"What group am I?"

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
Hortator
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"What group am I?"

Postby Hortator » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:15 pm

I do not know which group of creationists I would fall under, so I'm going to lay out what I believe, and hopefully somebody can set me straight. :fryingpan:

Also this is a dual-purpose thread. For anybody that doesn't know which "camp" of creation-thought they fall into, give a detailed description of what it is you believe. And don't be shy about it either, this isn't even a "settled" matter, so we could all be wrong anyway!

As for me, I believe the universe is 13.3 billion years old (as of right now, seeing as how they keep pulling the date forward) I believe that God was behind this "bang" as Cosmologists have termed it. I don't believe God chose to have an invisible hand in every affair that lead up to this point in our creation. I think, in his omniscience, he was able to set the "parameters" of the universe just so, that every event happened "for a reason" as even the layman understands the concept.

(for instance, "The strong nuclear force [which holds atoms together] has a value such that when the two hydrogen atoms fuse, 0.7% of the mass is converted into energy. If the value were 0.6% then a proton could not bond to a neutron, and the universe would consist only of hydrogen. If the value were 0.8%, then fusion would happen so readily that no hydrogen would have survived from the Big Bang." http://godandscience.org/apologetics/is_god_real.html )

So it wasn't as much a guided creation as it was a perfectly executed Rube Goldberg Machine of creating sentient life in a universe where it is very nearly impossible, probability-wise, for such a biological occurrence to appear.

Now with all that said, should I add more, or is there enough symptoms to diagnose me with something? :ill:

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RickD
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Re: "What group am I?"

Postby RickD » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:51 pm

Need more info. Everything you've said, fits into Theistic Evolution and Progressive Creation.

But, if you don't feel like you need to choose one or the other, you're in good company. William Lane Craig has said that he believes something in the middle of TE and PC.
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9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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IceMobster
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Re: "What group am I?"

Postby IceMobster » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:31 pm

I guess I am in the group "Don't know, don't care (that much), but definitely not coincidence"
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

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Silvertusk
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Re: "What group am I?"

Postby Silvertusk » Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:40 am

RickD wrote:Need more info. Everything you've said, fits into Theistic Evolution and Progressive Creation.

But, if you don't feel like you need to choose one or the other, you're in good company. William Lane Craig has said that he believes something in the middle of TE and PC.


That is probably where fit. - Although I believe the universe is 13.7 billion years old.

Happy to have evolution have a role - although probably lean to the idea that we (man) was specially created.

Similar to this clip from Noah I think.


crochet1949
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Re: "What group am I?"

Postby crochet1949 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:41 pm

Hortator
You're giving God 'some' power but not all that His Word gives Him.
A point has been made/ I Think / that this world isn't a happenstance -- it happened for a reason. Because there's no reason For any universe to just happen. It works / operates much too well to just happen.
So Why the 13.7 billion years. Why not 7 or 20 billion.

Actually, I'm in the Biblical creation group.

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HappyFlappyTheist
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Re: "What group am I?"

Postby HappyFlappyTheist » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:34 pm

crochet1949 wrote:Hortator
You're giving God 'some' power but not all that His Word gives Him.
A point has been made/ I Think / that this world isn't a happenstance -- it happened for a reason. Because there's no reason For any universe to just happen. It works / operates much too well to just happen.
So Why the 13.7 billion years. Why not 7 or 20 billion.

Actually, I'm in the Biblical creation group.


Just for clarification: Are you implying that belief in TE or progressive creationism hinders that persons belief in the omnipotence of God?
pulvis sum

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Philip
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Re: "What group am I?"

Postby Philip » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:31 pm

Happy to have evolution have a role - although probably lean to the idea that we (man) was specially created.


As mankind became a reality, and as God has ALWAYS known ALL future things that He would one day do and that would one day happen, as if they happened yesterday - then He did FAR more than put together some Creation mechanisms that would randomly/possibly result in some type of creatures and life - He KNEW precisely when He would create man and His purposes for Him, along with man's entire history that has yet to play out. Randomness does not produce certainty, and God created with certainty. And our free will does not change that - not from what God has always foreknown about us, and as to how He orchestrates history.

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Re: "What group am I?"

