Genesis 2:18-20

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
DanielPech
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Genesis 2:18-20

Postby DanielPech » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:45 am

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In the present thread, I wish to clarify and discuss something.

First, I cite the record that I have in mind:


In the locked thread that I started on Genesis 1 (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41201), B.W. had said to me:

B.W. wrote:Your statement makes it sound like God was seeking in some manner for land animals as man's procreating partners


to which I had replied:

Daniel Pech wrote:I don't mean that at all, but you can't have it both ways. The fact is that the account (Gen 2:20) says 'no suitable mate was found for Adam.' Your reply, at least in effect, presupposes that the account was written or dictated by God, and that this as record of the most cluelessly simplistic intention on God's part.



to which B.W. replied

B.W. wrote:Again you state that you did not mean that at all and then next say can't have it both ways...

That is a logical contradiction. Are you aware of that or did you mean something else as I know that writing on an open forum one's meaning can be hard to express at times.


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Now, the thing I want to clarify here is as to the subject that I meant when I said "you can't have it both ways." What is the 'it" that you can't have both ways?

That "it" is a bit nuanced, at least for me. So now I shall attempt to articulate the identity of that "it"; that subject:


Genesis 2:18-20 does not, I repeat not, spell out that God Himself had a clue as to what sort of creature would be suitable for Adam as a companion, mate, and co-worker. Yet we do not therefore---in the way of a reductively literalistic interpretation---presume that God therefore must have been clueless in that department.

So we all are in basic opposition to such a reductively literalistic interpretation as to what God was thinking of in bringing animals to Adam so that Adam could name them. We do not think that God was clueless.

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But, for B.W.'s part, it seems to me that B.W. espouses a view on that with which I, at least currently, disagree.

___First___, it seems to me that B.W. espouses the view that Adam did not have, and could not have had, any (any) sense of his own calling until he had seen and named every last kind and species of land animal (excluding bugs). That is, is seems to me that B.W. espouses the view that not only did:

(A) God bring to Adam everything from mice and moose to kangaroo mice to musk oxen,

but also:

(B) Adam at that time named every last variety of those animals.


Either in this first pair ((A) and (B)) seems to me unnecessary either for God's own basic concern or for Adam's own sensibilities.



But, ___Second___, and as a nuance on the first, B.W. seems to me to espouse the view that Adam himself was clueless as to his own calling until after he had named every last variety of those animals.

The nuance here is this: One, I doubt that B.W. actually thinks this. Two, nevertheless, my point is that it appears to me that B.W. has not thought it through this far. That's why I bring it up:

One can picture a cartoon in which an absurd cartoon version Adam of is thinking to himself, "Western field mice are not my kind. What about kangaroo mice? Ah, here are the kangaroo mice now. Nope, they aren't my kind either. What about striped Japanese mice?"

Such a cartoon then goes on for however many days or weeks or months that it would take a person to "name" every last variety of every last kind of land animal that one may wish to imagine existed then.

--



Implied here is my sense that, in order for the YEC ordinary-day interpretation of Genesis 2:18-20 to be valid, there need be no original reduced set of varieties.

So, this is a separate question from that of the YEC position on species and kinds in Noah's ark, and of speciation that can have occurred since all those ark animals were let out of the ark.

...



To conclude:

To my often too-foggy brain, the only normatively rational question as to whether the YEC position on Genesis 2:18-20 is valid is whether that particular text requires that Adam have spent both:

(X) anything remotely like equal time, and this a considerable amount of time, naming every variety/kind, and

(Y) actually naming every last variety of a given kind.


One, I do not see how either (X) or (Y) is necessitated by the text. Two, I do not see how the position rationally can be maintained that "Adam was essentially clueless about it all until he had "named" every kind, much less every variety of ever kind."

And, if we find that this lattermost, underlined, position is grossly overly simplistic (as I think it should be found), then we are facing the rather complex, and far more generally human, question of what all did Adam sense, when did he sense it, and in response to all what, if anything, he sensed it. If he was not clueless of his calling, then he must have taken for granted some sense which the text does not spell out.

In short, the text is not, I repeat, not, a Complete Martian Idiot's Guide to What All That God and Adam Thought. Rather, it is a human account, and it is addressed to humans.


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B. W.
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Re: Genesis 2:18-20

Postby B. W. » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:15 pm

Hi Dan,

Before we get interrupted again or the thread hijacked into another area, let me clarify what I was addressing on that thread was not actually about the Hydrologic Cycle but rather Young Earth Creation Position concerning a 24 hour day.

As for the Hydrologic Cycle Genesis 2:5,6 says this: "...before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground." NKJV

The Hydrologic Cycle system was quite different back then than it is now. Neither does Hydrologic Cycle prove that each day of creation was a 24 hour solar earth day.

This next verse expresses that God's creation days were not based on six day based on have each day be 24 hours long...

