The biblical flood date

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby RickD » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:35 pm

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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby Philip » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:06 pm

My general take-this is far from my field- but my understanding is that all
manner of organic molecules have a way of self assembling under a wide variety of conditions, to produce a wide variety of products.


If they did not self-CREATE, then they did not self-ASSEMBLE themselves. And the laws that govern them, that set the hard parameters of their capabilities, also did not create themselves. Everything that came into being at the moment of the Big Bang obeyed laws that were instantly governing their abilities and limits of their functionality. These laws are extraordinarily consistent - there is absolute nothing random about their parameters, or the basic functionalities. These all tick off every box of what we would call organized complexity, and stupendous so. They show ever hallmark of a Super Intelligence. But if one wants to believe, given enough time and chance, rocks will later do calculus - well, how can one argue with such logic. What we see, on every level of the universe, in countless ways, is unfathomable consistency! Yes, there is variability, but ONLY within very defined limits. Constant randomness is the exact opposite of what is observed. Blind randomness produced breathtaking complexity and precision, on an unimaginable scale. You just can argue with those who sense of logic allows for this. Redundant but true: "The Source of all things had to be eternal! It had to be unbelievably powerful. It HAD to be far more intelligent than we can truly understand!

Regardless, the speed with which chemical reactions can take place, the rather large number of available ions and molecules to work with, 330 million cubic miles of water, and some few million years, I'd kind of think most any
combo that can happen would happen.


And so do these chemicals have minds of their own? Do they have unlimited capabilities? Of do they no, instead, show remarkable consistency in their immense complexity and sophistication, withing strict parameters? They ALL obey laws of the universe - laws of awesome consistency. Laws don't create themselves. And chemicals don't THINK!

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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby Kurieuo » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:12 pm

Re: the flood date, I'm now of the opinion that it happened in spring of 2807 BC. ;)
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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby RickD » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:37 pm

Kurieuo wrote:Re: the flood date, I'm now of the opinion that it happened in spring of 2807 BC. ;)

Ah yes! Immediately following the great winter thaw of 2807. How'd I miss that?
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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby Kurieuo » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:45 pm

RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Re: the flood date, I'm now of the opinion that it happened in spring of 2807 BC. ;)

Ah yes! Immediately following the great winter thaw of 2807. How'd I miss that?

I also don't believe the flood was in one location, because the flood catastrophe myths in their various locations around the world don't support such. Ergo, I embrace flooding that was experienced worldwide.
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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby RickD » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:14 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Re: the flood date, I'm now of the opinion that it happened in spring of 2807 BC. ;)

Ah yes! Immediately following the great winter thaw of 2807. How'd I miss that?

I also don't believe the flood was in one location, because the flood catastrophe myths in their various locations around the world don't support such. Ergo, I embrace flooding that was experienced worldwide.

Not sure if you're joking, or if you're using some of that infamous Aussie logic. y:-?
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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby Kurieuo » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:41 pm

RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Re: the flood date, I'm now of the opinion that it happened in spring of 2807 BC. ;)

Ah yes! Immediately following the great winter thaw of 2807. How'd I miss that?

I also don't believe the flood was in one location, because the flood catastrophe myths in their various locations around the world don't support such. Ergo, I embrace flooding that was experienced worldwide.

Not sure if you're joking, or if you're using some of that infamous Aussie logic. y:-?

I was onto this track, not long ago... based upon the mythical flood stories seen across many cultures. My idea was that many floods were caused at the same time across the world affecting many different cultures. How else do we explain the plethora of similar sounds flood stories in this culture and that?

BUT, my issue was that Scripture doesn't support many flood catastrophes, but one main one. And it also seemed a bit far-fetched that catastrophic local floods would all happen at the same time across the world, although God could create such, it just doesn't feel right.

Then, I read a book, which filled in the missing puzzle piece I'd somehow not thought of. How could different locations in the world be affected by one flooding catastrophe? I'd direct you to Dr. Masse's research.
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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby RickD » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:47 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Re: the flood date, I'm now of the opinion that it happened in spring of 2807 BC. ;)

Ah yes! Immediately following the great winter thaw of 2807. How'd I miss that?

