Is secularism spreading?

[Audie]

There are many moderate Muslims, one can argue that the majority are moderates.
It makes the current state of Islam worse because of that, not better and the reason I say that is because it falls on the moderates to "keep" the extremists in line.
Every time a extremist Christian does something stupid like bomb an abortion clinic or come out and say that God hates homosexuals, it falls on us moderates to counter that hate with the true message of Christianity, and that is salvation through Christ and His commandment to love each other as He loved us.
And that is what we do.
When was the last time you hear or saw a moderate Muslim denounce radical and extremist Islam?

About the same time I heard or saw a Mod Christian do as you say.
Seriously, I cant think of a time. I expect this is for lack of paying attention, tho.

[melanie]

There are many moderate Muslims, one can argue that the majority are moderates.
It makes the current state of Islam worse because of that, not better and the reason I say that is because it falls on the moderates to "keep" the extremists in line.
Every time a extremist Christian does something stupid like bomb an abortion clinic or come out and say that God hates homosexuals, it falls on us moderates to counter that hate with the true message of Christianity, and that is salvation through Christ and His commandment to love each other as He loved us.
And that is what we do.
When was the last time you hear or saw a moderate Muslim denounce radical and extremist Islam?

All the time Paul.
I don't think the issue is them not speaking out because they are, but rather our prejudices to not hear or see it.
There are FB groups with tens of thousands of Muslims members along the lines of Muslims against terrorism, against ISIS, against extremists and the list goes on. There are active Muslim groups working within nearly country to combat extremism within Islam.
When the siege happened in Sydney the Muslim community were very vocal and active in denouncing Islamic extremism, they mourned with the community as a whole and were the loudest voice against the violence. They held vigils for the 2 people who died. They were sincere, and were as shocked and outraged as the rest of us.
FB was inundated with posts and comments form Muslims who expressed how deeply sorry they were, how this man was not a representation of the community as a whole. I was personally moved by their words. There was a desperation, a pleading to not paint them in the same light. I felt for them as it just threw fuel on the fire for all those people who already had hostility and intolerance towards the Muslim community. There were countless responses from Aussies who spewed out hate and bigotry towards these people who had shown such compassion and empathy. I was disgusted and really saddened. As a person who very rarely posts anything on FB, I do look at current issues and responses to get a feel for how the average Joe is thinking but this time I couldn't help but personally express my thoughts to these people, well a few of them and I reiterated exactly what they had been saying, which was please don't think we are all like that.
The way I look at it, these extremists are trying to produce fear and hatred and they are succeeding. I look at my friends, family and community and I have never seen or experienced in my lifetime this level of hatred. There is an us versus them mentality and that is coming from average Australians. They are getting abused and sworn at on public transport, their mosques are getting graffitied with racist slurs, some members of our government have absurdly tried to stop women wearing hajibs in parliament and even public places, security guards are being placed within Muslims school to protect the children, everyone has gone bat **** crazy!!
The extremists are winning, they are creating an enviroment of fear and hate within the hearts and minds of the everyday person. I'm not going to let them turn my heart cold against an entire faction of people. I am going to stand against extremist and terrorism whilst standing firmly for the Muslim community in peace and love.
The way to win this is to combat hate with love. I am not speaking of the extremist they need to be dealt with accordingly I am speaking of the moderate Muslims, they are suffering through this, people are suspicious and hateful of them.
There is a change happening and it scares me.
What is happening in Iraq, Syria scares me.
What is happening in my own backyard with this shift in mentality scares me too.

[PaulSacramento]

There are many moderate Muslims, one can argue that the majority are moderates.
It makes the current state of Islam worse because of that, not better and the reason I say that is because it falls on the moderates to "keep" the extremists in line.
Every time a extremist Christian does something stupid like bomb an abortion clinic or come out and say that God hates homosexuals, it falls on us moderates to counter that hate with the true message of Christianity, and that is salvation through Christ and His commandment to love each other as He loved us.
And that is what we do.
When was the last time you hear or saw a moderate Muslim denounce radical and extremist Islam?

About the same time I heard or saw a Mod Christian do as you say.
Seriously, I cant think of a time. I expect this is for lack of paying attention, tho.

Audie, there are dozens of Christian apologetic site that denounce Christian extremism, this is one of them of course and if you don't see on the news christian denoucing other christians doing violent acts, then you are not looking.

