Transitional / intermediate

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
crochet1949
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1446
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby crochet1949 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:47 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
crochet1949 wrote:Oh, yes, I Am familiar with the Gap Theory of creation.

Why would there Need to be a Pre-Adamic race of beings. Because some of us don't believe there Was one. Because -- that means that people were dying. According to Genesis 1 or 2 -- one of the penalties for Adam and Eve eating the fruit -- they were to die instead of living Forever as the original plan had been. So -- apparently everyone who would have been around Before that would still be alive at that time. But Genesis tells specifically how Adam was formed and then Eve. So apparently there were No other people before then.

Slightly different subject -- but -- along the same lines. Your thoughts concerning the virgin birth of Jesus.

How about the Tower of Babel / God's creating the languages and thus separating the people from the large population to gravitate to smaller groups -- the people were Forced to find others of the same language to be able to communicate and thus spread out into new land. Thus -- the various groups of people would inbreed and various cultures came into being -- various physical features became more pronounced over time. Thus, the various Indian groups, etc. I don't know about the time line, but your comments are interesting.


Yes this is true in this world before Adam and Eve sinned there was no death,but when they sinned death passed to all men. You know the former world perished completely which is why the earth is in a without form and void state.It is uninhabitable until God gets done and rests on the seventh day. The tower of babel effected this world. It does not matter if there was death in the former world with a pre-Adamic race in it,but there were many kinds of life as the fossils show. The no death before Adam thing is a strawman when it comes to Gap Creationism. Also reading bible commentaries from Gap Creationists is no different than somebody going to AIG or young earth creation science ministries and going by what they teach. This is why I said accepting the Gap Theory does not effect anything else in the bible,because it is all after the gap between the former world and this world we live in since Adam and Eve. The bible is a book of redemption and God restoring what was lost until he is finally finished.



We Do have some evidence of a 'previous' world , but only in the spiritual realm. Because there Was a war in heaven -- 1/3 of the angels rebelled along with Lucifer and were thrown down here to earth. That was when Lucifer became satan / serpent/the great deceiver. He approached Eve about the fruit -- after God had given just One command - Don't eat the fruit of that one tree (knowledge of good and evil) -- She went ahead and ate some Anyway as did Adam.

Isn't it just as possible that That was the reason for earth being destroyed? Because in Heaven -- God had created the spiritual world -- the various kinds of angels -- Lucifer was created at the most beautiful of all -- He was God's right hand man so to speak. But he wasn't satisfied with that -- Lucifer wanted it All. He couldn't have it and he and his followers were thrown out.

And we Are told that mankind was created 'just a little lower than the angels'.

"The no death before Adam is a strawman when it comes to Gap Creationism' -- Maybe that's one reason I wouldn't agree with Gap Creationism -- because Genesis tells us that there was No Death before Adam. The 'wages' of their sinning was physical death to all of us -- which indicates that they Would have lived forever -- No death. But they Did eventually die. And, Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden and barred from the tree of life -- because IF they got to That -- they Would live forever in their sinful state of being. So -- God Did provide a means for sinfulness to be Forgiven. The cross.

And, yes, the Bible IS the book of redemption -- so that we Can have the opportunity to experience life in heaven on earth -- with God -- no more pain, suffering, etc. but Only because we've accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Savior.

And, yes, Something produced those fossils. And there are those who attribute That to the world-wide, global flood. And that happened a bit later in Genesis. And That resulted in the world being 'turned upside down, inside out' literally.

User avatar
abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4234
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby abelcainsbrother » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:21 am

crochet1949 wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
crochet1949 wrote:Oh, yes, I Am familiar with the Gap Theory of creation.

Why would there Need to be a Pre-Adamic race of beings. Because some of us don't believe there Was one. Because -- that means that people were dying. According to Genesis 1 or 2 -- one of the penalties for Adam and Eve eating the fruit -- they were to die instead of living Forever as the original plan had been. So -- apparently everyone who would have been around Before that would still be alive at that time. But Genesis tells specifically how Adam was formed and then Eve. So apparently there were No other people before then.

Slightly different subject -- but -- along the same lines. Your thoughts concerning the virgin birth of Jesus.

