Joseph Smith and the translation of the gold plates

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Fortigurn
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Post by Fortigurn »

Sargon wrote:LDS scholars employ the scientific findings of many non-LDS professionals as evidence and support for their conclusions.
I am aware of that. What I want is evidence that the non-LDS professionals draw the same conclusions regarding the evidence for the Book of Mormon that the LDS scholars do.
However, if you are asking me to provide you with the name of a non-believing scientist or scholar, whose objective has been to provide evidence for the Book of Mormon, you are crazy.
That is not what I am asking for.
Your automatic distrust of any scholarly work put together by a LDS is very telling.
I have not expressed an automatic distrust of any scholarly work put together by an LDS.
Sargon
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Post by Sargon »

But you know what? I bet you anything they would loose in a one on one debate..

Sargon, you keep thinking that your church has it all together.. It doesn't, ok? And the more people find out about the truth, the more people will leave...
For some reason you sound funny saying that. Like some kind of school yard bully.
You know what? They have more archaeological proof than the BoM ever did... And they involved real characters too..
Just a quick comment on this. Religious texts such as the bible and the koran have absolutely no archaeological evidence supporting the truth of their message. Sure, you can dig up Jerusalem, and you can locate Mt. Sinai (which hasn't been done), but you can't prove with any of that data that Moses was a real prophet, or that Jesus was really the Messiah.
However, as more and more archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon comes forth it does count as truth of the books message. Because of the unique and miraculous way in which it was produced, any type of physical proof for the cultures described in it proves not only that the cultures were real, but that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the one and only true church of God on the face of the planet.
Most LDS scholars will admit that we do not yet have that undeniable proof, and most believe that we never will, for it is not in the interest of God that men walk by sight. But the list of evidences is mounting, and for those who seriously study the issue the answer is clear.



Sargon
Fortigurn
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Post by Fortigurn »

Sargon wrote:Religious texts such as the bible and the koran have absolutely no archaeological evidence supporting the truth of their message. Sure, you can dig up Jerusalem, and you can locate Mt. Sinai (which hasn't been done), but you can't prove with any of that data that Moses was a real prophet, or that Jesus was really the Messiah.
Saying that you cannot prove the supernatural claims of the Bible through archaeological evidence is not the same as saying it has 'absolutely no archaeological evidence supporting the truth of its message'.

The fact is, as we both know, the Bible has far more archaeological support than the Book of Mormon.
However, as more and more archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon comes forth it does count as truth of the books message.
Could you provide a list of this evidence, as recognised by non-LDS professionals?
Because of the unique and miraculous way in which it was produced, any type of physical proof for the cultures described in it proves not only that the cultures were real, but that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the one and only true church of God on the face of the planet.
Why doesn't that apply equally to the Bible?
Most LDS scholars will admit that we do not yet have that undeniable proof, and most believe that we never will, for it is not in the interest of God that men walk by sight. But the list of evidences is mounting, and for those who seriously study the issue the answer is clear.
Sargon I'm afraid this is double talk. You can't have it both ways. Either the Book of Mormon is to be supported by archaeological evidence, or God wants men to walk by faith and not by sight.

This is the same doubletalk I always hear from Mormons on this issue. On the one hand they want to tell me we can trust the Book of Mormon because of its amazing accuracy, as proved by archaeology, but on the other hand they want to tell me (when the archaeology is found wanting), that God doesn't want the Book of Mormon to be proved by evidence such as this.

But it's a farce. From the very start of the Book of Mormon it has relied on hard, physical, 'in your face' and 'in your hands' evidence:

* The eyewitness testimony of the 4 and 8 witnesses

* The alleged handling of the golden plates

* The witnesses to the 'translation' process

* The witnesses to the Urim and Thummim and/or seerstone/s

* The Book of Abraham

* The remains of Zelph

* About 40 years worth of archaeological digs in North America, Meso-America, and the Middle East

Just look at Mormon pages such as this.

Let's face it, the LDS church and its members have always appealed to visible and tangible evidence to support the claims of the Book of Mormon.
Sargon
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Post by Sargon »

What happened?? I have already replied to Fortigurn's last post, and an entire thread that I started has been deleted. Can a moderator explain this to me??

Sargon
Let us not confuse what science reveals, with what we interpret science to reveal, and what we want science to reveal.
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Byblos
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Post by Byblos »

Sargon wrote:What happened?? I have already replied to Fortigurn's last post, and an entire thread that I started has been deleted. Can a moderator explain this to me??

Sargon
Sargon (and everyone else that may have lost posts),

The short explanation is that we had technical difficulties with the host server and had to switch to a new one using a site backup, losing some posts in the process.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

Byblos
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Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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