[PaulSacramento]

There are many moderate Muslims, one can argue that the majority are moderates.
It makes the current state of Islam worse because of that, not better and the reason I say that is because it falls on the moderates to "keep" the extremists in line.
Every time a extremist Christian does something stupid like bomb an abortion clinic or come out and say that God hates homosexuals, it falls on us moderates to counter that hate with the true message of Christianity, and that is salvation through Christ and His commandment to love each other as He loved us.
And that is what we do.
When was the last time you hear or saw a moderate Muslim denounce radical and extremist Islam?

All the time Paul.
I don't think the issue is them not speaking out because they are, but rather our prejudices to not hear or see it.
There are FB groups with tens of thousands of Muslims members along the lines of Muslims against terrorism, against ISIS, against extremists and the list goes on. There are active Muslim groups working within nearly country to combat extremism within Islam.
When the siege happened in Sydney the Muslim community were very vocal and active in denouncing Islamic extremism, they mourned with the community as a whole and were the loudest voice against the violence. They held vigils for the 2 people who died. They were sincere, and were as shocked and outraged as the rest of us.
FB was inundated with posts and comments form Muslims who expressed how deeply sorry they were, how this man was not a representation of the community as a whole. I was personally moved by their words. There was a desperation, a pleading to not paint them in the same light. I felt for them as it just threw fuel on the fire for all those people who already had hostility and intolerance towards the Muslim community. There were countless responses from Aussies who spewed out hate and bigotry towards these people who had shown such compassion and empathy. I was disgusted and really saddened. As a person who very rarely posts anything on FB, I do look at current issues and responses to get a feel for how the average Joe is thinking but this time I couldn't help but personally express my thoughts to these people, well a few of them and I reiterated exactly what they had been saying, which was please don't think we are all like that.
The way I look at it, these extremists are trying to produce fear and hatred and they are succeeding. I look at my friends, family and community and I have never seen or experienced in my lifetime this level of hatred. There is an us versus them mentality and that is coming from average Australians. They are getting abused and sworn at on public transport, their mosques are getting graffitied with racist slurs, some members of our government have absurdly tried to stop women wearing hajibs in parliament and even public places, security guards are being placed within Muslims school to protect the children, everyone has gone bat **** crazy!!
The extremists are winning, they are creating an enviroment of fear and hate within the hearts and minds of the everyday person. I'm not going to let them turn my heart cold against an entire faction of people. I am going to stand against extremist and terrorism whilst standing firmly for the Muslim community in peace and love.
The way to win this is to combat hate with love. I am not speaking of the extremist they need to be dealt with accordingly I am speaking of the moderate Muslims, they are suffering through this, people are suspicious and hateful of them.
There is a change happening and it scares me.
What is happening in Iraq, Syria scares me.
What is happening in my own backyard with this shift in mentality scares me too.

Sorry but that is simply not the same thing.
Allow me to put it this way:
What are Muslim moderates DOING about the extremists?
This is nothing new of course since Islam has a history of violent expansion and conquest.
If moderate muslims to NOT do something about the extremists, the rest of the world will eventually do what they feel they have to.

[melanie]

There are many moderate Muslims, one can argue that the majority are moderates.
It makes the current state of Islam worse because of that, not better and the reason I say that is because it falls on the moderates to "keep" the extremists in line.
Every time a extremist Christian does something stupid like bomb an abortion clinic or come out and say that God hates homosexuals, it falls on us moderates to counter that hate with the true message of Christianity, and that is salvation through Christ and His commandment to love each other as He loved us.
And that is what we do.
When was the last time you hear or saw a moderate Muslim denounce radical and extremist Islam?

All the time Paul.
I don't think the issue is them not speaking out because they are, but rather our prejudices to not hear or see it.
There are FB groups with tens of thousands of Muslims members along the lines of Muslims against terrorism, against ISIS, against extremists and the list goes on. There are active Muslim groups working within nearly country to combat extremism within Islam.
When the siege happened in Sydney the Muslim community were very vocal and active in denouncing Islamic extremism, they mourned with the community as a whole and were the loudest voice against the violence. They held vigils for the 2 people who died. They were sincere, and were as shocked and outraged as the rest of us.
FB was inundated with posts and comments form Muslims who expressed how deeply sorry they were, how this man was not a representation of the community as a whole. I was personally moved by their words. There was a desperation, a pleading to not paint them in the same light. I felt for them as it just threw fuel on the fire for all those people who already had hostility and intolerance towards the Muslim community. There were countless responses from Aussies who spewed out hate and bigotry towards these people who had shown such compassion and empathy. I was disgusted and really saddened. As a person who very rarely posts anything on FB, I do look at current issues and responses to get a feel for how the average Joe is thinking but this time I couldn't help but personally express my thoughts to these people, well a few of them and I reiterated exactly what they had been saying, which was please don't think we are all like that.
The way I look at it, these extremists are trying to produce fear and hatred and they are succeeding. I look at my friends, family and community and I have never seen or experienced in my lifetime this level of hatred. There is an us versus them mentality and that is coming from average Australians. They are getting abused and sworn at on public transport, their mosques are getting graffitied with racist slurs, some members of our government have absurdly tried to stop women wearing hajibs in parliament and even public places, security guards are being placed within Muslims school to protect the children, everyone has gone bat **** crazy!!
The extremists are winning, they are creating an enviroment of fear and hate within the hearts and minds of the everyday person. I'm not going to let them turn my heart cold against an entire faction of people. I am going to stand against extremist and terrorism whilst standing firmly for the Muslim community in peace and love.
The way to win this is to combat hate with love. I am not speaking of the extremist they need to be dealt with accordingly I am speaking of the moderate Muslims, they are suffering through this, people are suspicious and hateful of them.
There is a change happening and it scares me.
What is happening in Iraq, Syria scares me.
What is happening in my own backyard with this shift in mentality scares me too.

Sorry but that is simply not the same thing.
Allow me to put it this way:
What are Muslim moderates DOING about the extremists?
This is nothing new of course since Islam has a history of violent expansion and conquest.
If moderate muslims to NOT do something about the extremists, the rest of the world will eventually do what they feel they have to.

You are aware I hope that the men fighting on the front lines in Iraq against Isis are Muslims. They are scared for their children, for their future and are dying to protect them from the threat of Isis. Ask them what they are doing, they are risking their lives everyday.
Off the frontline they are holding rallies, being active within the schools.
Do you think a Muslim mother or father wants their son to join an extremist group?
In Australia right now they are putting in place measures within schools to combat online propaganda to try and stop these young men joining Isis, the Muslim community is on board, they are scared, they do not want their boys being brainwashed and running off to join and dying.
Working with the Muslim community not against them is going to achieve a lot more to combat this.
Let's be part of the solution not part of the problem.

[Philip]

This is an interesting question. First off, what CAN rein in radical Islamists - as, what do they respect or respond to, these people who are willing to butcher fellow Muslims over differences of opinion in authority and power, supposedly originating in interpretations over theology, but mostly, group traditions, history, politics, tribalism, with all ultimately rooted in the Qur'an / tied to Islam? I'll tell you what the radicals respect: POWER! They respect those with the ability and the means to militarily stand up to them. Mere words from moderate Muslims will NOT stop or deter their individual or collective agendas. And the BIGGEST problem is that the ultimate guide of all Muslims, whatever their interpretive tradition, is rooted in the wording of the Qur'an - a demonically inspired work packed with lies and evil exhortations! And those who take its meanings logically and verbatim are overwhelmingly radical. So, how do you correct evil if your faith ("moderate" Islam) is one that is nonetheless ultimately anti-God / Jesus? What's your rationale for what such moderate Muslims can do, spiritually that can change the radicals minds? And, militarily, what MUST they do if the CAN'T change the hearts and minds of the radicals? Because the radicals will eat the so-called moderates alive if they aren't defeated. Of course, in the radical camp, there are many divisions (http://www.newsweek.com/struggle-betwee ... ned-291419) that will ultimately fight it out as well - whilst they all also oppose Christians and the West.

[PaulSacramento]

There are many moderate Muslims, one can argue that the majority are moderates.
It makes the current state of Islam worse because of that, not better and the reason I say that is because it falls on the moderates to "keep" the extremists in line.
Every time a extremist Christian does something stupid like bomb an abortion clinic or come out and say that God hates homosexuals, it falls on us moderates to counter that hate with the true message of Christianity, and that is salvation through Christ and His commandment to love each other as He loved us.
And that is what we do.
When was the last time you hear or saw a moderate Muslim denounce radical and extremist Islam?