Postby Audie » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:09 pm

Where do you see "random" leaving off, and a steering hand taking over?
Atomic vibration? Can you think of any way that order emerges from chaos,
thro' random processes? Could one predict a beautiful waterfall from random raindrops? Would it have to be planned, in detail or in general?

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Philip
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Re: "What group am I?"

Postby Philip » Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:30 pm

Audie: Where do you see "random" leaving off, and a steering hand taking over?
Atomic vibration? Can you think of any way that order emerges from chaos,
thro' random processes? Could one predict a beautiful waterfall from random raindrops? Would it have to be planned, in detail or in general?


God designed physics,chemistry, biology, and the universe's mechanisms to function with great specicifity, and according to parameters He so desired. He has created and has control over how the governing laws function, and yet can interrupt those laws as per whatever purposes He might have, in a given moment. And, is this not what we see, tremendous, mind-blowing consistency in how things operate, and yet, we also see great awesome beauty across the world and universe, despite their many precise mechanisms. In fact, without this incredible consistency as to how things operate and interact, we could not depend upon the scientific method to give us reliable or consistent results. So, if you admit to the levels, even at the microscopic and sub-atomic ones, of complete consistency of function, across countless parameters and mechanisms, and yet still perceive great beauty, then what you might call random is anything but that - well, there just is no conflict - fixed parameters can CONTAIN considerable variability and also produce great beauty!

Do not atmospheric conditions obey the parameters of complex but consistent, and within well-known variabilities long documented by scientists? Of course! But is the weather, within known parameters, always the same? Ever seen two identical clouds? And, yet, while the PARAMETERS have great consistency within long-documented and data-driven observations and studies, there is, nonetheless, great variabilty possible WITHIN those same locked and consistent parameters.

God's consistent algorhythms governing mechanisms can produce great variability, but He can also micromanage/interrupt an otherwise specific/typical functionality of a mechanism, per His immediate purposes of a given moment. Of course, as HE created and designed the mechanism's functionality to begin with, as well as the entity or thing that is otherwise controlled by His governing laws, then He has authority and ability over all.

Now, does God not give us free will? Yes! But can I fly or walk through walls? Course not! Does God choose what color of socks I put on in the morning? Typically, no - unless He might have some rare but key purpose to influence MY decision. Can God not use others, and ALL parameters He controls, so as to influence the free-will decisions we make? Of course! He intimately knows our hearts, minds, and motivations. And He has total control over the range of choices we're ALLOWED, per His purposes, at any given moment. He knows that a person, with key self motivations, beliefs and attitudes, and so presented specific choices, will freely choose precisely per His purposes and desired outcomes. While the choices are freely made, nonetheless, God powerfully controls and knows all parameters, so as the achieve the results of His purposes. And, if we could not freely choose our own sinful actions, then God could not righteously accuse us of sinning, as the sin would not be OUR choice.

So, make no mistake, God is in no way hampered by our free-will choices. And He creates great beauty out of HIS stupendously precise mechanisms and their consistency of operation, FUNCTIONALITY, and interactivity - and even though there can be considerable variation found WITHIN their locked PARAMETERS, those are fixed and incredibly consistent, unless God ever desires to momentarily interrupt them. Far more typically, things function and operate just as they were originally designed to.

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melanie
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Re: "What group am I?"

Postby melanie » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:53 am

The Alpha and Omega with the most artistic, creative and Architectural brilliance that far surpasses any of our feeble attempts at explaining such, or our most comprehensible scientific explanations which we can only basically comprehend and still reaches far beyond our understanding boils downs to theories and stances.
I have some theories but I don't know.
I love delving into such, recently my thoughts have been stretched and challenged which is awesome! But I don't know.
It's an awful lot to completely get, from either a spiritual or scientific viewpoint. I'm a little sceptical of any person that thinks they've worked it all out.

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Re: "What group am I?"

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:36 am

My view is that God created the universe, created it and sustains it.
He endowed living organisms with the ability to adapt and to change to the effects of their environment ( a process we call evolution).
As the creator and sustainer He can choose to intervene at will at any point in His ONGOING creative process.
I believe Man is a unique creation of God, that divine intervention was used in Man's creation BUT that Man had, up to that point, evolved to a stage where God felt that a "special creation" was to be and that special creation was Adam and Eve.
I believe that the garden in Eden was a special creation of God on Earth.
A place where Heaven and Earth would meet, IF Adam and Eve had not faltered.


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