Realistic Expectations for What The Shroud Can Tell Us

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Philip
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Realistic Expectations for What The Shroud Can Tell Us

Postby Philip » Thu May 11, 2017 5:31 pm

Wow, the intensity, detail and magnitude of the Shroud debate is incredible. But one way or another, what does it prove - what CAN be proved by it? And what CANNOT be?

Let's say it is proven, beyond a doubt, that this is the burial Shroud of Jesus of Nazareth - where does that leave us? Scripture is true? Jesus was God? Jesus was Resurrected from the dead? A person of unbelief will develop faith in Jesus as God, based upon this revealed fact (of the Shroud having covered Jesus)?

Let' say, we found an ancient manuscript from known alchemists, describing precisely how they created the Shroud - and we could utilize their written methods to replicate it almost perfectly. What would that prove about the historical Jesus - beyond the fact that we'd know the Turin artifact is fabricated (get it?, haha) and isn't from Jesus body? Would that prove Scripture is false? That Jesus was not God? That He wasn't resurrected? Would finding out the Shroud is a fraud damage your faith in Christ? Would it keep one from desiring to believe in Jesus as God? What would be the hard limits that finding out this to be a bogus relic entail?

I would say that anyone desiring to validate Christ OR dismissing Him to have been God in the flesh, bodily killed and later resurrected - or NOT, to have put far too much emphasis on a piece of cloth to establish exactly WHO Jesus is/was, and His significance to us. I wonder if some of us, on both sides of our opinions of the Shroud, of who Jesus actually was/is, have wildly unrealistic beliefs and motivations as to what this remarkable piece of cloth can actually tell us and others (those of faith and those unbelieving) - or NOT tell us.

At most, perhaps, IF the Shroud ever becomes proven to be from Jesus' burial - I would look at it as just one more (if amazing) piece of historical evidences, amongst the many others evidences, that Jesus was God, that He was prophesied to come, that precisely when and how He came to earth, was long before His birth into the world foretold. It's certainly not, by any means, the only potential evidence, as there are many others. He impossibly fulfilled so many difficult prophecies, so as to be absolutely impossible to credibly exist in any one person of the First Century.

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Re: Realistic Expectations for What The Shroud Can Tell Us

Postby RickD » Thu May 11, 2017 6:02 pm

Somewhere, Audie is reading this while banging her head against the wall, yelling, "SCIENCE DOES NOT DO PROOF!!!"
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
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Philip
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Re: Realistic Expectations for What The Shroud Can Tell Us

Postby Philip » Thu May 11, 2017 8:49 pm

Somewhere, Audie is reading this while banging her head against the wall, yelling, "SCIENCE DOES NOT DO PROOF!!!"


No, it cannot. It can only, at best, get us to a high degree of certainty - or uncertainty. Either way, it is incapable of going beyond a certain point. Meaning, from what I've seen with the shroud, is that that it's incapable of rendering a level of certainty people desire. Whether TRYING to prove or disprove, there are many with unrealistic expectations as to what can be concluded. It is in the realm of the miraculous, if authentic per Scripture. And, if one doesn't believe the miraculous things of God even exist, they'll never be satisfied as to what can be known about it, because they are already operating from an asumption that Jesus was never resurrected.

BTW, Audi only believes much of what she does because it is where her science views have left her stranded - to ponder semingly impossible things per some unknown metaphysical possibilities of the characteristics of whatever preexisted physical reality. So true, the inadequacy of what science is capable of revealing. That's also the issue with the shroud.

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Re: Realistic Expectations for What The Shroud Can Tell Us

Postby abelcainsbrother » Thu May 11, 2017 11:33 pm

To me the shroud is just more evidence for our faith in Jesus and it just enhances the already historical evidence we have for Jesus.So that we have both historical and physical evidence for Jesus.The bible does not teach our faith is blind,even if we walk by faith and not by sight our faith is not blind. But I think too many people prefer blind faith even when it goes against what the bible teaches us about faith.I get the feeling that it makes even Christians uncomfortable for some reason when we have strong evidence for our faith.I don't know why,but it seems to make people uncomfortable.

But to get to truth we must take the time to seek and find.We already know and understand that not all of our bible can be proven 100% but that does not mean we have no evidence,we do and more than people realize but it is not proof. But evidence is not just about physical evidence but even the unseen things like answered prayer or the storms God brought us through,etc.We have our experiences with God for evidence as well.We have testimonies and can look back and see how God has worked in our lives.It is just more evidence for our faith in Jesus to me.It all adds up.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Realistic Expectations for What The Shroud Can Tell Us

Postby neo-x » Fri May 12, 2017 3:17 am

Philip wrote:
Somewhere, Audie is reading this while banging her head against the wall, yelling, "SCIENCE DOES NOT DO PROOF!!!"


