"Tree" or "Web" of Life? A Tale of Red Wolf "Species"

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Kurieuo
Honored Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia

"Tree" or "Web" of Life? A Tale of Red Wolf "Species"

Post by Kurieuo »

So I've been doing some digging into "dog" origins, in order to "pinpoint" what I might call a unique creation under a Progressive Creation scenario. What I'd want is obviously the "prototype" i.e., the first kind of a particular line that results in different species and sub-species, perhaps at a genus level.

Obviously, a next-to impossible task. I didn't think realistically I'd find something, but at least I might further my own knowledge on dogs, wolves and the like in such an endeavour. And we have so much variety today of dogs, that I saw it as an interesting exercise to do in and of itself.

At first, I thought I might be able to walk away declaring without any real certainty some prototypical Canis lupus species, of which "gray wolf" and "dogs" evolved and are subspecies of. Thing is Canis lupus species can also interbreed with "species" in the greater Canis genus. For example, the gray wolf and red coyote which belongs to Canis latrans. Some even say the Canis lupus and Canis latrans species should be joined into one complex.

Of the gray wolf itself, Wikipedia references that,
  • "genomic studies indicate that nearly all North American gray wolf populations possess some degree of admixture with coyotes following a geographic cline, with the lowest levels occurring in Alaska, but the highest in Ontario and Quebec as well as Atlantic Canada.
This then moves the bar back to perhaps some "Canis" prototype which we might embrace as the first "prototype" or "kind" (to borrow a term familiar with creationists) in history.

The question in the back of my mind, is, even if a reasonable prototype was identifiable, how would we know it was really the first of its kind? We'd need to be able to map out its genome, and the genome of other animals, in order to truly declare it to be the first special creation because there's no mix of anything else -- it's a pure blood. This just isn't possible without direct access to such.

Then it occurred to me that I'm going about it wrong, since I'm working within an evolutionary paradigm NOT the Progressive Creation paradigm I believe in where God can mix and match genomic sequences, edit and add to such, when He "codes" and forms a new special creation. This would mean, there perhaps would never be a "pure blood" found, indeed it'd be next to impossible to identify what is a special creation.

Yet, there is more to this, which also poses some significant problems for evolutionary thought. The concept of "species", while helpful to communicate about this and that particular form of life, grouping animals neatly into groups of complexes, ought to be thwart with problems if special creation is true too. While we might identify relationships via admixtures of similar kinds of life mixing, and since time only goes forward be able provide some kind of timeline according to fossils and the like -- any neat tree of life when matched to reality just shouldn't be possible.

It also dawned on me, throughout my reading, just the headache evolutionary scientists have in trying to define and map out species. And with dogs, that is within Canis, we have a lot of data to work with. So then, if it were possible for me to identify a prototypical "first kind" through an evolutionary tree of life being used as a roadmap, it turns out things are a mess and there is no agreement even as to whether different species should be grouped together, separated or what-have-you.

Somewhere in the back of my mind I was sensing the "evolutionary tree" doesn't add up to the reality of what I was seeing inside the Canis genus. The mess of "the leaves" (species and sub-species/breeds) within the Canis genus, actually reveals a different story. All the inter-breeding and shared genetics of "species" within don't really point to a tree of life at all, but rather a webbed network of life. What do I mean?

Well, rather than resembling a tree, the picture with lifeforms would appear to branch (mix) sideways, they might (mix) branch backwards, and they might undergo morphological changes in and of themselves (forward) -- however what a particular creature ends up being more of a node in a web of life. The neat and tidy and often-accepted evolutionary tree of life, as it turns out is too simple a map. And I came across an article which helped me to arrive at this conclusion. One to do with red wolves.

Scientific studies into the the genome of "red wolves" show they're actually a "grey wolf" and "coyote" hybrid. A criterion for conservation, and protecting a species in North Carolina, is that they must have their own unique genomic sequence. There's been a lot of going back and forward, millions of dollars spent, to protect what is believed to be its own "species", so the findings that red wolves are actually a hybrid throw a spanner into the cogs. Red wolves are protected from hunters, yet red coyotes not so. Many consider such to be pest, and want to hunt and eradicate them. Coyotes are actually also threatening "red wolf" populations and conservationists were trying to bring them under control through infertility methods. However, it is said that someone hunting red coyotes from a distance, such would be near indistinguishable from red wolves. So hunting coyotes would inevitably result in the red wolves being killed driving them into extinction. Conservationists therefore fought to ban hunting of coyotes in order the better manage protecting red wolf populations.

So this is all interesting in itself, at least I think so. Throughout all these "red wolf" scientific studies and events that have transpired, it's kind of shaken up evolutionary ideas and what is defined as species in the evolutionary "tree of life." Such that it just isn't a true representation of what we see, and what happens out in nature which is much more messy.

