Young earth, old universe

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
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Byblos
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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Byblos » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:15 am

melanie wrote:I don't intend to throw this thread off topic, but I guess some truth is subject to an individual's reality. I was exactly like you FL, I didn't believe in the UFO thing at all. I actually laughed and mocked people who claimed otherwise untill my reality got a swift kick up the behind. I'm so very glad that I was not alone when I had my very real, very up close, very unexplainable encounter, thank God, literally, that there was no abduction involved. I know how it sounds, but that doesn't change my reality. And I don't expect people to believe me or take it on face value, because if I hadn't seen it for myself I wouldn't believe a second hand account either.


Would you be willing to share the details Melanie? I realize it must be difficult for you as it may put you in possible situation of ridicule but I can assure you at least not from my side. I've learned the hard way to never discount or dismiss people's personal beliefs and experiences since I've had some of my own.
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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby abelcainsbrother » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:26 am

There is something that young earthers overlook when reading Genesis 1.First off the first day and first time God actually starts to create the world it starts on verse 3 and before God does anything the heaven and earth are already created or there.Second if you go back it only takes you to Adam and Eve about 6-10,000 years ago not the heavens and the earth. I think this is overlooked by young earthers.Also have you ever wondered why God created the beasts of the field after their kind? I am a Gap theorist though and so we are different from regular old earthers.
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2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Philip » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:35 am

Are there some who have encounters with actual alien-piloted UFOs or are abducted by them? No! Then does that mean that these experiences are false? Yes and no. Some UFOs may be government experimental crafts or some type of natural phenomenon. But the rest of those truly experiencing a close up encounter with crafts or aliens - especially those seeing other beings or that are "abducted" - are likely encountering demons intent upon deception. So, while one's experience may have really happened, that in no way means that what they saw was of alien origin. Just the descriptions alone, of many abduction stories, sound very dark and demonic.

Plus, the physics involved with traveling across the vast distances from other star systems, and the immense speeds and vast lengths of time that would take, and the millions of deadly objects (also traveling at immense speeds), mean that alien visitation is a physical IMPOSSIBILITY! But DEMONIC visitation, as we examine Scripture, is a very REAL possibility.

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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Audie » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:14 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Audie wrote:If you are saying there are no truths in myths in or out of the bible thats fine.


You are confused and you jump to conclusions with disconcerting ease. Let me spell it out for you so that you understand clearly:

I am saying that there is no truth whatsoever in stories about Scandinavian trolls - what you call ''little people'' - and UFO abductions.

Audie wrote:There is no literal truth in the flood story.


Irrelevent to this discussion. One thing at a time:

Are you able to say that ''little people'' and UFO abductions have no basis in reality?

FL :D


You jumped to the conclusion that was referring to "Scandanavian little people", and I sure did not say "troll" as you so disconcertingly... :D

Tales of little people are to be found in many cultures. So are flood stories. Of course I cant say that there are no UFOs or little people. There might be a basis in reality.

Flood stories obviously have a basis in reality. Some are fluffed up into more than what they really were.

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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Audie » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:17 am

melanie wrote:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Audie wrote:If you are saying there are no truths in myths in or out of the bible thats fine.


You are confused and you jump to conclusions with disconcerting ease. Let me spell it out for you so that you understand clearly:

I am saying that there is no truth whatsoever in stories about Scandinavian trolls - what you call ''little people'' - and UFO abductions.

Audie wrote:There is no literal truth in the flood story.


Irrelevent to this discussion. One thing at a time:

Are you able to say that ''little people'' and UFO abductions have no basis in reality?



FL :D


I don't intend to throw this thread off topic, but I guess some truth is subject to an individual's reality. I was exactly like you FL, I didn't believe in the UFO thing at all. I actually laughed and mocked people who claimed otherwise untill my reality got a swift kick up the behind. I'm so very glad that I was not alone when I had my very real, very up close, very unexplainable encounter, thank God, literally, that there was no abduction involved. I know how it sounds, but that doesn't change my reality. And I don't expect people to believe me or take it on face value, because if I hadn't seen it for myself I wouldn't believe a second hand account either.


Something like that it depends on who says it and how, whether I'd be inclined to roll my eyes. You, I take as sincere. I saw something once myself, that is beyond my ability to explain in any way. I dont talk about it, I respect you for being able to here.