How about the Tower of Babel / God's creating the languages and thus separating the people from the large population to gravitate to smaller groups -- the people were Forced to find others of the same language to be able to communicate and thus spread out into new land. Thus -- the various groups of people would inbreed and various cultures came into being -- various physical features became more pronounced over time. Thus, the various Indian groups, etc. I don't know about the time line, but your comments are interesting.


Yes this is true in this world before Adam and Eve sinned there was no death,but when they sinned death passed to all men. You know the former world perished completely which is why the earth is in a without form and void state.It is uninhabitable until God gets done and rests on the seventh day. The tower of babel effected this world. It does not matter if there was death in the former world with a pre-Adamic race in it,but there were many kinds of life as the fossils show. The no death before Adam thing is a strawman when it comes to Gap Creationism. Also reading bible commentaries from Gap Creationists is no different than somebody going to AIG or young earth creation science ministries and going by what they teach. This is why I said accepting the Gap Theory does not effect anything else in the bible,because it is all after the gap between the former world and this world we live in since Adam and Eve. The bible is a book of redemption and God restoring what was lost until he is finally finished.



We Do have some evidence of a 'previous' world , but only in the spiritual realm. Because there Was a war in heaven -- 1/3 of the angels rebelled along with Lucifer and were thrown down here to earth. That was when Lucifer became satan / serpent/the great deceiver. He approached Eve about the fruit -- after God had given just One command - Don't eat the fruit of that one tree (knowledge of good and evil) -- She went ahead and ate some Anyway as did Adam.

Isn't it just as possible that That was the reason for earth being destroyed? Because in Heaven -- God had created the spiritual world -- the various kinds of angels -- Lucifer was created at the most beautiful of all -- He was God's right hand man so to speak. But he wasn't satisfied with that -- Lucifer wanted it All. He couldn't have it and he and his followers were thrown out.

And we Are told that mankind was created 'just a little lower than the angels'.

"The no death before Adam is a strawman when it comes to Gap Creationism' -- Maybe that's one reason I wouldn't agree with Gap Creationism -- because Genesis tells us that there was No Death before Adam. The 'wages' of their sinning was physical death to all of us -- which indicates that they Would have lived forever -- No death. But they Did eventually die. And, Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden and barred from the tree of life -- because IF they got to That -- they Would live forever in their sinful state of being. So -- God Did provide a means for sinfulness to be Forgiven. The cross.

And, yes, the Bible IS the book of redemption -- so that we Can have the opportunity to experience life in heaven on earth -- with God -- no more pain, suffering, etc. but Only because we've accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Savior.

And, yes, Something produced those fossils. And there are those who attribute That to the world-wide, global flood. And that happened a bit later in Genesis. And That resulted in the world being 'turned upside down, inside out' literally.


I'll admit when it comes to the Gap Theory we do have to be careful about speculating about the former world and I think that Gap Theorists do a good job of not speculating once you put all of the scriptures together that give us clues we can see applied to the former world. There are reasons to believe in the former world God tested angels and Lucifer and a third of the angels rebelled and in this world he is testing man. There are also reasons to believe by scripture that the former world was on this earth too until it perished and fossils are evidence of the kinds of life that lived in the former world.

This to me is like a revelation from God confirmed by the evidence of the nature he created confirming God's word true while offering a better theory based on the evidence than the theory of evolution. This is true because all Charles Darwin did was come up with a way to blend evolution into the evidence that had already been discovered by Geologists who were Christians in the 1700's before evolution became a scientific theory. One bible interpretation that became was very popular was Gap Creationism that had been revived based on the evidence discovered and how it fit the evidence. These men did not abandon their faith if the evidence did not match up with their biblical understanding,instead they searched believing that their interpretation or understanding could be wrong. They believed God's creation aught to reflect what his word says when we have the correct understanding. They were well aware of the scientific findings of Galileo and how his findings clashed with the Catholic interpretation of scripture which taught that the planets did not move yet the evidence showed otherwise and it was their interpretation that was wrong. These men were well aware of it.There are books written that document the history of creationism.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

crochet1949
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1446
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby crochet1949 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:14 am

The part about God testing angels and Lucifer and a third of them rebelled. The testing -- That I'm going to look into farther.

