Does God Tinker with the Universe?

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Philip
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Does God Tinker with the Universe?

Postby Philip » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:24 am

The whole idea of God tinkering suggests that He might have created one thing, later decided to change it, or begin anew, or whatever - as if He is experimenting, or needs to - is ridiculous! We have to remember that such things are being speculated upon per how a MAN thinks and what he can know and create, and how we learn from previous things we've done, so as to make our subsequent creations better, more efficient, more productive, all of that. The problem with all of that is that God knows ALL outcomes and ALL specifics for EVERYTHING He will EVER create. There is no new knowledge to be had for God. He can not be surprised, nor can He surprise Himself. And all that God is is unchangeable. These are why HE is the Great "I Am."

But as God knows all future things, outcomes and specifics, this means that He cannot create a thing that He doesn't know every characteristic, function, parameter, and action/interactions of. This means He cannot create something without purpose, because He knows exactly what it will look like, be capable of, and will do. So, any supposed tinkering - as perceived from our end - is purposeful and intentional from His end. And He has specific purposes and creations designed for specific periods of time. If God doesn't want something, He doesn't make it possible - either through His design or supernaturally (that is, interrupting or preventing some capability of one of His creatures that would otherwise be able to enact actions that He would otherwise allow. This is seen over and over in Scripture where He allows or disallows certain things, or He prevents them - things that otherwise would be possible in how He originally designed them. This often works out with the sinful intentions of man, and how He intervenes in the moment. But we must realize that He's always know where, when and how He'd do a thing differently, or interrupt a particular flow of how His creatures will be allowed to act. So, both God's "autopilot" of how He designed things to typically act, and His "interruptions" are all the same TO HIM. So, this idea of God's tinkering - that's a man's thinking.

God is spirit. He is not physical, though He has taken on the physical (in Jesus). So, one might say that the Spiritual (God) has "tinkered" in His creations in the physical realm. But God cannot create ANYTHING that is not intentional. As knowing all things, He knows all outcomes. So if He did not intend a certain thing or outcome, He would not have made it possible to begin with. That is how the all-knowingness of God works. The Spiritual Being that is God spoke the physical into existence and controls it. But what people don't seem to realize is that this control of God's is not some random tinkering, but is a result of what He created, where He placed it, in time and place, and precisely how other creations He specifically placed will interact together. All such things have always been known to God, and so the supposed "tinkering" began and have always existed in His mind, made eventually possible (always CERTAIN from God's standpoint), from the very moment they came into existence.

Many of those reacting against some kind of "tinkering" of God in His Creation seem to think that He has created things with random possibilities which will drive unknown future outcomes that are not under His direct control. But from God's standpoint, there can be NOTHING random or surprising - as He can have ONLY certainty about all He creates and all He will EVER do, say or create. So, as He creates something and knows all of it's specific future abilities, actions and parameters - all of which are only made possible by what He created, their abilities and proximities He gives them, how they play out are necessarily under His control. And, amazingly, at least to us, is that God giving us free will has absolutely nothing to do with what He allows us to do with it. And we also don't have unlimited choices or abilities to play out our free will. Again, He knows exactly where and how He will control - not our desires, actions and intentions - but where and if they match up with His desires for all outcomes. God is in perfect control of His creation and His creatures. This is why He knows exactly how and when the present world and universe will end.

So, the idea of tinkering, would seem to be one of experimenting. But God doesn't need to experiment!

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Re: Does God Tinker with the Universe?

Postby Stu » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:22 am

God tinkers with humans. So I see no reason He would not tinker with the universe. A rogue asteroid heading for earth for instance could be redirected by God. No where in the Bible does it say that God is a hands off God. On the contrary he tinkers on a large scale with the earth.
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Re: Does God Tinker with the Universe?

Postby DBowling » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:33 am

Stu wrote:No where in the Bible does it say that God is a hands off God. On the contrary he tinkers on a large scale with the earth.

:clap:

God's 'tinkering' is not experimentation.
God's 'tinkering' is actively guiding the universe according to his sovereign plan.

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Re: Does God Tinker with the Universe?

Postby Philip » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:24 am

Stu: God tinkers with humans. So I see no reason He would not tinker with the universe.


Of course, God can do things however He wants to, as HE is both the Cause of things and their Rule Maker.

Stu: A rogue asteroid heading for earth for instance could be redirected by God. No where in the Bible does it say that God is a hands off God.


Actually, the Bible indicates that God is always "hands on," concerning all He has created. But part of His hand's on is allowing things to function as they were designed to, and the related actions of men - as long as the actions of man suit His purposes and desires. So, He can allow and not allow. He can and does prevent. He does all the things that we would if we controlled all the parameters, knew all things, had all of His Wisdom and Holy character. But we don't and He does.

Does it matter if God's control is only in how He made things, or if He also intervenes in situations that would be different if they were allowed to do all that they otherwise were designed capable of? Tinkering, if you will, was when God, Who is all Spirit, began to build the physical realm.

Back to the "rogue" asteroid. HOW is it rogue? Did God not know, as He designed the materials that make up that asteroid, and its precise path throughout its existence? Of course! Did He not know that one day it would threaten the earth? Absolutely! So, it's very creation WAS the control by God. If it had been made differently, or allowed to come into existence at a different time, there would be no such threat. Do we not see that? This is how God's all-knowingness works! However, His purpose may well have been the fact that it one day produces such a threat, so that He would perhaps speak to it so as to protect, also per His purposes. Either way, and all-powerful God can intervene - or not - per whatever outcome He so desires. So exactly WHEN or WHERE He exerts His micromanaging, is actually irrelevant. He could have built the outcomes into His "auto-pilot" design, or maybe He enjoys getting "hands-on," in the moment. He certainly can do both - it's a silly argument. But what He cannot do is create something that He doesn't know all future things about, or that can subvert His will - as the Creator controls His creations - HOWEVER He so desires to. To God, their is NOTHING truly random - at least if we define "random" as being unpredictable (to Him).


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