All the time Paul.
I don't think the issue is them not speaking out because they are, but rather our prejudices to not hear or see it.
There are FB groups with tens of thousands of Muslims members along the lines of Muslims against terrorism, against ISIS, against extremists and the list goes on. There are active Muslim groups working within nearly country to combat extremism within Islam.
When the siege happened in Sydney the Muslim community were very vocal and active in denouncing Islamic extremism, they mourned with the community as a whole and were the loudest voice against the violence. They held vigils for the 2 people who died. They were sincere, and were as shocked and outraged as the rest of us.
FB was inundated with posts and comments form Muslims who expressed how deeply sorry they were, how this man was not a representation of the community as a whole. I was personally moved by their words. There was a desperation, a pleading to not paint them in the same light. I felt for them as it just threw fuel on the fire for all those people who already had hostility and intolerance towards the Muslim community. There were countless responses from Aussies who spewed out hate and bigotry towards these people who had shown such compassion and empathy. I was disgusted and really saddened. As a person who very rarely posts anything on FB, I do look at current issues and responses to get a feel for how the average Joe is thinking but this time I couldn't help but personally express my thoughts to these people, well a few of them and I reiterated exactly what they had been saying, which was please don't think we are all like that.
The way I look at it, these extremists are trying to produce fear and hatred and they are succeeding. I look at my friends, family and community and I have never seen or experienced in my lifetime this level of hatred. There is an us versus them mentality and that is coming from average Australians. They are getting abused and sworn at on public transport, their mosques are getting graffitied with racist slurs, some members of our government have absurdly tried to stop women wearing hajibs in parliament and even public places, security guards are being placed within Muslims school to protect the children, everyone has gone bat **** crazy!!
The extremists are winning, they are creating an enviroment of fear and hate within the hearts and minds of the everyday person. I'm not going to let them turn my heart cold against an entire faction of people. I am going to stand against extremist and terrorism whilst standing firmly for the Muslim community in peace and love.
The way to win this is to combat hate with love. I am not speaking of the extremist they need to be dealt with accordingly I am speaking of the moderate Muslims, they are suffering through this, people are suspicious and hateful of them.
There is a change happening and it scares me.
What is happening in Iraq, Syria scares me.
What is happening in my own backyard with this shift in mentality scares me too.

Sorry but that is simply not the same thing.
Allow me to put it this way:
What are Muslim moderates DOING about the extremists?
This is nothing new of course since Islam has a history of violent expansion and conquest.
If moderate muslims to NOT do something about the extremists, the rest of the world will eventually do what they feel they have to.

You are aware I hope that the men fighting on the front lines in Iraq against Isis are Muslims. They are scared for their children, for their future and are dying to protect them from the threat of Isis. Ask them what they are doing, they are risking their lives everyday.
Off the frontline they are holding rallies, being active within the schools.
Do you think a Muslim mother or father wants their son to join an extremist group?
In Australia right now they are putting in place measures within schools to combat online propaganda to try and stop these young men joining Isis, the Muslim community is on board, they are scared, they do not want their boys being brainwashed and running off to join and dying.
Working with the Muslim community not against them is going to achieve a lot more to combat this.
Let's be part of the solution not part of the problem.

You are missing the point Melaine, if moderate muslims don't do something soon, WE WILL be part of the solution.
It just won't be the solution that the muslm word will be happy with.
Have you seen what is going on in Europe already ?

[Audie]

Invading Iraq was SO part of the solution.

[PaulSacramento]

Invading Iraq was SO part of the solution.

Military action is never the best case scenario and Iraq had ZERO to do with Islam.

[Audie]

Its like Vietnam, or WW!, American civil war, they still argue what those were about

[Mallz]

Inform yourselves as to what Islam is before casting such naive judgements. If you don't know it is the antithesis to Christianity, if that is a new statement to you, you don't know what you're talking about.
Know who is Muslim and is not, just like you need to know who is Christian and who is not so you can spot a wolf.
Read what they believe and are waiting for.
Follow what the majority of Muslims are saying and doing in their home lands.
'Extremest' Muslims are normal Muslims following their religion.
Moderate Muslims as you put it, disobey their prophet and allah and only exist in western countries.
Again, there are no 'moderate' Muslims and you insult the majority of the Muslim world by stating such.
The 'moderate' Muslims you know, again, are not Muslims.
Just like any Christian who doesn't believe/follow Jesus, is not a Christian.
If you quack and waddle like a duck, you are a duck. If you wear a duck suite, you are not a duck no matter how much you say you are or try to look like one.
Listen to what I'm saying instead of injecting meaning into my words which is not there.