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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Audie » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:22 am

Philip wrote:Are there some who have encounters with actual alien-piloted UFOs or are abducted by them? No! Then does that mean that these experiences are false? Yes and no. Some UFOs may be government experimental crafts or some type of natural phenomenon. But the rest of those truly experiencing a close up encounter with crafts or aliens - especially those seeing other beings or that are "abducted" - are likely encountering demons intent upon deception. So, while one's experience may have really happened, that in no way means that what they saw was of alien origin. Just the descriptions alone, of many abduction stories, sound very dark and demonic.

Plus, the physics involved with traveling across the vast distances from other star systems, and the immense speeds and vast lengths of time that would take, and the millions of deadly objects (also traveling at immense speeds), mean that alien visitation is a physical IPOSSIBILITY! But DEMONIC visitation, as we examine Scripture, is a very REAL possibility.



I kind of hate to link to a youtube, but this one is really good. Very mind boggling.
Maybe a bit of folding of dimensions is how impossible distances are covered.

If, in fact, anything does cover those distances. If God is real, of course, then He is simultaneously aware of everything despite the billions of light years distance..

So its not something that is theoretically impossible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4Gotl9vRGs

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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Philip » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:43 am

Audie, while there are a zillion theories as to what MIGHT be possible, they remain just that: unproven theories with no substantiation that they are true. While well-tested, KNOWN physics have an immense amount of data to back up what we DO know.

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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Audie » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:56 am

Philip wrote:Audie, while there are a zillion theories as to what MIGHT be possible, they remain just that: unproven theories with no substantiation that they are true. While well-tested, KNOWN physics have an immense amount of data to back up what we DO know.


I do understand how that works, including that no theory is ever going to be proved.

You might take a few minutes and actually watch that thing.

Whether you do or not, I think you would agree that the universe, the nature of reality is much more subtle and strange than we know, or may ever know.

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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Audie » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:57 am

Audie wrote:
Philip wrote:Audie, while there are a zillion theories as to what MIGHT be possible, they remain just that: unproven theories with no substantiation that they are true. While well-tested, KNOWN physics have an immense amount of data to back up what we DO know.


I do understand how that works, including that no theory is ever going to be proved and that its not a "theory' unless it has a body of consistent evidence.

You might take a few minutes and actually watch that thing.

Whether you do or not, I think you would agree that the universe, the nature of reality is much more subtle and strange than we know, or may ever know.

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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Philip » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:03 am

Audie, IF you are looking to theoretically explain how life came into existence on earth and thus you are looking to the stars for the source of it, then you need to understand you have only "kicked the can back down the cosmic road." NOTHING that exists or that comes into existence does not have a cause or a source of its beginning, being or substance. THE question is, how did a universe BEGIN where previously there was nothing in existence, nothing moving, no host for life - and then the universe suddenly began, with great precision and highly complex laws guiding its expansion - intricate and necessary laws that were in existence and were functioning within moments of the Big Bang's beginning. Time, multiple dimensions, matter, light, elements, enormous heat, all propelled at incredible speeds all began at once. And the laws that guided this remarkable and precise event (this was no random, chaotic series of things) - do you think laws of the universe created themselves - laws of great mathematical precision that were immediately in play behind the sudden, miraculous beginning of the universe? Universes don't come from nothing; laws of great complexity and precision guiding such a universe don't merely invent themselves.

Oh, but you might say, what about if there were a multiverse - or a series or string of universes? But you see, every series of ANY physical thing had to have a beginning to the linked chain that would follow it. And so you are right back to the very same problem - where did that FIRST theoretical universe come from. And so where did the mind-blowing mathematical precision that not only guided that supposed "first" universe, but that also necessarily would have orchestrated and created the designs for an eventual multiverse? Thus, the kicking of the can back down the cosmos. You must always expain what came first out of nothingness, and where the extraordinary laws guiding what could have only miraculously appeared came from. Aliens don't help your cause, they are a mere distraction (and, if real entities, that is their likely purpose).

