture they believe shows Christ isn't God. If they didn't have a response, then go away, present the issue to elders in their church, and come back with a response next time around. There is really only so much you can do in say a 30min-1 hour exchange per week. People rarely change their strongly-held beliefs in even more responsive discussions on boards like this. We all dig our heels in. So, unless they're already questioning their JWism, it is doubtful whether such would suddenly change their minds. The best you can do, is to pile as many stones in their shoes as possible.

Nonetheless, it is a good exercise for Christians (secure in their faith) to dialogue with JWs. It can be very challenging, especially if one hasn't developed reasons for their beliefs. With my first JW interchange, the Internet was just starting to come into use, but Google hadn't even made its way onto the scene really. Finding information online wasn't as accessible as it is today, so it was quite challenging. It were JWs that spawned me to buy many books, reading them and the like. Without them, I wouldn't be the often logical and rational Kurieuo you have before you today.

So, I'll never slam a door in a JWs face, nor even want to brush them off. Unlike Mormons, when they came, I just brushed them off as quickly as I could and they haven't returned since. :P
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Mazzy » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:24 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:One must distinguish statements of authority ( The Father is greater, Only God is good) from statements of nature ( and the Word was God).


John 1:1 is one place that the New World Translation of the Jw's is different from the mainstream...and the Word was a god. The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. I have not researched this so I do not know if this assertion is factual.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -word-god/

Yes, you can trick JWs up on John 1 with a pen and paper, and a few simple questions.

1) Draw two circles on the page, then underneath label one "Created" and the other "Uncreated".
2) Ask them which circle God belongs in? Write "God" or "Jehovah" in the uncreated circle. (which will be their answer)
3) Ask them what everything else that came into existence belongs in? Write "all that came into existence" in the "created" circle. (which again, ought to be their answer)
4) Now read John 1:1-4. Have them identify who the Word of God is.
5) Ask them, "which circle the Word of God (Jesus) belongs in?"
6) If they say "Created", ask them to re-read verse 4 which says even in their NWT Bible: "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."
7) So then, ask them again, which circle does Jesus belong in, if all things that came into existence was done through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence?

The clear answer is Jesus belongs in the "Uncreated" circle, and that circle is only reserved for God/Jehovah.

PS. I have looked into it, and their is absolutely zero reason to interpret such as "a god". Nonetheless, aside from the little exercise above, Jesus can be still be shown to be Jehovah even in their own NWT.


I haven't read all the posts yet, but the above wouldn't stump a JW. God created Jesus before the making of the world, so JW's have no problem saying Jesus was along side God in making the creation.

Then you would be pointed To Jesus saying the Father is greater than Jesus is and Jesus would not be praying to himself. The non JW's are left having to reason away other scriptures.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Mazzy » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:40 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:One must distinguish statements of authority ( The Father is greater, Only God is good) from statements of nature ( and the Word was God).


John 1:1 is one place that the New World Translation of the Jw's is different from the mainstream...and the Word was a god. The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. I have not researched this so I do not know if this assertion is factual.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -word-god/

The scriptures speak of other gods, however, I don't believe there is more than one God in the sense it was meant to be taken. Any idol, money, can be a God. For example...

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
Exodus 15:11 “Who is like you, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like you, majestic in holiness, awesome in glorious deeds, doing wonders?
Deuteronomy 6:14 "You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are around you—"
1 Corinthians 8:1-8 "Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he is known by God. Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— ...

I am not taking any position on this. However, Jesus being a separate being of one in mind with His father, is one of the JW positions that can be well supported directly through scripture.



I have researched this and the JW's are incorrect.
Even in the OT there is a "two Yahweh" implication.
Those groups that deny the trinity do so because they are trying to distance themselves from mainstream Christianity, it is simple.
The worldview of the OT and NT was that there were many "gods" ( divine beings) BUT that ONLY Yahweh was the creator God, the supreme God.
The NWT adding the "a" in John 1 and so many other changes ( like the changes to Romans, Colossians and so forth) were done to deny the deity of Christ, something that the first and second generation disciples and apostles confirmed.