Gen 2:4 NKJV This is the history (generations) of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

...but rather on God's own self - his own self existing timeless self. Generations/history refers to more than one day. In fact for the YEC Creation time frame to be literally true, then all applications of the word translated History ie generations must also be taken literally to mean a solar 24 hour day.

So when the bible says all the days of Noah were a total of 950 years and in Gen 6:9 as the history/generations of Noah's total time on earth . Then to be true to creation day time then Noah's time on earth was just a simple 24 hour day and not 950 years totaled he lived.

The word word translated History ie generations refers to a long period of time meaning more than just one 24 hour solar day because God decided by forethought to combat evolutionist theory infecting the church at a later time as a litmus test for one's salvation and justification to be burned at the stake as an heretic because such view undermines bible authority - well that is simply not sound thinking.

That is what I was addressing.

I was attempting to show how illogical it would be for a literal 24 hour sixth day for man to be created, know God in perfect fellowship, operated on, see Eve, and name all the animals as opposed to a generation of 24 hour days which would be years probably does nothing to UNDERMINE the legitimacy of the authority and inspiration of the bible one iota.

I was attempting to point out the crux of YEC position - defending the authority of the bible when the authority of the bible is not in question by OEC or GAP folks in the least.

That is the big issue. The Hydrologic Cycle argument and such wrangling over the word history/generations is a waste of time.

In all candor and respect to you, let's cut to the chase on this and settle the matter -YEC's accuse OEC - GAP folks as undermining bible authority. Ken Ham says this repeatedly. Frankly I am tired of hearing this false accusation and endless intellectual dribble to prove a false accusation. That is why such topics get so heated and threads are closed.

YEC pick a fight, OEC and GAP folks swing back, endlessly back and forth, and all get a black eye.

So are you going to say to an OEC website that we are undermining scripture all because we do not adhere to literal a 24 hour solar day for each of the six days of creation even when days 1 through 3 had no mechanism to measure a solar 24 hour cycle because the sun stars created were not created until the 4th day of creation?

Do you believe the OEC and GAP folks all believe in evolutionist theroy of a species changing into a whole new different species and thus undermine the bible?

Who in the heck can undermine the bible to begin with?

Is God so weak he needs YEC folks to defend him?

Come on now - lets get to the heart of the issue and stop beating around the bush and try actually listen to what OEC and GAP people actually believe instead of words jammed in our mouths.

For me, I do not hold to OEC due of Darwinism nor do I undermine bible authority either and to have Ken Ham paint with a broad brush the YEC position that those that do not adhere to his point of view is some sort a christian darewinst weakening faith in God and the bible is extremely insulting and Pharisaical.

Can you see that?

Can you see how that point of view actually shuts down all manner of communication and Christian love and forgiveness toward each other? How it increases strife, contention and every evil work?

My Point is this: Many, but thankfully not all, but many-many YEC have a Ken Ham presupposition about OEC / GAP Folks based not in reality but straw-man.

Bible authority is not undermined by OEC at all. Bible authority is undermined by human sin nature and no matter how hard that sin nature tries it will never undermine the authority of the word of God.

I just returned from an emergency counseling where a person being attacked with thoughts of self harm tonight. Within a few minutes of prayer, Jesus healed that broken heart and revealed in few minutes what secular counseling takes years to do concerning the root cause and dealt with it. So, if any YEC wants to accuse me of undermining bible authority because I am OEC fine, go ahead, I rely on the Holy Spirit and the authority of God's word on who he is, not anything else.

I have seen the Lord heal deafness and an amputated little toe pop back on the foot and many other things to numerous to list. The Lord used me to bear the message of salvation and help out leading folks to him. I have been used by the Lord, and only by his grace, plant churches and ministries train and equip folks in the ways of the Lord. I am an OEC and I do not and never will undermine the bible or its authority and neither does OEC.

People do not need OEC or GAP or, yes, even YEC, to undermine authority the word of God, because people have enough doubt built in their sin nature to not ever to pay any attention to God's authority at all - all by themselves and thus condemn themselves.

I forgive all YEC for there false accusations that OEC undermines the word God, So be it. Peace to you all...

I am so tired of never getting to the point how Ken Ham YEC types base their system on a false premise that the Word of God could ever be undermined when it is written:

Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
Isa 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa 55:10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater,
Isa 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
Isa 55:12 "For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace; The mountains and the hills Shall break forth into singing before you, And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. NKJV

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,' NKJV

Have a nice day and understand I hold no hate in my heart to any YEC person at all.

I forgive and move on as there is too much to do and too many hurting folks needing the authority from God's word to be set free and broken hearts healed.

Blessings...
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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AmySeilnum
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Re: Genesis 2:18-20

Postby AmySeilnum » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:33 pm

Genesis 2:20 "but for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him"
That is the literal translation.


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