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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Audie » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:23 am

Philip wrote:Audie, IF you are looking to theoretically explain how life came into existence on earth and thus you are looking to the stars for the source of it, then you need to understand you have only "kicked the can back down the cosmic road." NOTHING that exists or that comes into existence does not have a cause or a source of its beginning, being or substance. THE question is, how did a universe BEGIN where previously there was nothing in existence, nothing moving, no host for life - and then the universe suddenly began, with great precision and highly complex laws guiding its expansion - intricate and necessary laws that were in existence and were functioning within moments of the Big Bang's beginning. Time, multiple dimensions, matter, light, elements, enormous heat, all propelled at incredible speeds all began at once. And the laws that guided this remarkable and precise event (this was no random, chaotic series of things) - do you think laws of the universe created themselves - laws of great mathematical precision that were immediately in play behind the sudden, miraculous beginning of the universe? Universes don't come from nothing; laws of great complexity and precision guiding such a universe don't merely invent themselves.

Oh, but you might say, what about if there were a multiverse - or a series or string of universes? But you see, every series of ANY physical thing had to have a beginning to the linked chain that would follow it. And so you are right back to the very same problem - where did that FIRST theoretical universe come from. And so where did the mind-blowing mathematical precision that not only guided that supposed "first" universe, but that also necessarily would have orchestrated and created the designs for an eventual multiverse? Thus, the kicking of the can back down the cosmos. You must always expain what came first out of nothingness, and where the extraordinary laws guiding what could have only miraculously appeared came from. Aliens don't help your cause, they are a mere distraction (and, if real entities, that is their likely purpose).


Really, all I had to say was that I think aliens are possible, however unlikely they may be to show up.

I have no commentary on how the universe may have originated, other that to agree with tautologies, and to say that its too deep a mystery for any of us.

So there is no cause for aliens to help or hinder, unless they care to show up and exprain it all to me. :D


Where did you get the information about how it could only be miraculous?

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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Philip » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:07 am

Where did you get the information about how it could only be miraculous?


What else do you call the first of a vast series of necessarily interconnected, unfathomambly complex processes that have a certain beginning but no cause, as nothing existed prior to their beginnings, with even the individual parts being so astronomically and mathematically improbable to even precisely operate, much less to even exist to begin with, all empowered by laws of incredible precision and complexity, all in place and guiding from the very beginning? I don't think using the phrase "an awesome series of inexplicable, random events" is even close to being adequate - much less to explain it. In my thinking, "miraculous" is the perfect word for it - except that I think three is an Explanation for it all, and blind, random chance has nothing to do with it.

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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Audie » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:30 am

Philip wrote:
Where did you get the information about how it could only be miraculous?


What else do you call the first of a vast series of necessarily interconnected, unfathomambly complex processes that have a certain beginning but no cause, as nothing existed prior to their beginnings, with even the individual parts being so astronomically and mathematically improbable to even precisely operate, much less to even exist to begin with, all empowered by laws of incredible precision and complexity, all in place and guiding from the very beginning? I don't think using the phrase "an awesome series of inexplicable, random events" is even close to being adequate - much less to explain it. In my thinking, "miraculous" is the perfect word for it - except that I think three is an Explanation for it all, and blind, random chance has nothing to do with it.



I dont have something to call it. I think it would be presumptuous on the level of a cat announcing it knew what to call the Origin of Catfood.

The origin of the universe...I have no idea what to do with that mystery.




I dont use the phrase ""an awesome series of inexplicable, random events" so, sure, I dont think its helpful either.

I do notice people using the same basic wording so explain why evolution cant be true..
just sayin' :D

The word "random' gets over- and mis-used some, dont you think?

Im sure there is an explanation, but i also kind of think it is out somewhere beyond human understanding. Hope not, but, thats my guess.

Saying its "God" is a lot like the thing you said about saying its "aliens", it just moves the question along a notch, explaining nothing, and in this case making the mystery orders of magnitude bigger. That is how I see it, at least.

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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Byblos » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:34 am

Audie wrote:Saying its "God" is a lot like the thing you said about saying its "aliens", it just moves the question along a notch, explaining nothing, and in this case making the mystery orders of magnitude bigger. That is how I see it, at least.


Not the same at all. But it would mean we'd have to get into that dreaded P subject.
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Re: Young earth, old universe

Postby Audie » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:54 am

Speaking as Audie the Dreadnaught, I dont care to discuss philosophy, its not my thing. :D


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