Apologetics list project

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Apologetics list project

#1

Post by DRDS » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:44 pm

Hi all, I'm currently working on a apologetics chart or list of arguments for Christian Theism. Also since I'm someone who isn't afraid of arguments and evidences from atheists, I've done a chart for naturalism as well. Now I don't necessarily want you all to discuss the specific arguments and evidences on the list. What mostly want is suggestions as far as anything I could have left out or should take out of both lists. Let me know if there is anything you want me to add or get rid of from the Christian Theism list and likewise for the naturalism list. I hope to later use this as a good way to dialogue with nonbelievers about the truthfulness of Christianity. So without further a due I look forward to seeing what you all want me to add or take away. God bless you guys.

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Re: Apologetics list project

#2

Post by Gman » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:38 am

DRDS wrote:Also since I'm someone who isn't afraid of arguments and evidences from atheists, I've done a chart for naturalism as well.
No one should be afraid of the atheists beliefs systems. Distinguishing between macro and micro evolution is the key to understanding where the rift is..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Apologetics list project

#3

Post by DRDS » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:12 am

Yes exactly, I agree. Anyway, I'm going to post the project shortly.

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Re: Apologetics list project

#4

Post by DRDS » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:13 am

Case for atheistic naturalism (if I were an atheist this would be my case)

Origin of the universe: Either a universe coming from nothing by nothing (like what Stephen Hawking describes) or a eternal universe much like what Roger Penrose describes. Also if any evidence comes forth for a multiverse then it would of course push the question back to where did the multiverse or universe creating mechanism come from and I would just say it either came from nothing by nothing or has existed eternally. A third possible option would be it was caused somehow by some natural force or process but the how and what about that natural process is speculative at best.(currently have no solid observable evidence)

Origin of life: Life either came from a primordial soup originating on earth or life came to earth somewhere else in the universe. Another option would be that the universe is filled with life and on planets much like earth it either happens regularly by chemical reactions and or allows life to flourish and thrive. (give Miller experiment or evidence of the life on Mars as possible evidence of life originating naturalistically)

Origin of complex life forms: They develop by a form of neodarwinian evolution. They happen by mutation,adaptation,and natural selection, either slow and gradual or in small steps or in big leaps with little to know fossil evidence (punctuated equilibrium)
(best evidence for neodarwinian macro evolution would be microevolution, mtDNA, Endogenous retroviruses, genetic similarities, and the few pieces of fossil evidence that "may" show signs of intermediates)

Philosophical arguments for atheism and naturalism:

The problem of evil

The problem of pain

The problem of "innocent" people going to hell who had never heard about Christ

Dealing with the claims of Christianity and the Bible -

adhere to the arguments that legends developed about Christ or that the disciples were carried away by their emotions or their imaginations about Christ's miracles and resurrection

Claim and argue that even though we may have good evidence for the people and places for the Bible, that the fact that miracles cannot occur since we have never witnessed them in modern times and they are just so hard to grasp with a modern "rational" mind that they must not have happened.

other argument responses

from meaning and purpose: Say that meaning and purpose are meaningless and that the desire for meaning and purpose and it's by product religion are just products of natural selection.

from ndes or arguments for the soul: Say that they are tricks played on our brains to give us comfort and thus prolong survival.

evidence of Christianity's growth and challenged lives: Say that Christianity grew and people's lives were changed because Christianity gives people who believe it a hope for a afterlife and for a purpose thus aiding survival.

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Re: Apologetics list project

#5

Post by DRDS » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:14 am

List case for Christian Theism


Cosmological argument:

The big bang indicates that the universe had a beginning, it had a cause and lack of evidence from naturalists indicate it to be a personal cause outside of time and space. Also the question, "why is there something rather than nothing?" Gives additional philosophical weight to this argument.

Teleological argument:

Since living things appear to be intricately designed, even more designed than today's modern machines like cars and computers. Not to mention where dna appears to function just like a computer program. And the fact that it would be very difficult if not almost impossible as far as the amount of time and creative ability for natural forces, mutations (which are mostly natural or negative) and natural selection to create.