To quote from an article, What's a Species, Anyway?:
  • To some biologists, the red wolf demonstrates how wrongheaded it is for the Fish and Wildlife Service to organize its conservation efforts around species in the first place, given how fuzzy the concept has proven. “I think it’s nonsensical for us to argue conservation-management practices on the basis of genomes that haven’t been impacted by genes from other species,” said Michael Arnold, an evolutionary geneticist at the University of Georgia. “If we do that ... then there won’t be anything conserved.”
Forget trying to find a prototype "species" or "kind", it seems nothing today is a pure "species". Indeed, even in the past nothing would be found to be pure simply due to how nature works in reality. Rather, genes of all extant life, even life at every stage, are quite a mix-up, including it is believed our own human species. The article continues:
  • Instead, Arnold suggested a whole new paradigm for the natural world: not a “tree of life,” with its ever-multiplying and distinct branches, but a “web of life,” with species continually diverging and recombining over time —a truer picture of what actually happens in nature. He proposed that rather than spending conservation money to preserve what we have defined as a species, the U.S. government should buy up tracts of land and let natural evolutionary processes—including hybridization—run their course.
So then, "species" seems to be what us humans like doing most -- trying to put things neatly into boxes with a nice label. Yet, in reality, life is much more messy. What we have in reality isn't so much a "tree of life" like we see in a textbook, but rather a "web of life". As for what is/isn't a true species, such could be more a human fiction than born out in reality:
  • Scientists had hoped that DNA testing would yield clear definitions for animal species. Instead, it’s revealed just how impossible such precise determinations are. And yet few would suggest jettisoning the concept of a species altogether: It is, as E.O. Wilson wrote, too fundamental to human ideas of nature. The difference would be recognizing that a species is a human construction rather than a biological reality—a shift in perspective that would, if anything, give conservationists more flexibility to pursue their goals. “The Endangered Species Act is tied to typology, where it should be more oriented toward process,” Wayne said.

    In this view, the red wolf need not be a paragon of genetic purity in order to deserve protection; it need only fill a niche in its ecosystem that no other animal does. Jenks echoed this point as well. “It should be about what an animal does in its habitat, and preserving that habitat, that ecology,” she said.
    (https://newrepublic.com/article/124453/ ... es-anyways)
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
User avatar
patrick
Established Member
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:59 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Re: "Tree" or "Web" of Life? A Tale of Red Wolf "Species"

Post by patrick »

Kurieuo wrote:Yet, there is more to this, which also poses some significant problems for evolutionary thought. The concept of "species", while helpful to communicate about this and that particular form of life, grouping animals neatly into groups of complexes, ought to be thwart with problems if special creation is true too. While we might identify relationships via admixtures of similar kinds of life mixing, and since time only goes forward be able provide some kind of timeline according to fossils and the like -- any neat tree of life when matched to reality just shouldn't be possible.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here, but I would think there'd only be a problem for evolutionary thought if an animal appeared to be a combination of two animals that shouldn't have been able to breed together. I do think though that it'd be interesting to see whether a web model could make the matter of speciation clearer. The idea behind the tree model seems to be that, beyond a small degree of variance, animals of one type can't mix with animals of another, so you basically always see new species appearing out of a single branch. But as the red wolf issue shows, this model seems to underestimate just how much variance can exist before a viable species can't be born out of separate species. And perhaps the boundaries of what constitute a species are too sharply defined in the tree model, given how little we really know.
All the inter-breeding and shared genetics of "species" within don't really point to a tree of life at all, but rather a webbed network of life. What do I mean?

Well, rather than resembling a tree, the picture with lifeforms would appear to branch (mix) sideways, they might (mix) branch backwards, and they might undergo morphological changes in and of themselves (forward) -- however what a particular creature ends up being more of a node in a web of life. The neat and tidy and often-accepted evolutionary tree of life, as it turns out is too simple a map.
Interesting stuff, though I'm a bit confused about the significance of branching both sideways and backwards though. Are you suggesting species turn out to be a mix of animals that only exist later in time?
thatkidakayoungguy
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1414
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:44 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male

Re: "Tree" or "Web" of Life? A Tale of Red Wolf "Species"

Post by thatkidakayoungguy »

patrick wrote: Interesting stuff, though I'm a bit confused about the significance of branching both sideways and backwards though. Are you suggesting species turn out to be a mix of animals that only exist later in time?
This: http://www.livescience.com/783-human-ch ... rbred.html
Not that I agree with it, but it supports the web of life.
User avatar
Philip
Site Owner
Posts: 9405
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: "Tree" or "Web" of Life? A Tale of Red Wolf "Species"

Post by Philip »

So then, "species" seems to be what us humans like doing most -- trying to put things neatly into boxes with a nice label.
In a nutshell, there is no purity of species or humans. Humans - we're all mutts. The way genetics work, we'd only know when there are shared genetic similarities, but we wouldn't know if any hybrid is from a long chain of hybrids leading back to some original form - especially when whatever blend of genetic markers were in the original.