I've sort of thought that Gap Creationism was synonymous with Theistic Evolution. But coming from different slant. Trying to fit God into the development of the world simply to pacify the religious world while retaining scientific authority.

User avatar
abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4234
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby abelcainsbrother » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:32 am

crochet1949 wrote:The part about God testing angels and Lucifer and a third of them rebelled. The testing -- That I'm going to look into farther.

I've sort of thought that Gap Creationism was synonymous with Theistic Evolution. But coming from different slant. Trying to fit God into the development of the world simply to pacify the religious world while retaining scientific authority.


This is a common misunderstanding about Gap creationism that it is based on evolution but its not true. I have never known of any Gap creationist who accepts evolution in history and even today. I don't see how it could be done because a person would have to believe there was evolution in both worlds.YEC ministries tend to lump all old earth creation interpretations together with evolution because they don't know about them and the differences.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

hughfarey
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:58 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby hughfarey » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:54 pm

crochet1949 wrote:I've sort of thought that Gap Creationism was synonymous with Theistic Evolution. But coming from different slant. Trying to fit God into the development of the world simply to pacify the religious world while retaining scientific authority.
For Gap Creationism, possibly; for Evolution, I think it's the other way round. From the earliest of the Christian fathers and probably before that the question has not been how to fit God into the evidence of his creation, but how the evidence of creation explains the processes of God. Until the Reformation all European Science was dedicated entirely to that end, and mostly carried out by monks, and even afterwards, until the Industrial Revolution and beyond, many of the greatest scientists were clerics. They were not "trying to fit God into the development of the world", they were doing exactly the opposite. Sadly, unable to see that these huge and intricate discoveries magnified rather than diminished the creative power of God, some people clung (and still cling) desperately to an over-literal interpretation of their bible in the vain hope that somehow they could squeeze Science in somehow. Not Theistic Evolutionists, I assure you!

crochet1949
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1446
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby crochet1949 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:30 pm

Well -- God explains His process in Genesis. I'm TRYING to understand what you're saying. You're saying that What exactly is an over-literal interpretation? That the various days in the week were Not literal 24- hr days? Then what do you do with 'So the evening and the morning were the 1st day." And then on to the 2nd day all the way to the 6th day.
So You are saying that scientifically that isn't possible - so , therefore.....?

crochet1949
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1446
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby crochet1949 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:46 pm

I THINK that ACB --Gap Theory saying that there were Two worlds -- one Pre-Adamic and the other one starting With Adam and proceeding onward. The problem with That is that according to Genesis, sin resulting in physical death took place as a result OF Adam and Eve eating the fruit. So there would Not have been any people living Before Adam dying. They'd all still be living at the time of Adam and Eve. Even with the various ice ages -- people would have survived Somehow and no one would have disobeyed God during all those thousands of years before Adam. The Only world that we hear about is the angelic world in heaven.

Highfarey -- I Think is saying that the actual creation event took place over thousands of years instead of the week in Genesis. Possibly based on the passage that says 'a thousand years are as one day and a day as a thousand years' -- which says that in God's eyes - time is meaningless. Which it Is for God. We live in a 7 / 24-hr day / week. That is the time frame that the creation events were written in. IF God created everything in 1,000 yr time increments, why wouldn't He have just stated that? We could have understood That just as easily.

So - how is my understanding of 'this' so far?!

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5488
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Contact:

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby Jac3510 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:16 pm

Crochet, let me compliment you publicly on your desire to understand what someone is saying before you try to criticize their position. We would all do well to remember to do the same.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

crochet1949
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1446
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby crochet1949 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:08 pm

Jac3510 wrote:Crochet, let me compliment you publicly on your desire to understand what someone is saying before you try to criticize their position. We would all do well to remember to do the same.