Ontological argument:

Since people can think up the concept of God and God is the greatest possible concept that human beings can think of, therefore God exists.

Moral argument:

Because most people over the years hold to some kind of moral law and because nearly every culture holds to some kind of moral absolutes (such as, torturing babies for fun is wrong) and the fact we have consciences therefore objective moral values exist, therefore God exists.

Fine tuning argument:

Because the earth is fine tuned and the universe seems to be finely tuned to allow for our existence and there is such a long list of things that have to be letter perfect and just right to allow for our existence, therefore this indicates purpose in the universe and the idea that someone had our future existence in mind before the universe came into existence. Therefore God exists.

Argument from biblical archeology:

Since archeology continues to uncover more artifacts about the people, places and events of the Bible and since archeology has yet to prove the Bible wrong in any major key area but instead agrees with therefore this gives credence that the Bible is right about everything it says.


Argument for the existence of Jesus (as a historical figure)

Since we have a lot of evidence from both the New Testament and evidences from non biblical sources about Jesus's existence and the existence of the early Christian church and just the early explosion of the Christian church itself, therefore Christ did indeed exist as a historical figure. This also indicates that since the church was able to exist and expand like they did early on gives good credence that the miracles do happen and the Bible is true about reality.

Minimal facts argument for Jesus resurrection (Habermas's argument for the resurrection)

Since nearly all scholars both liberal and conservative agree about Jesus's existence, ministry, crucifixion, death and the fact that Christ's disciples claimed to have seen the risen Jesus and the fact that all natural alternatives to Christ's resurrection (ie swoon theory, legend theory, mass hallucination theory to name a few) all fail at not explaining away all of the facts therefore it appears that Christ did indeed rise from the dead.


Shroud of Turin argument:

Since there exists a cloth featuring a 3d image of a crucified victim with blood stains and whip marks. And the fact that there was no way for a midlevel artist to create such a image (which bears no sign of being a painting). And since the latest research indicates that the 1988 dating experiment was done on a section of the cloth that was repaired during the midlevel ages due to fire damage (and as you work your way up on that cut piece, the uppermost portion of the piece gives a later date as early as 1700 years ago to 3000 years ago, and a conservative estimation thus could very likely put it at 2000 years ago. *This argument isn't necessarily needed but if the facts later do go the right way, it would be a great additional piece of evidence in favor of Christian Theism.


Near Death experiences:

Since there have been many reports over the last fifty years or so for people who have been clinically dead for minutes and a few for an hour or more and later came back to describe their experience of being in another world whether it be heaven or hell. Since the best naturalistic explanations cannot currently explain the best nde accounts, this gives good argument for the existence of a afterlife and of the human soul.

Purpose and meaning argument:

Since human beings long for a sense of purpose and a afterlife and the fact that we do not feel "at home" with the implications of naturalism (ie no afterlife, no purpose, no objective morality) it therefore gives indication that there must be something out there than can quench of longings for purpose and meaning.


*One of my OWN arguments, which is a atheist challenge type argument*

If atheists one day can successfully defeat Christian Theism and Theism all together (as in rebut and honestly and thoroughly disprove all traditional arguments and evidences for Theism and Christianity, de convert nearly all Christians and Christian apologists) and show that naturalism indeed has all the evidence in it's favor, how will the best atheist thinkers and atheism as a whole be able to keep humanity from collapsing and either committing mass suicide and go into moral and social chaos in terms of just dealing with implications of naturalism such as no meaning, no objective morality, no objective human value, no afterlife, no ultimate or real justification for evil and suffering. How would atheism pacify people? So far as I'm writing this, I have no good idea as to how atheists would do it, and from what little I've heard from atheists regarding this, it looks like they are not trying to step up to the plate to answer that challenge. And in ways, they seem to give no desire to answer it. And since they don't even desire to answer the challenge, they thus don't give any regard to human feelings and to innermost human desires like purpose and meaning. Since they don't give any regard to this challenge and to human desires, purpose and meaning it shows they are very lazy and sloppy with their work. And if they appear to be very lazy and sloppy in their work it shows that maybe we shouldn't trust their arguments and evidences that they use to validate their atheism