No, it cannot. It can only, at best, get us to a high degree of certainty - or uncertainty. Either way, it is incapable of going beyond a certain point.


Just a small thing but ""SCIENCE DOES NOT DO PROOF!!!"" is only a technicality based on what we have discovered so far. It is not because it can not understand physical reality. And TBH, everything beyond a certain point is incapable of something. The same way that math cannot produce a pizza, it's incapable...or Philosophy is incapable of measuring the speed of a photon through space.

These things are not weaknesses, they are limits. But it doesn't mean that within their own realms they fail. It's absurd to expect that they should hold up outside of their realm of inquiry. So to say then that they can only "get us to a high degree of certainty or uncertainty" is false except only in light of discovering new things, not because there is an inherent error in the scientific method.
For example, when your thermometer reports that you have a fever, you don't have a degree of certainty or uncertainty, that you do have a fever or you don't...you know for a fact that you have it.
People treat facts as relevant more when the facts tend to support their opinions. When the facts are against their opinions, they don't necessarily deny the facts, but they say the facts are less relevant or insignificant. This is ofcourse because believing things that make you feel comfortable, takes a priority. And I think that should not be the case if one is after truth.

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Re: Realistic Expectations for What The Shroud Can Tell Us

Postby DBowling » Fri May 12, 2017 4:23 am

I am interested in the Shroud as potential extrascriptural historical support for the Scriptural record regarding Jesus of Nazareth.

The Shroud is either the burial cloth of Jesus or it isn't.
If it is potentially the authentic burial cloth of Jesus, then the Shroud is something of interest to me.
If it is not authentic, then as fascinating as the Shroud is, I really have no interest in it.

Two non-Christian STURP members and former sceptics, Schwortz and Rogers, concluded that the Shroud probably wrapped the body of Jesus of Nazareth. And after looking at the evidence I have come to a similar conclusion.
The two biggest issues for me were dating the Shroud to the first century and historically tracking the path of the Shroud from Jerusalem to Turin.

I think the most that I can assert is the evidence indicates that the Shroud probably wrapped the body of the historical Jesus of Nazareth.
If at some time in the future the Shroud is demonstrated to be of Medieval origin, then my opinion will change and my interest in the Shroud as a potential historical artifact related to Jesus will disappear.

As far as the image itself goes. I am sceptical that we will ever discover how the image was formed.
My personal opinion is that the image was formed by a nonreplicatable set of circumstances.
I could be wrong, and I do think continued studies on how the image was formed are worthwhile.

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Re: Realistic Expectations for What The Shroud Can Tell Us

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon May 15, 2017 5:51 am

At the most, right now, all science can show us is the various process that DIDN'T put the image there and perhaps some that COULD have with TODAY's technology.
Some process have come very close to the majority of the characteristics BUT none of them could have been used by some medieval artist.

In the end, science is about facts and numbers, what can be replicated, observed, falsified and predicted and right now NOTHING that we know can do those things and create the image on the shroud so, science simply states " Don't know".

It's up to the individual to decide for themselves.

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Re: Realistic Expectations for What The Shroud Can Tell Us

Postby Philip » Mon May 15, 2017 8:22 am

But when you apply modern forensics techniques, top experts in relevant field relentlessly studying it, the most modern of technologies - and you STILL can't replicate it as it exists or figure out how it was created, while knowing the range of tools available to the ancients, with not ONE other example of any other ancient artifact remotely like it, and knowing it was, many centuries before our scientific age, considered the burial garment of Christ - that's got to make one consider that it could very likely be the Shroud of the Resurrected Christ - with the image being produced in that miraculous moment. So, what is left that isn't miraculous - that could have been man-made? The answer from science is, "we don't have a clue!"

The image, unbelievably thin, showing three-dimensional spaciality, perfectly anatomically and historically accurate, produced NOT as a faker would have done - an image that looks like a man UP CLOSE, designed to fool an ancient audience, but with a NEGATIVE image not apparent until far from it - and not fully appreciated until photographed and producing a positive - add all that up and it makes no sense for a counterfeiter to do, much less be ABLE to do. It is so remarkable that we now see the ultimate skeptics' logic: "The counterfeiter didn't know what he was doing, but he just got lucky!" That's a statement of desperation designed to dismiss it. The level of details as they exist not only wouldn't have been possible, it wouldn't have at all been necessary to fool peasants of medieval or earlier times. In fact, an ancient man wouldn't have known what he was seeing - other than what he would have been told about it. As, up close, it is unremarkable - meaning that even IF carefully and spectacularly planned, it would have been not nearly as effective as per how an artist would have done it with some paint mixture - or painted blood, etc. - to render a clearly discernible figure UP CLOSE. If designed to fool up close, it would have clear details up close - but it doesn't! Which puts us right back to the unintentional brilliance designed by dumb luck - which is preposterous.