WOW -- thank you y@};-

hughfarey
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:58 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby hughfarey » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:37 am

crochet1949 wrote:Highfarey ....
!!Sounds like the top of a Christmas Tree to me, but let that pass!
I Think is saying that the actual creation event took place over thousands of years instead of the week in Genesis. Possibly based on the passage that says 'a thousand years are as one day and a day as a thousand years'
No. Not based on any biblical passage. Quite the reverse. The biblical passages are explanations of observed creation.
which says that in God's eyes - time is meaningless. Which it Is for God.
Quite so. Primitive human understanding of time simply failed to match the grandeur of the world around them, until they were inspired by God to realise that reality is far more complex.
IF God created everything in 1,000 yr time increments, why wouldn't He have just stated that? We could have understood That just as easily.
I don't think we would have done, given the understanding of the world we had at the time. Of course he could have directed the world in whatever way he wished, but his teaching as recorded in the bible fitted the gradually increasing understanding of the people who recorded it. And then subsequent people found that the (inspired) understanding of their forbears helped them to develop the way of life that eventually led to Christianity, democracy, the concept of human rights and so on. It is a pity that for some groups of people, this gradual increase of understanding fossilised in about 1500, but I'm sure God is delighted that so many of us are still working on it!
So - how is my understanding of 'this' so far?!
About 5 out of 10, to be honest, and I think deeply based on thinking of the bible the wrong way round. I don't think God had a message in human words to deliver, and simply dumped on a handful of men with pens over a couple of thousand years to get it written down. I think God allowed men to develop their understanding of their place in his creation for themselves, mostly getting it wrong, but pleased when they recognised the truth, however limited.

crochet1949
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1446
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby crochet1949 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:26 pm

Okay -- sounds like an 'oops' is in order -- 'hUghfarey' -- the Christmas tree ornament -- a fairy (angel) High on top of the tree. :)

okay -- the Primitive human understanding of time.....a different culture in a different time in history. Are we possibly saying the same thing but in different ways. That which we have in Scripture is what God gave us, Himself, for the understanding of Everyone who's ever had it TO read. So -- yes, He Did 'direct' the world in the way in which He Did see fit.

Okay -- this world has developed from no running water to modern plumbing -- from no electricity to it being 'discovered' and expanded in use to areas still being developed. I think I'm following your thoughts. So we Are on the same page.

Well -- God Has a message to deliver to all of mankind. He's chosen to share His information Through inspiring Godly men, of His choosing, to give it To. Just the fact that we Have the "'In the beginning God created....'" It HAD to be Given to mankind By God Through the human writer, Moses. Cause No one was 'there' to observe it. Except God/ Godhead.

As an aside -- just finished watching the movie "Contact" with Jodie Foster. Have you ever seen that? Very thought provoking.

God Has given us the brains to develop the various scientific fields. And having just watched the movie -- I'm definitely of the mind set that the Dr. Irway? that Jodie Foster portrayed -- she was convinced through her own experience that there are things in this world that science Can't explain. And she Became a Believer in that which she Hadn't been previously.

So - yes - "pleased when they recognized the truth, however limited."

hughfarey
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:58 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby hughfarey » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:45 am

crochet1949 wrote: [... the whole comment ...]
Gosh! It sounds as we're getting as close to an understanding of each other as we're ever likely to. The Holy Spirit working flat out, bless him.
... there are things in this world that science Can't explain. And she Became a Believer in that which she Hadn't been previously.
Can't. A word with two distinct meanings here. Either that Science can't explain things at the moment, because of technological or intellectual limitations, but which might become accessible to explanation in time. Or that some things are intrinsically irrational, and could never be understood scientifically even if everything possible were known about them. The first is hopeful, the second hopeless, and Hope is one of the great virtues of St Paul.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 7989
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:51 am

Not sure if science will be able to explain everything since it deals with what is observable ( to whatever extend something can be observed) and there are things that may never be observable.

hughfarey
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:58 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby hughfarey » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:22 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Not sure if science will be able to explain everything since it deals with what is observable ( to whatever extend something can be observed) and there are things that may never be observable.
Possibly. That's why Hope is one of the three cardinal virtues.

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5696
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY

Re: Transitional / intermediate

Postby Byblos » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:08 am

hughfarey wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Not sure if science will be able to explain everything since it deals with what is observable ( to whatever extend something can be observed) and there are things that may never be observable.
Possibly. That's why Hope is one of the three cardinal virtues.


Three cardinal virtues, Hugh, you're such a Catholic. :mrgreen:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.


Return to “God and Science”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests