2 Christian biologists on evolution

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
bippy123
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2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby bippy123 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:34 pm

This is a debate between Michael Behe and professor fox , both believers .
Fox argues for evolution and Behe argues for ID.
This is a much better debate then the last link I posted .

https://youtu.be/luRGzVrr2Cs

I'd say that my position on this is slowly evolving and more closely matches Michael behes position .
Behe correctly states that Id isn't anti evolution , just anti Darwinian evolution.. Behe seems to be somewhere in between Id and evolution .

Guys let's hear your take on this debate .

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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:46 pm

My view has always been that the "randomness" in evolution doesn't really counter the "design" element in ID.
I believe that we were designed to adapt to randomness.
I don't think the universe/life was designed to the nth degree.
I think it was designed with the ability to adapt and evolve to it's environment and changes in its environment.

I believe that God created life, that He started the process going and designed it with the ability to survive and what we call evolution is just an expression of that design.
I believe that as sustainer of all, He is intimately involved in all that happens even if He doesn't have to "micro manage" the whole thing.
In reality, I see life being able to adapt and overcome change as a sign of a creator and not as a sign against one.
I mean, If I was to create life I would want it to have the ability to adapt and overcame change, wouldn't you?

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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby bippy123 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:56 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:My view has always been that the "randomness" in evolution doesn't really counter the "design" element in ID.
I believe that we were designed to adapt to randomness.
I don't think the universe/life was designed to the nth degree.
I think it was designed with the ability to adapt and evolve to it's environment and changes in its environment.

I believe that God created life, that He started the process going and designed it with the ability to survive and what we call evolution is just an expression of that design.
I believe that as sustainer of all, He is intimately involved in all that happens even if He doesn't have to "micro manage" the whole thing.
In reality, I see life being able to adapt and overcome change as a sign of a creator and not as a sign against one.
I mean, If I was to create life I would want it to have the ability to adapt and overcame change, wouldn't you?


Paul that is pretty close to what Behe believes . Behe also believes in common descent as well and sees no conflict between common descent and intelligent design .

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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:02 am

Yeah and the thing is, I don't like when scientists make absolute statements.
If science has taught us anything, it is to NOT make absolute statements because, tomorrow, we will find evidence to the contrary.
The evidence for what we call evolution is very strong BUT the evidence for evolution via natural selection ( with NS being totally random and by accident), is not.

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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby AirBetweenTheNotes » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:06 pm

He completed it & it was very good plus ceased from Creating, I wouldn't doubt that He keeps it all together by rolling it around like a ball in His hand or around arms & across chest like one rolling a ball around. Just for the amusement of it all but He does keep it all from coming apart as maybe a continual act of creation that invisible force holding it all together until the great uncreating or dissolutionment of everything at the atomic level but I'm not sure that creation is the word to be used here. Artistic licence applied somewhat here....

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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby hughfarey » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:27 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Yeah and the thing is, I don't like when scientists make absolute statements.
Hear, hear, absolutely.
If science has taught us anything, it is to NOT make absolute statements because, tomorrow, we will find evidence to the contrary.
er... we MAY find evidence to the contrary (important not to make absolute statements...).
The evidence for what we call evolution is very strong BUT the evidence for evolution via natural selection (with NS being totally random and by accident), is not.
"very strong", in some people's opinion [...] "is not", in other people's opinion (important not to make absolute statements...).

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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby Audie » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:37 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Yeah and the thing is, I don't like when scientists make absolute statements.
If science has taught us anything, it is to NOT make absolute statements because, tomorrow, we will find evidence to the contrary.
The evidence for what we call evolution is very strong BUT the evidence for evolution via natural selection ( with NS being totally random and by accident), is not.



I've been around scientists all my life, and it has not been my experience that they are given to
absolute statements, that being such a fundamental error.


I've been around religious people too. I have noticed a considerable tendency among them to
not just declare absolutes, but betimes to present that they themselves are infallible, having as they
do, access to infallible information.

Why do you suppose there is this difference?

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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby Audie » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:38 am

AirBetweenTheNotes wrote:He completed it & it was very good plus ceased from Creating, I wouldn't doubt that He keeps it all together by rolling it around like a ball in His hand or around arms & across chest like one rolling a ball around. Just for the amusement of it all but He does keep it all from coming apart as maybe a continual act of creation that invisible force holding it all together until the great uncreating or dissolutionment of everything at the atomic level but I'm not sure that creation is the word to be used here. Artistic licence applied somewhat here....


