Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
You can be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist. The terms are all used in different ways by different authorities, but a common definition of agnosticism is "the belief that the truth value of a given statement is unknown or unknowable".
An agnostic theist has a personal belief in a god, but philosophically they believe that their belief is not objectively verifiable (though of course others will use the label agnostic theist to mean something else, and still others will see it as a contradiction in terms).
PerciFlage wrote:That's my stance too - the atheism I had in mind when drawing my venn chart was the "I do believe god doesn't exist" kind. Even then, though, it would be possible for someone to be a hardline atheist as well as a deist or a spiritualist, but mapping all that out on a diagram is more than I can accomplish in five minutes with MS Word.
I generally opt for the label of agnostic if pushed, because in most people's minds atheism is exclusively of the hardline, Richard Dawkins kind.
I don't agree that in most people's minds atheism is a positive belief, not in the minds of atheists anyway. All atheists don't believe in the existence of gods, but not all atheists believe gods don't exist.
I've been pondering over what simplistic label you could attach to me, and I was thinking perhaps some form of fallibilism. Also, depending on "definitions", I consider myself ignostic/noncognitivist.
I sort of agree with the tenets of ignosticism in a limited and technical sense, but I have quite a large number of religious friends who do have fairly concrete concepts of the nature of the god(s) they believe in. The concepts don't always agree from one friend to another, and they aren't always discussable in strictly objective terms, but I enjoy discussing them too much to opt for the label of ignostic for myself.
Like I said, it depends. Some concepts are drowned in anthropomorphisation, so much so that God might as well be a reality jumping Superman (perhaps with his underpants on the inside, though). The other problem is of course language and the ability to communicate the concept. Any attempt will be tarnished and pander to naturalism, as that is what language and communication is based in.
All atheists don't believe in the existence of gods, but not all atheists believe gods don't exist.
Since I don't see the difference, could someone explain it to me. It looks exactly the same to me.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
All atheists don't believe in the existence of gods, but not all atheists believe gods don't exist.
Since I don't see the difference, could someone explain it to me. It looks exactly the same to me.
One is "I don't believe in God", the other is "I believe God doesn't exist".
What rubberneck wrote makes no logical sense:
If all atheists don't believe in the existence of gods, then it follows that all atheists believe gods don't exist.
There is essentially no difference between these two statements:
1). All atheists don't believe in the existence of gods.
Or to say the same thing:
2). All atheists believe gods don't exist.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
All atheists don't believe in the existence of gods, but not all atheists believe gods don't exist.
Since I don't see the difference, could someone explain it to me. It looks exactly the same to me.
One is "I don't believe in God", the other is "I believe God doesn't exist".
What rubberneck wrote makes no logical sense:
If all atheists don't believe in the existence of gods, then it follows that all atheists believe gods don't exist.
There is essentially no difference between these two statements:
1). All atheists don't believe in the existence of gods.
Or to say the same thing:
2). All atheists believe gods don't exist.
No, it doesn't follow. As I've said, not believing in one thing does not automatically mean you believe the opposite. The belief that gods don't exist is a positive claim which requires justification, while not believing gods exist is just sticking to the null hypothesis. While it's to be acknowledged that one proposition must be true, if there's currently not enough information for either proposition, then neither have to be believed.
I'll ask you; in total, do you believe that you have an even number of hairs on your head?
All atheists don't believe in the existence of gods, but not all atheists believe gods don't exist.
Since I don't see the difference, could someone explain it to me. It looks exactly the same to me.
One is "I don't believe in God", the other is "I believe God doesn't exist".
What rubberneck wrote makes no logical sense:
If all atheists don't believe in the existence of gods, then it follows that all atheists believe gods don't exist.
There is essentially no difference between these two statements:
1). All atheists don't believe in the existence of gods.
Or to say the same thing:
2). All atheists believe gods don't exist.
No, it doesn't follow. As I've said, not believing in one thing does not automatically mean you believe the opposite. The belief that gods don't exist is a positive claim which requires justification, while not believing gods exist is just sticking to the null hypothesis. While it's to be acknowledged that one proposition must be true, if there's currently not enough information for either proposition, then neither have to be believed.
I'll ask you; in total, do you believe that you have an even number of hairs on your head?
No, it doesn't follow. As I've said, not believing in one thing does not automatically mean you believe the opposite.
But they're not opposites. They're the same.
Let's make it simpler so you can see the two statements are the same:
1). Atheists don't believe God exists.
2). Atheists believe God doesn't exist.
It sounds like a way to avoid claiming a belief. That way one can criticize other beliefs, without having to defend one's own.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
RickD wrote:
But they're not opposites. They're the same.
Let's make it simpler so you can see the two statements are the same:
1). Atheists don't believe God exists.
2). Atheists believe God doesn't exist.
It sounds like a way to avoid claiming a belief. That way one can criticize other beliefs, without having to defend one's own.
They are not the same. I don't know how to express it any clearer than I already have done. There is no avoidance here and you're basically accusing me of lying. I don't believe gods don't exist, it's that simple.
So do you believe that in total you have an even number of hairs on your head?
Rubberneck, do you just don't have any belief system then? You don't believe God doesn't exist. Seems I could then say you believe God exists. But obviously you don't believe that. So you have no belief. ? I don't understand how someone cannot have a belief. You either believe God exists, or you believe He does not. I suppose the alternative is to say, I don't know. Which is my answer to your hair question. I don't know if they're even or odd. So when I ask, do you believe God exists? Do you answer I don't know? If that is your answer, then do you agree with the statement: you don't believe God exists?
ryanbouma wrote:Rubberneck, do you just don't have any belief system then? You don't believe God doesn't exist. Seems I could then say you believe God exists. But obviously you don't believe that. So you have no belief. ? I don't understand how someone cannot have a belief. You either believe God exists, or you believe He does not. I suppose the alternative is to say, I don't know. Which is my answer to your hair question. I don't know if they're even or odd. So when I ask, do you believe God exists? Do you answer I don't know? If that is your answer, then do you agree with the statement: you don't believe God exists?
The alternative is to not believe either. This isn't a question of knowledge, but belief.
If you say you don't know to my hair question, then you're not answering the question. I asked whether you believe there are an even number, not if you knew there was. So do you believe they're an even number, an odd number, or do you basically not believe either because you don't have the relevant information to make decision either way?
I believe I have hair, even though I have not seen my scalp. It could be fake. But I do not know certain things about my hair. I don't know the average thickness. How many are grey. Even or odd. Etc.
We know there is or is not a God. So which do you believe it is?
Do you believe:
1. There is no God.
2. There is a God.
It's ok if you don't know what he looks like or how many hairs are on His head (assuming He has hair (unlikely)).
