The Most Wild View On Creation

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby RickD » Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:53 am

jalvarez4Jesus wrote:
RickD wrote:
jalvarez wrote:
And since Jeremiah 4 makes it clear God judged the world to make it the way it was in Genesis 1:2, there must have been a judgement from God in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

Where does Jeremiah 4 make this clear?

Jeremiah 4 is crystal clear about this being God's judgment on the world, if that's what you're asking.
"I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger." (Jeremiah 4:26).

If you are asking about proof that Jeremiah 4 is about Genesis 1:2, I posted that already (directly above your post).

Then I misunderstood what you wrote. I thought you were saying that Jeremiah 4 makes it clear that there must have been a judgment from God in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. If that's what you were saying, I want to know where.

And no, Jeremiah 4 isn't about judgement on the entire world. It's talking about Judah.
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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby jalvarez4Jesus » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:43 am

neo-x wrote:
jalvarez4Jesus wrote:
RickD wrote:
jalvarez wrote:
And since Jeremiah 4 makes it clear God judged the world to make it the way it was in Genesis 1:2, there must have been a judgement from God in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

Where does Jeremiah 4 make this clear?

Jeremiah 4 is crystal clear about this being God's judgment on the world, if that's what you're asking.
"I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger." (Jeremiah 4:26).

If you are asking about proof that Jeremiah 4 is about Genesis 1:2, I posted that already (directly above your post).


You are ignoring the fact that the gap wasn't preached, otherwise, it would have been given much more space in the scriptures. It is not a doctrine that is affirmed by scripture, nor the prophets. Nor it was taught. Otherwise, Moses could have simply said...look..a gap. So could have Jeremiah or any other prophets. To them, there was no gap...BECAUSE IT MADE NO SENSE. The God they knew wasn't doing things in an arbitrary way. There was beauty in what he did. A single line gap was the worst possible offense on the aesthetics of the scriptures. It served no purpose, nor elaborated anything about God. Not to mention it created a gap(no pun intended) in the creation story which couldn't be filled by the authors. Things don't work like this. If you are not ready to consider the problems it would create for the authors then you are not giving this issue the attention it deserves.

And believe me, you should have considered the post on Hebrew and grammar which Jac made. Really, I am not sure how anyone can move around that.

I sympathize with you, I used to believe in the gap theory but after learning I let it go. Things just don't add up. There are bigger questions to ask.

Yes, the gap was preached by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 4. Whine about all the aesthetics to God you want, that's what the Bible says.

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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby jalvarez4Jesus » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:54 am

B. W. wrote:Not true - is about ancient people human beings in Israel in Judah and Jerusalem.

Nope. I already debunked that. Jeremiah said that he saw the earth WITHOUT FORM (or a watery mess). Judah flooded by water anytime after Jeremiah made this statement up to the present day. It can't be about Judah.

B. W. wrote:no mention of people, human beings ever existing pre-gap time, yet the context is plain.

Except in Jeremiah 4. How many times does God have to mention something before it becomes true?

B. W. wrote:Human beings existing an in all places in Judah and Jerusalem before the Gap and were created before God said man was. Wow that is a stretch...

The angels are often called "men" in scripture.

B. W. wrote:Jer 4:3 For thus says the LORD to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem, "Break up your fallow ground, And do not sow among thorns.
Jer 4:4 "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD And remove the foreskins of your heart, Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Or else My wrath will go forth like fire And burn with none to quench it, Because of the evil of your deeds."
Jer 4:5 Declare in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem, and say, "Blow the trumpet in the land; Cry aloud and say, 'Assemble yourselves, and let us go Into the fortified cities.'
Jer 4:6 "Lift up a standard toward Zion! Seek refuge, do not stand still, For I am bringing evil from the north, And great destruction.
NASB

That is the context - and notice these verses: Isa 24:19-23; Eze32:7-8; Joel 2:10, Joel 2:30-31, Joel 3:15-16; Amos 8:9; Mat 24:29,35; Mark 13:24-25; Luke 21:25-26; Acts 2:19-20 about end time events too.

But that is NOT the VISION Jeremiah had later in the chapter. "I BEHELD the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light." (Jeremiah 4:23). Yes, as I have already stated, the context is for Israel. But in verse 23, Jeremiah begins seeing a VISION that is demonstrably about the Genesis 1:2 earth desgined to warn the Jews about what God can do to destroy sinners.