Huh?

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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby RickD » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:10 am

Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Yeah and the thing is, I don't like when scientists make absolute statements.
If science has taught us anything, it is to NOT make absolute statements because, tomorrow, we will find evidence to the contrary.
The evidence for what we call evolution is very strong BUT the evidence for evolution via natural selection ( with NS being totally random and by accident), is not.



I've been around scientists all my life, and it has not been my experience that they are given to
absolute statements, that being such a fundamental error.


I've been around religious people too. I have noticed a considerable tendency among them to
not just declare absolutes, but betimes to present that they themselves are infallible, having as they
do, access to infallible information.

Why do you suppose there is this difference?

Maybe because you only notice what you want to notice?

I've noticed both, science types, and religious types, who as you say, declare absolutes regarding their beliefs.

Maybe you just need to think outside of your comfort zone.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Audie
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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby Audie » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:56 am

RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Yeah and the thing is, I don't like when scientists make absolute statements.
If science has taught us anything, it is to NOT make absolute statements because, tomorrow, we will find evidence to the contrary.
The evidence for what we call evolution is very strong BUT the evidence for evolution via natural selection ( with NS being totally random and by accident), is not.



I've been around scientists all my life, and it has not been my experience that they are given to
absolute statements, that being such a fundamental error.


I've been around religious people too. I have noticed a considerable tendency among them to
not just declare absolutes, but betimes to present that they themselves are infallible, having as they
do, access to infallible information.

Why do you suppose there is this difference?

Maybe because you only notice what you want to notice?

I've noticed both, science types, and religious types, who as you say, declare absolutes regarding their beliefs.

Maybe you just need to think outside of your comfort zone.


You do love that "comfort zone" cliche, dont you? You get to imply so much with so little content.

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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby Audacity » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:04 am

RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Yeah and the thing is, I don't like when scientists make absolute statements.
If science has taught us anything, it is to NOT make absolute statements because, tomorrow, we will find evidence to the contrary.
The evidence for what we call evolution is very strong BUT the evidence for evolution via natural selection ( with NS being totally random and by accident), is not.



I've been around scientists all my life, and it has not been my experience that they are given to
absolute statements, that being such a fundamental error.


I've been around religious people too. I have noticed a considerable tendency among them to
not just declare absolutes, but betimes to present that they themselves are infallible, having as they
do, access to infallible information.

Why do you suppose there is this difference?

Maybe because you only notice what you want to notice?

I've noticed both, science types, and religious types, who as you say, declare absolutes regarding their beliefs.

Maybe you just need to think outside of your comfort zone.

While it's not unusual for science types, and religious types, to misstate or overstate the issues, findings, and conclusions of their respective fields of interest, it's quite unusual for scientists and theologians to do so. Thing is, she didn't say "science types," but "scientists." There is a difference.

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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby RickD » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:07 am

Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Yeah and the thing is, I don't like when scientists make absolute statements.
If science has taught us anything, it is to NOT make absolute statements because, tomorrow, we will find evidence to the contrary.
The evidence for what we call evolution is very strong BUT the evidence for evolution via natural selection ( with NS being totally random and by accident), is not.



I've been around scientists all my life, and it has not been my experience that they are given to
absolute statements, that being such a fundamental error.


I've been around religious people too. I have noticed a considerable tendency among them to
not just declare absolutes, but betimes to present that they themselves are infallible, having as they
do, access to infallible information.

Why do you suppose there is this difference?

Maybe because you only notice what you want to notice?

I've noticed both, science types, and religious types, who as you say, declare absolutes regarding their beliefs.

Maybe you just need to think outside of your comfort zone.

While it's not unusual for science types, and religious types, to misstate or overstate the issues, findings, and conclusions of their respective fields of interest, it's quite unusual for scientists and theologians to do so. Thing is, she didn't say "science types," but "scientists." There is a difference.

I guess Audie would have to explain why she compared scientists to religious people, instead of theologians, if you think it makes a difference.

