Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: G N O S T I C H E R E S Y

Postby jenna » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:45 am

Kurieuo wrote:Anger? ANGER!? No, not at all. It's simply to highlight the warning.

Anger? ANGER!? :pound: no, no anger there.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: G N O S T I C H E R E S Y

Postby IceMobster » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:14 pm

jenna wrote:ok, jumping in the middle here. Ice, are you a believer in God or not?

Yes. Not in the other 2 persons of the Godhead, though.
jenna wrote:you say you are not Christian, but then you tease someone about a YEC belief.

I don't think I need to be a Christian to ask for an explanation of such an irrational belief.
Kurieuo wrote:It depends in what way he "met God". If he means a physical revealing, then red alarms should rightfully be going off. Ask him why you should believe him? If offering proof and evidence wasn't beyond Jesus, than it is neither beyond your friend. Otherwise, he'll just have to content himself with your healthy skepticism. Let him be offended if that's how it takes it.

Well, he said that in one such prayer on their meeting (so, meeting is a bit different to this seminary I was on), he felt extreme heat and feeling of pure joy come out of his chest towards his head and started crying once he heard some inner voice (not his) say "I love you." As time went on and as he started crying harder the inner voice more loudly repeated the same sentence.
Kurieuo wrote:The strawman argument being made here is that Trinitarian doctrine is accepted by Christians because it's what the early church accepted. While it might be true in some instances, such is actually good reason for accepting such rather than rejecting. Yet, for our own sake, we should most definitely test our beliefs.

Oh, sorry. Didn't mean to portray it as such.
Kurieuo wrote:I wouldn't be sold on any one church, but by all means if you're being pulled towards it, check it out. Report back here your findings. I expect your guard will quite naturally be up, which in this instance, I think would be good. ;)
PS. What denomination or name do they go by?

Yeah, I went. They go with the name: "Pure Truth"

Well, allow me to tell you what happened and my observations (long text inbound)...

At the beginning and at the end of the seminary it reminded me heavily of that Jesus camp, only for adults. :mrgreen:
It was truly amazing how many fall under this some kind of hypnosis. Believe me when I say that all of the people here combined haven't heard so many "Thank you, Jesus." and "We/I love you, Jesus." before. Like, he used those instead of periods and commas at certain points and everyone repeats it every now and then.
Either way, before the lecture begun, people usually hugged (like really long hugs followed by "THANK YOU JESUS") and chatted for an hour. Interestingly, when that lecturer came, he hugged absolutely everyone in the room (some 50-70 people). Oh, and he calls himself Apostle (I dislike that heavily and pointed out to my friend that a Prophet (one who warns people) or simply a pastor/priest would be more appropriate and asked him why is that and he answered that Paul calls himself apostle, as well -- 2 Tim 1:1, Eph 1:1, 2 Cor 1:1, Col 1:1) Don't see how that gives him the right to call himself Apostle, but eh...
Afterwards, he started the lecture and said how other Churches are deluded by Satan. I must say that he knows the Scripture pretty well, throws quotes left and right to support what he says (I didn't check them since I do not remember them, but it sounds convincing). More specifically, he talked about the false doctrine of the eternal hell and used some verses from 1 Peter and a certain Epistle to show how Jesus went into hell (not above or stopped at the gates of hell as Catholic creed teaches, but into hell) for the eternal salvatory plan of God is for all of His children to return to him and he cares for every one of them (Luke 15:1-7) and an all loving Father simply can not leave any of His children behind so he descends into hell for them! He also explained that one of the reasons he did go to hell is to preach the Gospel to those who lived by the Book before JC came to Earth. Also mentioned how there is no such thing as purgatory. He made an analogy where if some jar maker decided to make a plan of making 10 jars and got one short or broken, the plan would not be perfect -- and God's plan can not be not perfect hence he seeks all of his children to return (again, Luke 15:1-7)
Of course, here I wanted to ask what of the verses in the Bible that clearly point out to the eternal fire (Matthew 3:12, Mark 9:44-49, Matthew 25:41). Having watched one of his seminary beforehand (I'd link it, but there is no English translation, so there is no point), there he talks how the world eternal is actually not without end and is actually just a long time, not a time period without ending. He said it more nicely and cohesively, but that's the main idea behind it. I am not satisfied with it, obviously.
He continued how you can not love someone you are afraid of and with this doctrine of the eternal fire, bad Christians push others farther away from God (since those being pushed away are afraid of the eternal fire, ya follow? :mrgreen: ).
What I found the most amusing is how after he said such Churches are deluded by Satan he proceeded to take some proclamation/revelation number XXXX (there are over 9000 of them) and read from it. So I figured that is where they get most of their doctrine from except for the Scripture. They believe there are 2 inherited sins (one before Adam and Eve when Lucifer, as the first created being, rebelled and departed from God and got named Satan (adversary) and the one from Adam&Eve). Jesus Christ is actually the 2nd created being and, once he accepted his role as the Son of Man and our Saviour, became God. They also believe there exist the so called Enlightened/Heightened(?) Teachers! They are already saved beings that came back to Earth to help others achieve the Kingdom of Heaven! However, they are not "sin-proof" and can therefore spread lies... Oh well, there are quite a lot of those Teachers and as you can see some of them wrote down the revelations they got from Jesus Christ!

Oooh, just found them: Neo-revelationism
"There are numerous examples of such instances in Christian mysticism, during the medieval period and in the modern era e.g. Jacob Boehme and Emanuel Swedenborg, and later Jakob Lorber (1800–1864), Gottfried Mayerhofer (1807–1877), Bertha Dudde (1891–1965) and others."

They also believe not in the resurrection of body. So only your spirit/soul.

Anyway, at one point he said he will read the comments of certain Catholics & Protestants critiques but never got to that because he went reading from one such a revelation themed Fighters for the Truth. Oh, well. Near the end he said that the comments of theirs will be read tomorrow and I was like really interested to hear that so....
After the lecture ended we prayed for like 5 minutes in silence before spreading the carpets and going into deep prayer hypnosis, lol. So, people came one by one to him, he would put his arm on them whilst saying "accept Jesus into your heart, just open your heart and thank you jesus we love you jesus" and so on. "In order for something to happen you need to acknowledge me as Christ's intercessor" etc...
And then people would cry and pray and thank Jesus and say Jeeeeeesus and hmmm... Well, then they would go to him and fall on their back losing consciousness. Power of thy words!
So, after like 15 minutes of that, I exited the building, lol. I have a feeling that my friend's sister (who was there for the first time, as well) and I were the only ones sane there.

Truly, though. Do you know of any scientific (psychological) research that explains this? It would be magnificent if some doctor went under cover and observed these charismatic events and made a research explaining this. Like, I saw this one guy, he was so happy and crying and was thanking Jesus as if he was on heavy drugs. And what is the deal with these losing consciousness? Holy Spirit overdose? :mrgreen:
RickD wrote:Don't go. They'll suck you in too.
I really don't want to say, "I told you so".

You told me what? WHY CAN'T I USE THE SPOILER FUNCTION, RICK? [spoiler]LOOK IT DOESN'T WORK[/spoiler]

B. W. wrote:
IceMobster wrote:
jenna wrote: I would have to hear what they teach before i answer
....Jesus was not God up until the point he decided to take the role of our Saviour.

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. NASB

The Pre-incarnate Jesus spoke these things as well...

Isa 41:4, Isa 44:6,8, Isa 48:12,13,

Then in Revelation 1:8,17,18 the same terms are used again revealing just whom He really is...

As for Gnosticism, suggest you read a scholarly article from CRI linked below:

Gnosticism and the Gnostic Jesus, CRI article

Have a nice day...

Yeah, "This knowledge is not considered to be the possession of the masses but of the Gnostics, the Knowers,..." pretty much. I mean elements of gnostic teaching is definitely present (through these 9000+ new revelations and stuff). I am pretty sure they don't believe in Gnostic Jesus, though.

Bible quotes you presented are n0ice. Will use them if this guy contacts me again. Hopefully not. :lol:

Thanks B.W.!
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.


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Re: G N O S T I C H E R E S Y

Postby Kurieuo » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:46 pm

IM wrote:Jesus Christ is actually the 2nd created being and, once he accepted his role as the Son of Man and our Saviour, became God. They also believe there exist the so called Enlightened/Heightened(?) Teachers!

This would make them Christian cult, since they believe Christ was a created being. Scripturally, this also directly conflicts with John 1 with the Word become flesh (Jesus) creating all that was created, without whom nothing was made that was made.

Christian cults generally have their authorities in place (teachers), who are enlightened and through whom Scripture can be "correctly" interpreted. With JWs, we have the Watchtower. With Mormons, they have their elders and BoM also. With the RCC they have the Vatican. (I added that last one in to tease some here :P)

As for the charisma, such I believe there is legitimate experience to be had. God uses our beliefs and reaches out to us in whatever manner we might be open to Him. That, to me, makes sense. So then, I could be in a church that is Pentecostal in nature, and have a valid experience with God during worship. Even if, the church has wrong doctrine or such experiences might be deemed excessive, unsupported Scripturally, wrong or what-have-you. God will use what we give Him in order to try reach us. Understand, Christianity has no cornerstone on overtly religious spiritual experiences.

Given belief that God has created angelic beings, some of whom have fallen, then we are to test the spirits. To determine whether they are from God. This includes words spoken, just as much as experience. Experiences though, might help you to realise that Christianity isn't merely intellectual, but also experiential. Craig uses this an his last line of argument during his debates, for example:

Experience of God

(4) Finally, God can be immediately known and experienced.

Now this isn't really an argument for God's existence. Rather it is the claim that you can know that God exists wholly apart from arguments simply by immediately experiencing Him. This was the way that people in the Bible knew God. As Professor John Hick explains,

God was known to them as a dynamic will interacting with their own wills, a sheer given reality … as inescapably to be reckoned with as destructive storm and life-giving sunshine. … They did not think of God as an inferred entity, but as an experienced reality. … To them God was not … an idea adopted by the mind, but the experiential reality which gave significance to their lives.{9}

Now if this is the case, then there is a danger that proofs for God could actually distract our attention from God Himself. If you are sincerely seeking God, then I believe that God will make His existence evident to you. The Bible promises, "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you."{10} We mustn't so concentrate on the external proofs that we fail to hear the inner voice of God speaking to our own hearts. For those who listen, God becomes an immediate reality in their lives.

Now Dr. Jesseph would dismiss this experience as being purely based on psychological factors and wish-fulfillment. But the point of the argument that I am giving here is that belief in God, when you experience Him and know Him, is a properly basic belief. It is like the belief in the existence of the external world. Sure, it's possible that there is no external world, that you are really a brain in a vat being stimulated with electrodes by a mad scientist to believe that you are here in this auditorium experiencing this lecture, when actually you are not. You are just a brain sitting in a vat of chemicals being stimulated to think that. But why believe such a hypothesis? Why doubt your experience of the external world? In the absence of good reasons to doubt that, you are within your rational rights in believing that experience to be veridical and genuine. Similarly, in the absence of any reasons to adopt atheism, why should I give up or deny my experience of the existence of God, which is so real and significant to me? (http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcrai ... raig2.html)

Yet, understand that for any legitimate form there are also many illegitimate forms. Mere special experience, and this confuses a lot of people who have spiritual experiences, such doesn't equate to legitimacy of teachings.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)



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