The experts with the best technology have been stumped by an ancient artifact long asserted to be of Christ - the only one like it - that is exactly what I would expect of something resulting from the actions of God: Incredibly and inexplicable!

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Re: Realistic Expectations for What The Shroud Can Tell Us

Postby Kurieuo » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:50 pm

Whatever one believes of the shroud, whichever side they fall down on, that person must ultimately believe in something quite extraordinary. And, I think it's ultimately these extraordinary beliefs that both sides try to frame and attack in the other.
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Re: Realistic Expectations for What The Shroud Can Tell Us

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:40 am

What the shroud tells us is this:
A man was wrapped in that shroud.
That man suffered numerous wounds, some of them inline with the ancient and common practice of crucifixion.
An event of some sort happened and the image of that man was somehow embedded in the cloth and image that can only be seen clearly as a "negative"
We do NOT know what that event was and do NOT know how the image has gotten there.

These are actually the only facts we know about the shroud that are indisputable.

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Re: Realistic Expectations for What The Shroud Can Tell Us

Postby Kurieuo » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:30 pm

I believe we do know how the image got there, and I see it is a justified conclusion especially within the context of the NT and Apostolic beliefs on Jesus. But, not all will agree. So long as one has done a bit of due dilligence investigating, then that is about as much as we can hope for someone no matter what position they take. Someone can disagree with me that we do know just like someone might a physical resurrection of Jesus because such is miraculous and dead people apparantly don't rise from the dead. This doesn't mean we don't know, or I don't know, but rather if I'm wrong in my knowledge then it will be usurped as new facts came available and warrant believing otherwise. Such is the nature of knowledge itself in anything that is claimed to be known.

Fact is, with or without the shroud, a physical resurrection happened, such too I believe explains certain historical facts upon which most learned scholars agree -- 1) Jesus died by crucifixion; 2) soon afterwards, his followers had real experiences that they thought were actual appearances of the risen Jesus; 3) that their lives were transformed as a result, even to the point of being willing to die specifically for their faith in the resurrection message; 4) that these things were taught very early, soon after the crucifixion; 5) that James, Jesus’ unbelieving brother, became a Christian due to his own experience that he thought was the resurrected Christ; and 6) that the Christian persecutor Paul (formerly Saul of Tarsus) also became a believer after a similar experience.

So then, if one believes in the physical resurrection, then it's really not hard to think the shroud might contain something miraculous, like a radiation burnt image upon it. An image and shroud with properties that cannot be explained to this day in any other way. The only thorn is the radiocarbon dating, which is highly suspect and questionable. There are many reasons why such a dating method are not always reliable, and in this instance the reason many put forward for the wrong date is a contaminated sample which came back with three different dates of 130 years difference. All-in-all, I see the dating as questionable and time will tell, even if we must wait until death to see the real truth and have our knowledge fully justified more than merely an acceptable warranted belief.

Note, a physical resurrection of Jesus as I see it has the highest explanitory power, and only our wooden anti-miraclist thinkers will not allow any hearing of such. It is safe to say it is only their philosophy and worldview that prevents them from allowing such an explanation on their table of possible beliefs. To such, anything is better than a dead man coming back to life. Yet, if a physical resurrection is allowed onto the table, then it best explains many facts historians agree upon. So the resurrection stands on its own without any shroud. Yet, if one accepts the resurrection, then an explanation that the image on the shroud was some explosive radiation from Jesus' body at resurrection, such is certainly on the table and within the realm of possibility for us.
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Re: Realistic Expectations for What The Shroud Can Tell Us

Postby Philip » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:55 am

[url]So then, if one believes in the physical resurrection, then it's really not hard to think the shroud might contain something miraculous, like a radiation burnt image upon it.[/url]

That is why I refuse to debate the Shroud with unbelievers. If I didn't believe in a God of miracles, then I'd simply dismiss it. One will never convince most who don't at least have belief in a God Who is capable of the miraculous (upon which our mere existence depends), concerning an artifact that was created by a process that was miraculous. As their minds are typically self-closed to such a possibility. Heck, even I, a believer, didn't originally believe the Shroud to be authentic per the Resurrection. Mostly, that was because I THOUGHT I knew the facts.


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