I also don't believe the flood was in one location, because the flood catastrophe myths in their various locations around the world don't support such. Ergo, I embrace flooding that was experienced worldwide.

Not sure if you're joking, or if you're using some of that infamous Aussie logic. y:-?

I was onto this track, not long ago... based upon the mythical flood stories seen across many cultures. My idea was that many floods were caused at the same time across the world affecting many different cultures. How else do we explain the plethora of similar sounds flood stories in this culture and that?

BUT, my issue was that Scripture doesn't support many flood catastrophes, but one main one. And it also seemed a bit far-fetched that catastrophic local floods would all happen at the same time across the world, although God could create such, it just doesn't feel right.

Then, I read a book, which filled in the missing puzzle piece I'd somehow not thought of. How could different locations in the world be affected by one flooding catastrophe? I'd direct you to Dr. Masse's research.

You mean something along the lines of this?
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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby Kurieuo » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:11 pm

RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:Ah yes! Immediately following the great winter thaw of 2807. How'd I miss that?

I also don't believe the flood was in one location, because the flood catastrophe myths in their various locations around the world don't support such. Ergo, I embrace flooding that was experienced worldwide.

Not sure if you're joking, or if you're using some of that infamous Aussie logic. y:-?

I was onto this track, not long ago... based upon the mythical flood stories seen across many cultures. My idea was that many floods were caused at the same time across the world affecting many different cultures. How else do we explain the plethora of similar sounds flood stories in this culture and that?

BUT, my issue was that Scripture doesn't support many flood catastrophes, but one main one. And it also seemed a bit far-fetched that catastrophic local floods would all happen at the same time across the world, although God could create such, it just doesn't feel right.

Then, I read a book, which filled in the missing puzzle piece I'd somehow not thought of. How could different locations in the world be affected by one flooding catastrophe? I'd direct you to Dr. Masse's research.

You mean something along the lines of this?

Yes, though that is just one article and only skims the surface of Masse's research.
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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby abelcainsbrother » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:47 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:I also don't believe the flood was in one location, because the flood catastrophe myths in their various locations around the world don't support such. Ergo, I embrace flooding that was experienced worldwide.

Not sure if you're joking, or if you're using some of that infamous Aussie logic. y:-?

I was onto this track, not long ago... based upon the mythical flood stories seen across many cultures. My idea was that many floods were caused at the same time across the world affecting many different cultures. How else do we explain the plethora of similar sounds flood stories in this culture and that?

BUT, my issue was that Scripture doesn't support many flood catastrophes, but one main one. And it also seemed a bit far-fetched that catastrophic local floods would all happen at the same time across the world, although God could create such, it just doesn't feel right.

Then, I read a book, which filled in the missing puzzle piece I'd somehow not thought of. How could different locations in the world be affected by one flooding catastrophe? I'd direct you to Dr. Masse's research.

You mean something along the lines of this?

Yes, though that is just one article and only skims the surface of Masse's research.


Just curious,do you know how Masse deals with the glacier ice problem?
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby RickD » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:50 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:Not sure if you're joking, or if you're using some of that infamous Aussie logic. y:-?

I was onto this track, not long ago... based upon the mythical flood stories seen across many cultures. My idea was that many floods were caused at the same time across the world affecting many different cultures. How else do we explain the plethora of similar sounds flood stories in this culture and that?

BUT, my issue was that Scripture doesn't support many flood catastrophes, but one main one. And it also seemed a bit far-fetched that catastrophic local floods would all happen at the same time across the world, although God could create such, it just doesn't feel right.

Then, I read a book, which filled in the missing puzzle piece I'd somehow not thought of. How could different locations in the world be affected by one flooding catastrophe? I'd direct you to Dr. Masse's research.

You mean something along the lines of this?

Yes, though that is just one article and only skims the surface of Masse's research.


Just curious,do you know how Masse deals with the glacier ice problem?