Audie?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby Audie » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:43 am

RickD wrote:
Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Yeah and the thing is, I don't like when scientists make absolute statements.
If science has taught us anything, it is to NOT make absolute statements because, tomorrow, we will find evidence to the contrary.
The evidence for what we call evolution is very strong BUT the evidence for evolution via natural selection ( with NS being totally random and by accident), is not.



I've been around scientists all my life, and it has not been my experience that they are given to
absolute statements, that being such a fundamental error.


I've been around religious people too. I have noticed a considerable tendency among them to
not just declare absolutes, but betimes to present that they themselves are infallible, having as they
do, access to infallible information.

Why do you suppose there is this difference?

Maybe because you only notice what you want to notice?

I've noticed both, science types, and religious types, who as you say, declare absolutes regarding their beliefs.

Maybe you just need to think outside of your comfort zone.

While it's not unusual for science types, and religious types, to misstate or overstate the issues, findings, and conclusions of their respective fields of interest, it's quite unusual for scientists and theologians to do so. Thing is, she didn't say "science types," but "scientists." There is a difference.

I guess Audie would have to explain why she compared scientists to religious people, instead of theologians, if you think it makes a difference.

Audie?


I noticed that too. The error on your part is not contingent on my having to explain something.
How about taking a little responsibility for yourself?


As for "theologians" i am disinclined to think they say that there is a high level of confidence that
god is real.

All of you here ( a more reasonable group to discuss than unknown unnamed someones out there somewhere) appear to "know" ( an absolute) that there is a god.
You "prove it" with your logic and you even know for a fact which god it is.

Some go further and absolutely know, infallibly, how to interpret "god's word".

Looks endemic to me. Exceptions are invited to show their hands.

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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby RickD » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:03 pm

Audie wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:

I've been around scientists all my life, and it has not been my experience that they are given to
absolute statements, that being such a fundamental error.


I've been around religious people too. I have noticed a considerable tendency among them to
not just declare absolutes, but betimes to present that they themselves are infallible, having as they
do, access to infallible information.

Why do you suppose there is this difference?

Maybe because you only notice what you want to notice?

I've noticed both, science types, and religious types, who as you say, declare absolutes regarding their beliefs.

Maybe you just need to think outside of your comfort zone.

While it's not unusual for science types, and religious types, to misstate or overstate the issues, findings, and conclusions of their respective fields of interest, it's quite unusual for scientists and theologians to do so. Thing is, she didn't say "science types," but "scientists." There is a difference.

I guess Audie would have to explain why she compared scientists to religious people, instead of theologians, if you think it makes a difference.

Audie?


I noticed that too. The error on your part is not contingent on my having to explain something.
How about taking a little responsibility for yourself?


As for "theologians" i am disinclined to think they say that there is a high level of confidence that
god is real.

All of you here ( a more reasonable group to discuss than unknown unnamed someones out there somewhere) appear to "know" ( an absolute) that there is a god.
You "prove it" with your logic and you even know for a fact which god it is.

Some go further and absolutely know, infallibly, how to interpret "god's word".

Looks endemic to me. Exceptions are invited to show their hands.


You really are precious, Audie!
y>:D<
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Audie
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Re: 2 Christian biologists on evolution

Postby Audie » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:06 pm

RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audacity wrote:
RickD wrote:Maybe because you only notice what you want to notice?

I've noticed both, science types, and religious types, who as you say, declare absolutes regarding their beliefs.

Maybe you just need to think outside of your comfort zone.

While it's not unusual for science types, and religious types, to misstate or overstate the issues, findings, and conclusions of their respective fields of interest, it's quite unusual for scientists and theologians to do so. Thing is, she didn't say "science types," but "scientists." There is a difference.

I guess Audie would have to explain why she compared scientists to religious people, instead of theologians, if you think it makes a difference.

Audie?


I noticed that too. The error on your part is not contingent on my having to explain something.
How about taking a little responsibility for yourself?


As for "theologians" i am disinclined to think they say that there is a high level of confidence that
god is real.

All of you here ( a more reasonable group to discuss than unknown unnamed someones out there somewhere) appear to "know" ( an absolute) that there is a god.
You "prove it" with your logic and you even know for a fact which god it is.

Some go further and absolutely know, infallibly, how to interpret "god's word".

Looks endemic to me. Exceptions are invited to show their hands.


You really are precious, Audie!
y>:D<


Were you saving that bit of cleverness for whatever answer I gave?


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