Yes, the JWs agree there is only One God Jehovah. However they see Jesus as a god, the point being God never meant there is another supreme God.

I don't think one has to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian any more than one has to attend church regularly to be saved. The Trinity may be a human construct. This assertion is not merely based on hearsay, it appears to be a historical fact.

"The council of Nicaea dealt primarily with the issue of the deity of Christ. Over a century earlier the term "Trinity" (Τριάς in Greek; trinitas in Latin) was used in the writings of Origen (185–254) and Tertullian (160–220), and a general notion of a "divine three", in some sense, was expressed in the second century writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr. In Nicaea, questions regarding the Holy Spirit were left largely unaddressed until after the relationship between the Father and the Son was settled around the year 362.[77] So the doctrine in a more full-fledged form was not formulated until the Council of Constantinople in 360 AD,[78] and a final form formulated in 381 AD, primarily crafted by Gregory of Nyssa"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Kurieuo » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:25 am

Mazzy wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:One must distinguish statements of authority ( The Father is greater, Only God is good) from statements of nature ( and the Word was God).


John 1:1 is one place that the New World Translation of the Jw's is different from the mainstream...and the Word was a god. The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. I have not researched this so I do not know if this assertion is factual.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -word-god/

Yes, you can trick JWs up on John 1 with a pen and paper, and a few simple questions.

1) Draw two circles on the page, then underneath label one "Created" and the other "Uncreated".
2) Ask them which circle God belongs in? Write "God" or "Jehovah" in the uncreated circle. (which will be their answer)
3) Ask them what everything else that came into existence belongs in? Write "all that came into existence" in the "created" circle. (which again, ought to be their answer)
4) Now read John 1:1-4. Have them identify who the Word of God is.
5) Ask them, "which circle the Word of God (Jesus) belongs in?"
6) If they say "Created", ask them to re-read verse 4 which says even in their NWT Bible: "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."
7) So then, ask them again, which circle does Jesus belong in, if all things that came into existence was done through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence?

The clear answer is Jesus belongs in the "Uncreated" circle, and that circle is only reserved for God/Jehovah.

PS. I have looked into it, and their is absolutely zero reason to interpret such as "a god". Nonetheless, aside from the little exercise above, Jesus can be still be shown to be Jehovah even in their own NWT.


I haven't read all the posts yet, but the above wouldn't stump a JW. God created Jesus before the making of the world, so JW's have no problem saying Jesus was along side God in making the creation.

Of course, anyone can always just ignore what is plainly said and do this....

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:36 am

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:Why do the JWs distort Scripture? What was the point in Charles Russel to do so?

Russel didn't, it was Rutherford after him and the "Governing Body" after Rutherford.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:40 am

While one does not have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, one does have to understand that Jesus is God and that the HS is God.
I tend to believe that the Trinity doctrine needs to be "reworded" for modern times, I don't know many that fully understand it to be honest.

I think that the biggest issue isn't even Jesus because even JW's accepot that He is God (in some form), the issue is the HS and that they do NOT accept that the HS is anything but an impersonal force.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby RickD » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:36 pm

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1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Mazzy » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:02 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:One must distinguish statements of authority ( The Father is greater, Only God is good) from statements of nature ( and the Word was God).


John 1:1 is one place that the New World Translation of the Jw's is different from the mainstream...and the Word was a god. The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. I have not researched this so I do not know if this assertion is factual.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -word-god/

Yes, you can trick JWs up on John 1 with a pen and paper, and a few simple questions.