He deals with them...wait for it...en masse.
y:D
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9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby Kurieuo » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:12 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:Not sure if you're joking, or if you're using some of that infamous Aussie logic. y:-?

I was onto this track, not long ago... based upon the mythical flood stories seen across many cultures. My idea was that many floods were caused at the same time across the world affecting many different cultures. How else do we explain the plethora of similar sounds flood stories in this culture and that?

BUT, my issue was that Scripture doesn't support many flood catastrophes, but one main one. And it also seemed a bit far-fetched that catastrophic local floods would all happen at the same time across the world, although God could create such, it just doesn't feel right.

Then, I read a book, which filled in the missing puzzle piece I'd somehow not thought of. How could different locations in the world be affected by one flooding catastrophe? I'd direct you to Dr. Masse's research.

You mean something along the lines of this?

Yes, though that is just one article and only skims the surface of Masse's research.


Just curious,do you know how Masse deals with the glacier ice problem?

Explain the problem to me?
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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby abelcainsbrother » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:29 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:I was onto this track, not long ago... based upon the mythical flood stories seen across many cultures. My idea was that many floods were caused at the same time across the world affecting many different cultures. How else do we explain the plethora of similar sounds flood stories in this culture and that?

BUT, my issue was that Scripture doesn't support many flood catastrophes, but one main one. And it also seemed a bit far-fetched that catastrophic local floods would all happen at the same time across the world, although God could create such, it just doesn't feel right.

Then, I read a book, which filled in the missing puzzle piece I'd somehow not thought of. How could different locations in the world be affected by one flooding catastrophe? I'd direct you to Dr. Masse's research.

You mean something along the lines of this?

Yes, though that is just one article and only skims the surface of Masse's research.


Just curious,do you know how Masse deals with the glacier ice problem?

Explain the problem to me?


Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word problem but from what I read above he seems to have a very similar way of explaining a world wide flood and so I was just wondering how he deals with the glacier ice that is over 100,000 years old and the ice would have had to have survived and remained intact until the flood waters receded. I actually am interested in the way he explains a world wide flood.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby Kurieuo » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:45 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:Perhaps I shouldn't hav[url][/url]e used the word problem but from what I read above he seems to have a very similar way of explaining a world wide flood and so I was just wondering how he deals with the glacier ice that is over 100,000 years old and the ice would have had to have survived and remained intact until the flood waters receded. I actually am interested in the way he explains a world wide flood.

I haven't read Masse directly, although I'm interested to. The book I'm reading is Noah's Flood: Literal or Figurative by Ronald L Conte Jr. I don't agree with a lot of what was written, in fact was going to put the book down. But then, as he evaluates different ideas (e.g., Black Sea flood, Persian Gulf flood, etc) it starts getting quite interesting.

Based on chevrons found in Australia and Madagascar, Masse posits a comet hit in the Indian ocean. You merely follow the chevron directions back to where they meet, and they meet at the Burckle crater in the Indian ocean. This explains various features found in myths from Africa, India, Southeast Asia and Australia. Myths of mega-tsunamis from Brazil, western coast of North America, the Arctic Ocean and in other locations outside the Indian Ocean basin though aren't explained. The presence also of hot or fiery water falling from the sky in several North and South American myths cannot have been caused by atmospheric re-entry ejecta from the Burckle Crater event, and in North America the flood storm comes from the north.

Masse concludes the comet in question likely broke apart (which isn't uncommon), so at least 2-3 fragments struck in different locations. In order to explain these other myths, none of which date earlier than around 2,500 BC or so, the other pieces would need to have been located in other oceans, one in the Atlantic and another in the Pacific. The date for the hit Masse calculates quite specifically to May 10, 2807 BC.

Note, that Masse isn't so much interested in Scripture, though allusions are made since he is also interested in explaining myths. His interest is in explaining the physical events reported in myths. Many in science write them off as entirely fiction, yet his research into myths shows myths are often aligned to natural events that leave a dramatic impact upon a society. What happens, are storytellers and the like, not being able to explain what has happened by natural means resort to stories of deities and the like to explain such significant events. But fire balls and the like being thrown from the sky, or volcanoes erupting due to spirits or deities being angry, the natural events within such -- well we know better today.