B. W. wrote:Notice Verse 28 which is after verse 26...

Jer 4:26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus says the LORD, "The whole land shall be a desolation, Yet I will not execute a complete destruction.
Jer 4:28 "For this the earth shall mourn And the heavens above be dark, Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it."


Look at the underlined part and notice that this is not about a pre-adamic world for if it really was God would have used other words like - I destroyed it when I spoken and did not change my mind... ie using past tense and not future tenses.

But look at verse 27 in the KJV, "For thus HATH the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end." That's past tense. In other words, because of what the Lord JUST SAID in verses 23-26, the whole land would become desolation, etc. Because God was just enough to destroy the entire earth with water to make it without form, He will destroy Judah for their sins, but not as much as He did in Genesis 1:2, "yet will I not make a full end." (Jer. 4:27).

B. W. wrote:Next:

Quoted from the Summarized Bible Below

Jeremiah 4:1-31

Contents: Jeremiah’s second message, continued. Warning of the consequences of sin and exhortation to return to God.
Characters: God, Jeremiah.

Conclusion: It is the evil of men’s doings that kindles the fires of God’s wrath against them and brings destruction upon the land. That which is to be before He moves, which makes a way of escape for those who will sincerely turn to Him and receive His mercy.

Dreaded above everything else is the wrath of God, but God always warns

Key Word: Desolations, Jer 4:7.
Strong Verses: Jer 4:22.

Summaries are no replacement for the actual words of God.

B. W. wrote:I feel like Jac now... :brick:

Best I can do is for anyone coming to this post thread and see the error of using this chapter to support Gap theory... and come to his or her own conclusions...
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Again, I strongly disagree.

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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby jalvarez4Jesus » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:56 am

RickD wrote:Then I misunderstood what you wrote. I thought you were saying that Jeremiah 4 makes it clear that there must have been a judgment from God in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. If that's what you were saying, I want to know where.

And no, Jeremiah 4 isn't about judgement on the entire world. It's talking about Judah.

Jeremiah 4:23-26 is not ABOUT Judah, but it certainly is FOR Judah. Jeremiah 4:23 says, "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light." When Genesis 1:2 says the earth was "WITHOUT FORM", it means that there was no land on the earth, there was no solid structure or form to it. It was a watery mess. The same applies to Jeremiah 4:23. Jeremiah sees an earth WITHOUT FORM, a watery mess. Judah never became a watery mess after Jeremiah said that prophecy. This can't be about Judah. The only thing this could be about is Genesis 1:2 because the details match so closely.

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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby RickD » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:31 am

jalvarez4Jesus wrote:
RickD wrote:Then I misunderstood what you wrote. I thought you were saying that Jeremiah 4 makes it clear that there must have been a judgment from God in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. If that's what you were saying, I want to know where.

And no, Jeremiah 4 isn't about judgement on the entire world. It's talking about Judah.

Jeremiah 4:23-26 is not ABOUT Judah, but it certainly is FOR Judah. Jeremiah 4:23 says, "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light." When Genesis 1:2 says the earth was "WITHOUT FORM", it means that there was no land on the earth, there was no solid structure or form to it. It was a watery mess. The same applies to Jeremiah 4:23. Jeremiah sees an earth WITHOUT FORM, a watery mess. Judah never became a watery mess after Jeremiah said that prophecy. This can't be about Judah. The only thing this could be about is Genesis 1:2 because the details match so closely.

The entire chapter 4 in Jeremiah, is about Judah. Anyone who actually reads what the text actually says, can see that. The reference back to Genesis, is to show how great the land's destruction will be.

It really takes a lot of reading into Jeremiah 4, to get "Gap Theory" out of the text.
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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby jalvarez4Jesus » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:41 am

RickD wrote:The entire chapter 4 in Jeremiah, is about Judah. Anyone who actually reads what the text actually says, can see that. The reference back to Genesis, is to show how great the land's destruction will be.

It really takes a lot of reading into Jeremiah 4, to get "Gap Theory" out of the text.

THEN YOU JUST ADMITTED THIS WAS ABOUT GENESIS!!! :clap: Congratulations! Jeremiah 4 is referring in your words "back to Genesis". So when this passage referring back to Genesis says that the earth WITHOUT FORM AND VOID was destroyed by God, this must mean by your own admission that the Genesis 1:2 world was destroyed by God. "I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger." (Jeremiah 4:26). Welcome to the gap!