1) Draw two circles on the page, then underneath label one "Created" and the other "Uncreated".
2) Ask them which circle God belongs in? Write "God" or "Jehovah" in the uncreated circle. (which will be their answer)
3) Ask them what everything else that came into existence belongs in? Write "all that came into existence" in the "created" circle. (which again, ought to be their answer)
4) Now read John 1:1-4. Have them identify who the Word of God is.
5) Ask them, "which circle the Word of God (Jesus) belongs in?"
6) If they say "Created", ask them to re-read verse 4 which says even in their NWT Bible: "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."
7) So then, ask them again, which circle does Jesus belong in, if all things that came into existence was done through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence?

The clear answer is Jesus belongs in the "Uncreated" circle, and that circle is only reserved for God/Jehovah.

PS. I have looked into it, and their is absolutely zero reason to interpret such as "a god". Nonetheless, aside from the little exercise above, Jesus can be still be shown to be Jehovah even in their own NWT.


I haven't read all the posts yet, but the above wouldn't stump a JW. God created Jesus before the making of the world, so JW's have no problem saying Jesus was along side God in making the creation.

Of course, anyone can always just ignore what is plainly said and do this....

Image


I suppose posting comics says it all about someone's opinion. No doubt you have all the answers. Now you need to go tell God how it is :pound:
I love to hear Christians bagging out other Christians! It's so very Christian, don't you think?

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Mazzy » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:23 am

PaulSacramento wrote:While one does not have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, one does have to understand that Jesus is God and that the HS is God.
I tend to believe that the Trinity doctrine needs to be "reworded" for modern times, I don't know many that fully understand it to be honest.

I think that the biggest issue isn't even Jesus because even JW's accepot that He is God (in some form), the issue is the HS and that they do NOT accept that the HS is anything but an impersonal force.


I agree that one does not have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian.

Jesus may have said to baptize in the name of the father, the Son and the HS, but that is as close as he came to any notion of a trinity. Now where in the bible do we hear Jesus speaking of the Trinity, or praying to the HS. I believe the HS is an active force. If the Trinity was important Jesus would have spoken to it and directed his followers to acknowledge a threesome.

The Nicene Creed and the Trinity is a human construct. This info below is common knowledge. It is not a secret that the Trinity was developed by man.

"About a century later, in 325, the Council of Nicea set out to officially define the relationship of the Son to the Father, in response to the controversial teachings of Arius. Led by bishop Athanasius, the council established the doctrine of the Trinity as orthodoxy and condemned Arius' teaching that Christ was the first creation of God. The creed adopted by the council described Christ as "God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.""
http://www.religionfacts.com/trinity#3

Jesus prayed to His Father and instructed everyone else to do so. Jesus also wanted mankind to acknowledge the blood He was about to shed for mankind.

Any way, that's my stance. I am not a Trinitarian. That's why I attend Presbyterian Church, we don't recite the Nicene Creed, although the faith do accept the Trinity.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Kurieuo » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:24 am

Mazzy wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
John 1:1 is one place that the New World Translation of the Jw's is different from the mainstream...and the Word was a god. The Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. I have not researched this so I do not know if this assertion is factual.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -word-god/

Yes, you can trick JWs up on John 1 with a pen and paper, and a few simple questions.

1) Draw two circles on the page, then underneath label one "Created" and the other "Uncreated".
2) Ask them which circle God belongs in? Write "God" or "Jehovah" in the uncreated circle. (which will be their answer)
3) Ask them what everything else that came into existence belongs in? Write "all that came into existence" in the "created" circle. (which again, ought to be their answer)
4) Now read John 1:1-4. Have them identify who the Word of God is.
5) Ask them, "which circle the Word of God (Jesus) belongs in?"
6) If they say "Created", ask them to re-read verse 4 which says even in their NWT Bible: "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."
7) So then, ask them again, which circle does Jesus belong in, if all things that came into existence was done through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence?

The clear answer is Jesus belongs in the "Uncreated" circle, and that circle is only reserved for God/Jehovah.

PS. I have looked into it, and their is absolutely zero reason to interpret such as "a god". Nonetheless, aside from the little exercise above, Jesus can be still be shown to be Jehovah even in their own NWT.