Masse's ideas have been tested with evidence, make predictions, and as such aren't a hypothesis. Rather he puts forward what appears to me is a solid scientific theory that is supported by data. And, the theory has been published in journals and is becoming accepted as quite plausible within the scientific community.
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Re: The biblical flood date

Postby abelcainsbrother » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:14 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:Perhaps I shouldn't hav[url][/url]e used the word problem but from what I read above he seems to have a very similar way of explaining a world wide flood and so I was just wondering how he deals with the glacier ice that is over 100,000 years old and the ice would have had to have survived and remained intact until the flood waters receded. I actually am interested in the way he explains a world wide flood.

I haven't read Masse directly, although I'm interested to. The book I'm reading is Noah's Flood: Literal or Figurative by Ronald L Conte Jr. I don't agree with a lot of what was written, in fact was going to put the book down. But then, as he evaluates different ideas (e.g., Black Sea flood, Persian Gulf flood, etc) it starts getting quite interesting.

Based on chevrons found in Australia and Madagascar, Masse posits a comet hit in the Indian ocean. You merely follow the chevron directions back to where they meet, and they land in the Burckle crater in the Indian ocean. This explains various features found in myths from Africa, India, Southeast Asia and Australia. Myths of mega-tsunamis from Brazil, western coast of North America, the Arctic Ocean and in other locations outside the Indian Ocean basin though aren't explained. The presence also of hot or fiery water falling from the sky in several North and South American myths cannot have been caused by atmospheric re-entry ejecta from the Burckle Crater event, and in North America the flood storm comes from the north.

Masse concludes the comet in question likely broke apart (which isn't uncommon), so at least 2-3 fragments struck in different locations. In order to explain these other myths, none of which date earlier than around 2,500 BC or so, the other pieces would need to have been located in other oceans, one in the Atlantic and another in the Pacific. The date for the hit Masse calculates quite specifically to May 10, 2807 BC.

Note, that Masse isn't so much interested in Scripture, though allusions are made since he is also interested in explaining myths. His interest in in explaining the physical events reported in myths. Many in science write them off as entirely fiction, yet his research into myths shows myths are often aligned to natural events that leave a dramatic impact upon a society. What happens, are storytellers and the like, not being able to explain what has happened by natural means resort to stories of deities and the like to explain such significant events. But fire balls and the like being thrown from the sky, or volcanoes erupting due to spirits or deities being angry, the natural events within such -- well we know better today.

Masse's ideas have been tested with evidence, make predictions, and as such aren't a hypothesis. Rather he puts forward what appears to me is a solid theory that is supported by data. And, the theory has been published in journals and is becoming accepted as quite plausible within the scientific community.


Thanks for the info. What caught my attention is where he talks about a comet hitting the earth which caused hot heated water to spew out of the earth into the atmosphere which caused it to rain,which is very similar to the theory I go by except that it was not caused by a comet that the water spewed out of the earth but from geysers or like artesian wells that were the major source of the water that flooded the earth causing it to rain. As you may know the bible in several places indicates water is in the earth like Exodus 20:4 and this was thousands of years ago long before science knew how much is in the earth. I was thinking that since Masse's theory is similar I might could kind of join both what my source and Masse say about it to have more info to better be able to backup a world wide flood. But this ice is a kind of problem which is mostly why science rejects a world wide flood. Remember the Ken Ham vs Bill Nye debate? Bill Nye focused on glacier ice to debunk the idea of a world wide flood and Ken Ham didn't know about dust in the glacier ice sheets,oceans that shows there was a world wide drought about 4500 years ago that dates to the time of Noah's flood,which I believe was the results after the flood.I do have a way to make a case for how the glacier ice could have survived a world wide flood,which implies it would have been submerged under water until the water level receded but maybe Masse has a way also to explain how also.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.


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