As far as protections - genetic variability is a good thing. Too close genetics create potential defects. But also good is physical / aesthetic diversity - as it creats interesting contrasts in various animals. So, if there is a particular physical type that is unique, I can see the mere physical differences would be of reason to protect them. Genetics isn't like neat categories of anything. Once in awhile, I see these amusing photos of people who have a "twin" somewhere that they didn't know about. Sometimes, these doppelgangers are unbelievably similar in appearance. But genetically, their geographic ancestry can be very different. And likewise, you find very white people with African genetics, and vice versa. How can that be? Like K said, categorization based upon mere physical differences can be done. But, genetically - not so easily.

But what I wonder most about genetic studies - especially when people try to guess at how long ago it was when a certain line of humans, or whatever animals, branched off - I really wonder how accurate such could be? How true is it that hippos are closely related to whales? y:-?
hughfarey
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 752
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:58 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution

Re: "Tree" or "Web" of Life? A Tale of Red Wolf "Species"

Post by hughfarey »

The term "species" is a human construct to help in the understanding the relationships between organisms, and so obviously has blurred edges. There are many species which are wholly reproductively distinct, but the nature of evolution is such that we wouldn't expect that invariably to be the case. It takes thousands of generations for species sufficiently to differentiate genetically so that that cannot interbreed, although often they adopt a non-interbreeding behaviour, at least in the wild. Human experiments between closely related groups of animals - sheep/goat, horse/donkey, cow/yak, and so on - have caught evolution in mid-stride, so to speak, and the discussion about dogs is something very similar. The rapid spreading of similar animals around the world, such as we see in humans and their domesticated animals, help to muddy the waters of environmental disassociation still further.

However, it is not sensible to take these observations to extremes. Just because a dog can mate with a wolf does not mean it can mate with a rabbit or a horse, and the term species continues to be useful, as long as proper cognisance is made of its limits.

As for 'closeness' of relationships, that depends what you mean by close. If you and I are only distantly related - probably 50th cousins or so - then we are even more distantly related to a chimpanzee - about 300th cousins - and perhaps 30 millionth cousins to a whale. I think it is true to say that whales and hippos are more closely related to each other than either is to anything else, but any particular whale is probably a several millionth cousin to any particular hippo.
User avatar
Kurieuo
Honored Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: "Tree" or "Web" of Life? A Tale of Red Wolf "Species"

Post by Kurieuo »

I'm not ignoring your post Patrick, I'm just currently pondering over some thoughts before responding.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: "Tree" or "Web" of Life? A Tale of Red Wolf "Species"

Post by RickD »

hughfarey wrote:
As for 'closeness' of relationships, that depends what you mean by close. If you and I are only distantly related - probably 50th cousins or so - then we are even more distantly related to a chimpanzee - about 300th cousins - and perhaps 30 millionth cousins to a whale. I think it is true to say that whales and hippos are more closely related to each other than either is to anything else, but any particular whale is probably a several millionth cousin to any particular hippo.
Hugh,

It's finally dawned on me as to why you are posting as you are...

You are related to monkeys.
:lol:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
User avatar
Kurieuo
Honored Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: "Tree" or "Web" of Life? A Tale of Red Wolf "Species"

Post by Kurieuo »

RickD wrote:
hughfarey wrote:
As for 'closeness' of relationships, that depends what you mean by close. If you and I are only distantly related - probably 50th cousins or so - then we are even more distantly related to a chimpanzee - about 300th cousins - and perhaps 30 millionth cousins to a whale. I think it is true to say that whales and hippos are more closely related to each other than either is to anything else, but any particular whale is probably a several millionth cousin to any particular hippo.
Hugh,

It's finally dawned on me as to why you are posting as you are...

You are related to monkeys.
:lol:
Monkey? His great, great, ..., momma was a whale who had hippos of cousins! :P
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
hughfarey
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 752
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:58 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution

Re: "Tree" or "Web" of Life? A Tale of Red Wolf "Species"

Post by hughfarey »

I am indeed related to monkeys, as are you, and proud to be so. However, although I am also related to whales and hippos, I cannot boast that any of my ancestors was either. Whales, hippos, you and I can claim that we all share a great-great-great... momma in a rather small ratty looking lady living about 150 million years ago.
Post Reply