I haven't read all the posts yet, but the above wouldn't stump a JW. God created Jesus before the making of the world, so JW's have no problem saying Jesus was along side God in making the creation.

Of course, anyone can always just ignore what is plainly said and do this....

Image


I suppose posting comics says it all about someone's opinion. No doubt you have all the answers. Now you need to go tell God how it is :pound:
I love to hear Christians bagging out other Christians! It's so very Christian, don't you think?

1) What JWs believe isn't Christian.
2) They don't believe in the same Christ I do.
3) Your response was no response, but a mere burying your head in the sand as to what is said in John 1.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Kurieuo » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:36 am

Isaiah 44:6
    “Thus says [Jehovah], the King of Israel,
    And his Redeemer, [Jehovah] of hosts:
    ‘I am the First and I am the Last;
    Besides Me there is no God.
Rev 22:12-13
    12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Isaiah 40:3
    The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
    “Prepare the way of [Jehovah];
    Make straight in the desert
    A highway for our God.
Matthew 3:3
    For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:
    “The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
    ‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
    Make His paths straight.’”
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Mazzy » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:50 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Yes, you can trick JWs up on John 1 with a pen and paper, and a few simple questions.

1) Draw two circles on the page, then underneath label one "Created" and the other "Uncreated".
2) Ask them which circle God belongs in? Write "God" or "Jehovah" in the uncreated circle. (which will be their answer)
3) Ask them what everything else that came into existence belongs in? Write "all that came into existence" in the "created" circle. (which again, ought to be their answer)
4) Now read John 1:1-4. Have them identify who the Word of God is.
5) Ask them, "which circle the Word of God (Jesus) belongs in?"
6) If they say "Created", ask them to re-read verse 4 which says even in their NWT Bible: "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."
7) So then, ask them again, which circle does Jesus belong in, if all things that came into existence was done through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence?

The clear answer is Jesus belongs in the "Uncreated" circle, and that circle is only reserved for God/Jehovah.

PS. I have looked into it, and their is absolutely zero reason to interpret such as "a god". Nonetheless, aside from the little exercise above, Jesus can be still be shown to be Jehovah even in their own NWT.


I haven't read all the posts yet, but the above wouldn't stump a JW. God created Jesus before the making of the world, so JW's have no problem saying Jesus was along side God in making the creation.

Of course, anyone can always just ignore what is plainly said and do this....

Image


I suppose posting comics says it all about someone's opinion. No doubt you have all the answers. Now you need to go tell God how it is :pound:
I love to hear Christians bagging out other Christians! It's so very Christian, don't you think?

1) What JWs believe isn't Christian.
2) They don't believe in the same Christ I do.
3) Your response was no response, but a mere burying your head in the sand as to what is said in John 1.


There is a plethora of scriptures I can quote that demonstrates Jesus is not God. You have one that is very likely translated incorrectly.

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin. Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt. Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

You have one scripture to present, that was written in Greek. Greek does not contain definite articles. IOW: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was A god. I have many scriptures to back up my view. You have to reason away these 14 scriptures to add credibility to one scripture.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Postby Kurieuo » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:02 am

Those passages don't counter Christ's divinity at all, you can find responses online if you care to look at the other side of the coin. I must say, sadly, and logically, you're not Christian if you deny a foundational belief like Christ's divinity.

Muslims too believe in Christ, believing Him merely a prophet of God. JWs believe in Jesus, believing He was the archangel Michael. And you, I don't know what you believe, but you appear to believe in Christ a mere creature.

Logically, either you, Muslims or JWs are right, and I am wrong OR I (and a great many Christians) are right and you're all wrong. Logic further establishes that we believe in very different Christs, which you would possibly agree is quite serious -- since we are saved through believing in Him. I pray for your sake that I am wrong, or that your errant belief doesn't represent some deeper spiritual condition that fails to recognise your Lord at judgement.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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