[Kurieuo]

There are many moderate Muslims, one can argue that the majority are moderates.
It makes the current state of Islam worse because of that, not better and the reason I say that is because it falls on the moderates to "keep" the extremists in line.
Every time a extremist Christian does something stupid like bomb an abortion clinic or come out and say that God hates homosexuals, it falls on us moderates to counter that hate with the true message of Christianity, and that is salvation through Christ and His commandment to love each other as He loved us.
And that is what we do.
When was the last time you hear or saw a moderate Muslim denounce radical and extremist Islam?

About the same time I heard or saw a Mod Christian do as you say.
Seriously, I cant think of a time. I expect this is for lack of paying attention, tho.

Or how about a Mod Atheist? Pretense does not count.

For example, I'm talking about Dawkins who says at an Atheist convention to ridicule and show contempt to religious people.
Then an Atheist "extremist" goes and kills three young Muslims. And then Dawkins and Harris distance themselves when an Atheist goes and kills someone for their religion?

[Audie]

There are many moderate Muslims, one can argue that the majority are moderates.
It makes the current state of Islam worse because of that, not better and the reason I say that is because it falls on the moderates to "keep" the extremists in line.
Every time a extremist Christian does something stupid like bomb an abortion clinic or come out and say that God hates homosexuals, it falls on us moderates to counter that hate with the true message of Christianity, and that is salvation through Christ and His commandment to love each other as He loved us.
And that is what we do.
When was the last time you hear or saw a moderate Muslim denounce radical and extremist Islam?

About the same time I heard or saw a Mod Christian do as you say.
Seriously, I cant think of a time. I expect this is for lack of paying attention, tho.

Or how about a Mod Atheist? Pretense does not count.

For example, I'm talking about Dawkins who says at an Atheist convention to ridicule and show contempt to religious people.
Then an Atheist "extremist" goes and kills three young Muslims. And then Dawkins and Harris distance themselves when an Atheist goes and kills someone for their religion?

Atheist religion. Seriously? I sorta thought you were a few notches above that.

[RickD]

There are many moderate Muslims, one can argue that the majority are moderates.
It makes the current state of Islam worse because of that, not better and the reason I say that is because it falls on the moderates to "keep" the extremists in line.
Every time a extremist Christian does something stupid like bomb an abortion clinic or come out and say that God hates homosexuals, it falls on us moderates to counter that hate with the true message of Christianity, and that is salvation through Christ and His commandment to love each other as He loved us.
And that is what we do.
When was the last time you hear or saw a moderate Muslim denounce radical and extremist Islam?

About the same time I heard or saw a Mod Christian do as you say.
Seriously, I cant think of a time. I expect this is for lack of paying attention, tho.

Or how about a Mod Atheist? Pretense does not count.

For example, I'm talking about Dawkins who says at an Atheist convention to ridicule and show contempt to religious people.
Then an Atheist "extremist" goes and kills three young Muslims. And then Dawkins and Harris distance themselves when an Atheist goes and kills someone for their religion?

Atheist religion. Seriously? I sorta thought you were a few notches above that.

And here is where K, if he was Audie, would fly off the handle saying you were making things up about him, and call on moderators to intervene, and call the FBI, CIA, and the SWAT team!

K was referring to atheists killing people for their religion. Not the atheists' religion. The people's religion who the atheists killed!
See? Even the almighty Audie misreads other people's words!

[Kurieuo]

There are many moderate Muslims, one can argue that the majority are moderates.
It makes the current state of Islam worse because of that, not better and the reason I say that is because it falls on the moderates to "keep" the extremists in line.
Every time a extremist Christian does something stupid like bomb an abortion clinic or come out and say that God hates homosexuals, it falls on us moderates to counter that hate with the true message of Christianity, and that is salvation through Christ and His commandment to love each other as He loved us.
And that is what we do.
When was the last time you hear or saw a moderate Muslim denounce radical and extremist Islam?

About the same time I heard or saw a Mod Christian do as you say.
Seriously, I cant think of a time. I expect this is for lack of paying attention, tho.

Or how about a Mod Atheist? Pretense does not count.

For example, I'm talking about Dawkins who says at an Atheist convention to ridicule and show contempt to religious people.
Then an Atheist "extremist" goes and kills three young Muslims. And then Dawkins and Harris distance themselves when an Atheist goes and kills someone for their religion?

Atheist religion. Seriously? I sorta thought you were a few notches above that.

Ideology, religion, same schtick.