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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby RickD » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:51 am

jalvarez4Jesus wrote:
RickD wrote:The entire chapter 4 in Jeremiah, is about Judah. Anyone who actually reads what the text actually says, can see that. The reference back to Genesis, is to show how great the land's destruction will be.

It really takes a lot of reading into Jeremiah 4, to get "Gap Theory" out of the text.

THEN YOU JUST ADMITTED THIS WAS ABOUT GENESIS!!! :clap: Congratulations! Jeremiah 4 is referring in your words "back to Genesis". So when this passage referring back to Genesis says that the earth WITHOUT FORM AND VOID was destroyed by God, this must mean by your own admission that the Genesis 1:2 world was destroyed by God. "I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger." (Jeremiah 4:26). Welcome to the gap!

Umm...not quite. But nice try. ;)


Jeremiah described the land of Judah, after the coming devastation, as appearing completely desolate: like the earth before God formed it. Jeremiah was showing that the land would return to the chaos as it was before.

The verses in Jeremiah 4, are talking about judah's sin, and God's anger and wrath against her. Not about wrath against the planet.
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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby jalvarez4Jesus » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:54 am

RickD wrote:
jalvarez4Jesus wrote:
RickD wrote:The entire chapter 4 in Jeremiah, is about Judah. Anyone who actually reads what the text actually says, can see that. The reference back to Genesis, is to show how great the land's destruction will be.

It really takes a lot of reading into Jeremiah 4, to get "Gap Theory" out of the text.

THEN YOU JUST ADMITTED THIS WAS ABOUT GENESIS!!! :clap: Congratulations! Jeremiah 4 is referring in your words "back to Genesis". So when this passage referring back to Genesis says that the earth WITHOUT FORM AND VOID was destroyed by God, this must mean by your own admission that the Genesis 1:2 world was destroyed by God. "I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger." (Jeremiah 4:26). Welcome to the gap!

Umm...not quite. But nice try. ;)


Jeremiah described the land of Judah, after the coming devastation, as appearing completely desolate: like the earth before God formed it. Jeremiah was showing that the land would return to the chaos as it was before.

The verses in Jeremiah 4, are talking about judah's sin, and God's anger and wrath against her. Not about wrath against the planet.

But, but, but, verse 26 is in the exact same VISION "I beheld" as verse 23, which you now freely admit is about Genesis 1:2. If verse 26 is describing the same thing as verse 23 (which it must, since they are part of the same vision), then the Genesis 1:2 world was destroyed by God's wrath. Think about it.

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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby RickD » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:08 am

jalvarez4Jesus wrote:
RickD wrote:
jalvarez4Jesus wrote:
RickD wrote:The entire chapter 4 in Jeremiah, is about Judah. Anyone who actually reads what the text actually says, can see that. The reference back to Genesis, is to show how great the land's destruction will be.

It really takes a lot of reading into Jeremiah 4, to get "Gap Theory" out of the text.

THEN YOU JUST ADMITTED THIS WAS ABOUT GENESIS!!! :clap: Congratulations! Jeremiah 4 is referring in your words "back to Genesis". So when this passage referring back to Genesis says that the earth WITHOUT FORM AND VOID was destroyed by God, this must mean by your own admission that the Genesis 1:2 world was destroyed by God. "I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger." (Jeremiah 4:26). Welcome to the gap!

Umm...not quite. But nice try. ;)


Jeremiah described the land of Judah, after the coming devastation, as appearing completely desolate: like the earth before God formed it. Jeremiah was showing that the land would return to the chaos as it was before.

The verses in Jeremiah 4, are talking about judah's sin, and God's anger and wrath against her. Not about wrath against the planet.

But, but, but, verse 26 is in the exact same VISION "I beheld" as verse 23, which you now freely admit is about Genesis 1:2. If verse 26 is describing the same thing as verse 23 (which it must, since they are part of the same vision), then the Genesis 1:2 world was destroyed by God's wrath. Think about it.

Let's look at Jeremiah 4:23-26. I use the NASB because that's what this forum uses.
Jeremiah 4:23-26New American Standard Bible (NASB)

23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was [a] formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills [b]moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, [c]the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.


Verse 23 is a vision of the future that Jeremiah sees. He uses the same words as were used in Genesis, to show how great the destruction of the land would be. In other words, it's a reference to the words used in Genesis 1:2, for comparison. It's not a vision of Genesis 1:2.