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Re: Apologetics list project

#6

Post by Reactionary » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:39 am

My vote goes to Christian Theism :mrgreen:
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6

"For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." Romans 1:20

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Re: Apologetics list project

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Post by Telstra Robs » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:59 pm

http://www.drjbloom.com/public%20files/PubTheoData.pdf

I found that VERY interesting. It lists in detail many of the fulfilled prophecies concerning Israel, the nations around and even a prophecy that successfully predicted the seven year period in which Jesus would die!

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Re: Apologetics list project

#8

Post by neo-x » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:44 am

For Christian Theism
Ontological argument:

Since people can think up the concept of God and God is the greatest possible concept that human beings can think of, therefore God exists.

Moral argument:

Because most people over the years hold to some kind of moral law and because nearly every culture holds to some kind of moral absolutes (such as, torturing babies for fun is wrong) and the fact we have consciences therefore objective moral values exist, therefore God exists.
I would not add the above two arguments, since both of these are arbitrary in their nature and lack any conclusive statements. you can put them in a suportive state but nothing to start a debate on.
Cosmological argument:

The big bang indicates that the universe had a beginning, it had a cause and lack of evidence from naturalists indicate it to be a personal cause outside of time and space. Also the question, "why is there something rather than nothing?" Gives additional philosophical weight to this argument.
You may also add that science is still not decisive about the origins (they haven't decided even if there was a starting point or not and if there were if would be rendered void since it happened before time 0, but when was time zero? is again a thing on the paper, Stephen Hawking book explains it in detail in "A brief history of time") and not even the time of Big Bang as well as the origins of the universe, in fact this can go as a direct anti-thesis to the Atheist's "Origin of Universe" argument.

Also you may add the point about evolution, that no one has not witnessed it. we have witnessed to some extent, extinction. but not evolution. Whether it is an ongoing process or simply a matter of one rarest (for that matter, one second in 5 billion years) moment. If it was the rarest, what caused it? if it is continuous why haven't we witnessed it. an atheist would probably reply that it takes hundreds and thousands of years and one person in a life time of 100 years will probably not witness it. an anti argument cud then be put forward that, since recorded history the creatures displayed, whether in cave paintings or old historical books are in todays world, either extinct (dinosaurs) or the same (no evolution). if the atheist can point one or two examples even (if there are any, that is) it can not support his argument since science it self believes to have millions of species (flora or fauna) that have gone extinct and the current studies contemporary living forms do not provide any evidence at all of evolution. not to mention the millions of organisms that are in deep ocean and still aren't classified or discovered, which only hints that science has to yet to gather data to form the complete picture and one can not conclusively rely on it.

plus a very basic kind of analogy that I found somewhere, i am stating below that you may find useful:

"An Atheist and a Christian are to debate, the problem is that the Christian gets late by 3 hours. When the Christian finally arrives the atheist obviously complains and asks the Judges to forfeit the debate in his favor since he was there on time and the Christian was not. to this the Christian replies "Respected Judges, I had planned to be here on time but unfortunately when I came to the river, I could not find a single boat to ferry me to the other side. so I started waiting, sitting by the bank of the river. All of a sudden, a large tree fell down in front of my eyes. In some time the wood started to change shape. it sculpted and took form slowly and slowly. The carvings became apparent so much that in 2 hours i had a perfect boat in front of me which even had oars and so I jumped in and headed straight for here. thus I got late."

to this the atheist laughed loudly and said "Obviously you don't think that we are going to buy this lie of yours, since we know this cant happen unless someone can make this happen. It is illogical and even a child will know this." And at this moment the Christian was announced as the winner of the debate."


pretty basic and childish but I foundit a very nice example of the fallacy of the atheist argument.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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