Again, Jeremiah's vision is comparing the coming desolation, with how the earth looked before a God formed it(Genesis 1:2). It's not a comparison showing that God destroyed the earth, and some supposed gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

Just read the text for yourself. It doesn't say anything about God destroying the earth before Genesis 1:2. If the text doesn't say it, you're reading into the text, your gap theology.
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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby jalvarez4Jesus » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:20 am

But once again, Jeremiah cannot be talking about a future destruction, because Israel NEVER BECAME WITHOUT FORM! It never was flooded by water!

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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby B. W. » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:21 am

jalvarez4Jesus wrote:
B. W. wrote:Not true - is about ancient people human beings in Israel in Judah and Jerusalem.

Nope. I already debunked that. Jeremiah said that he saw the earth WITHOUT FORM (or a watery mess). Judah flooded by water anytime after Jeremiah made this statement up to the present day. It can't be about Judah...


Oh so Jeremiah was there and saw God create!

Brilliant deduction Sherlock :lol:

The context of Jeremiah in that chapter betrays your deductions as myself and others here have pointed out...

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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby neo-x » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:25 am

jalvarez4Jesus wrote:
neo-x wrote:
jalvarez4Jesus wrote:
RickD wrote:
jalvarez wrote:
And since Jeremiah 4 makes it clear God judged the world to make it the way it was in Genesis 1:2, there must have been a judgement from God in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

Where does Jeremiah 4 make this clear?

Jeremiah 4 is crystal clear about this being God's judgment on the world, if that's what you're asking.
"I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger." (Jeremiah 4:26).

If you are asking about proof that Jeremiah 4 is about Genesis 1:2, I posted that already (directly above your post).


You are ignoring the fact that the gap wasn't preached, otherwise, it would have been given much more space in the scriptures. It is not a doctrine that is affirmed by scripture, nor the prophets. Nor it was taught. Otherwise, Moses could have simply said...look..a gap. So could have Jeremiah or any other prophets. To them, there was no gap...BECAUSE IT MADE NO SENSE. The God they knew wasn't doing things in an arbitrary way. There was beauty in what he did. A single line gap was the worst possible offense on the aesthetics of the scriptures. It served no purpose, nor elaborated anything about God. Not to mention it created a gap(no pun intended) in the creation story which couldn't be filled by the authors. Things don't work like this. If you are not ready to consider the problems it would create for the authors then you are not giving this issue the attention it deserves.

And believe me, you should have considered the post on Hebrew and grammar which Jac made. Really, I am not sure how anyone can move around that.

I sympathize with you, I used to believe in the gap theory but after learning I let it go. Things just don't add up. There are bigger questions to ask.

Yes, the gap was preached by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 4. Whine about all the aesthetics to God you want, that's what the Bible says.


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People treat facts as relevant more when the facts tend to support their opinions. When the facts are against their opinions, they don't necessarily deny the facts, but they say the facts are less relevant or insignificant. This is ofcourse because believing things that make you feel comfortable, takes a priority. And I think that should not be the case if one is after truth.

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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby RickD » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:25 am

jalvarez4Jesus wrote:But once again, Jeremiah cannot be talking about a future destruction, because Israel NEVER BECAME WITHOUT FORM! It never was flooded by water!

The comparison is the desolation of the land. Jeremiah was suggesting the land would return to chaos.

Chaos before God formed the land.

Chaos after.

You're reading too much into it, to make it fit your Gap theology.

Anyone following this thread just has to read Jeremiah 4 for themselves, to see that it's talking about a vision of the future.
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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby B. W. » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:29 am

The vision uses a creation metaphor due to what Peter reveals in 2 Peter 3:7,10 ... And John in Rev 21:1-4...

No reference to a gap in the creation account is what is being implied but rather one - punishment of Israel way back then and the future day of wrath to come.

One thing about the bible, it will reveal hubris pride within a person so they can repent of it!
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Re: The Most Wild View On Creation

Postby jalvarez4Jesus » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:50 am

RickD wrote:
jalvarez4Jesus wrote:But once again, Jeremiah cannot be talking about a future destruction, because Israel NEVER BECAME WITHOUT FORM! It never was flooded by water!

The comparison is the desolation of the land. Jeremiah was suggesting the land would return to chaos.

Chaos before God formed the land.

Chaos after.

You're reading too much into it, to make it fit your Gap theology.

Anyone following this thread just has to read Jeremiah 4 for themselves, to see that it's talking about a vision of the future.

But the earth was never without form after.


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