The complexity of life, Proof of God?

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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The complexity of life, Proof of God?

#1

Post by Gabrielman » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:15 pm

Kristoffer wrote:
CeT-To wrote:sorry to butt in the convo but if i may ask a question.. Why were dinasaurs created?
so that god could play Epic Real time strategy against satin.

But seriously, they just evolved to Survive, all things Evolve to survive better and pass on genes. Basically life Revolves around a molecule. A molecule that has the sole purpose of copying itself, over and over again. That is what the facts point to anyway, I would really love to find some cold hard evidence that pointed to god and not just to evolution, but so far I have nothing. The mere desire does not make it true, but it is a spur to keep searching.
Hey Kristoffer, I hope you don't mind, but I have been wanting to dialogue with you and so since the other evolution thread became somewhat of a battle ground, I was hoping you and I could talk on a new thread, so I quoted your post.

To start with your first one, I would rather it be an RPG than and RTS :P but eh. (and it isn't satin.... it's satan... not that anyone cares, as he is a jerk)

Well to start evolution is not the process in which things change just to survive. The basic premise of evolution is only the strong survive in a world of random mutations called decent with modification. Now so far as life revolving around a molecule and it coping itself, you must ask yourself this, how and why is that molecule alive to begin with, and furthermore, how does it know to duplicate itself? In essence all we are made of is protons, neutrons, and electrons. As is everything in the universe. So why are ours any better? Why are ours different, or in other words, why are the subatomic particles that comprise us alive, and yet others are not? Why does a bullet to the brain stop them from living, and yet one to the foot may not? That is my basic question to you. As without that evolution could not have happened to begin with. But let's continue on for now.

The basic structure of life is the DNA and RNA structures. The are the building blocks of life and without them we would not be here talking about this. Now in order to make my points better I am going to include an image.
[The below picture is from //www.drpeterjdadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl?act ... _%28DNA%29 ]
Image


Now take a look at the above image. It details in a chemical structure the DNA and RNA. First let me break down each Nitrogen base for easy reference. They are Purines and Pyrimidines. The Purines are Adenine Image and Guanine Image and are identified by by the rings of 5 carbon and 4 nitrogen. I put the pics of each snipped from above next to them for you to see. They are accompanied by and attached to corresponding nitrogen bases called Pyrimidines. They are as follows, Cytosine Image Thymine and Uracil Image (the Uracil replaces the Thymine in RNA) and they have 4 carbon and 2 nitrogen.

Now the Purines are connected to the Pyrimidines by a hydrogen bond and they have a sugar phosphate back bone, which is the deoxyribose part of DNA and the ribose part of RNA. The complex structures you see above are, in essence, nothing more than carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, and phosphorus. They are carefully combined through chemical reactions to build DNA. Each chemical binds to the other in a seemingly artistic fashion to form this building block, without aid, or help, from any intelligent source... or do they? Why would they form in such a way? Why would sugar phosphate groups bind with nitrogen bases that are paired up as base pairs (I am putting this in a simple way, it is really more complex than that), and form the double helix of DNA? Why would these structures come together? And better yet, why would they then be the instructions for all of the cells in our bodies on how they should operate? Why would they be alive? What would prompt this? I have included the picture and what I have to show you the basic, very basic complexity of our base building blocks of life. Without DNA and RNA, life isn't possible. Period.

Okay, so how does this tie into evolution? Look at the above structures of DNA and RNA, look at the complexity they have, look at how they formed. Now ask yourself this, how could this have evolved? You may think this has nothing to do with evolution, and yet it does. Evolution is dependent on random mutations, and those happen via the copying of DNA and RNA during cell division (though mutations can also happen from other sources, but let's keep it basic for now ;) ) So DNA is vital to evolution. Now since DNA is our genetic "make up" so to speak, it determines everything about us. Our eye color, hair color, how many arms and legs we have.... you get the picture. So when DNA mutates, the organism will most likely change. Now what are the chances that the change (mutation) will be for the better? And will it survive if the mutation is negative? Let me quote you a paragraph from the book "More Than A Theory" by Hugh Ross:
Hugh Ross wrote: Geneticists observe that deleterious mutations outnumber beneficial mutations by at least as much as ten thousand to one, and in some species by as much as ten million to one. Neutral or slightly deleterious mutations vastly outnumber both beneficial and clearly deleterious mutations. However, because the fraction of the genome acknowledged as functional is rapidly increasing (see chapter 13, pp. 200-202), the number of neutral mutations is dropping while the quantity of recognized deleterious mutations is rising.
To put it in perspective bad mutations vs good 10,000:1 and 1,000,000:1 now what percent is that for each. 0.0001% and 0.000001% chance that a mutation would be beneficial. So to put it bluntly, it isn't very likely. Now this IS NOT in-depth, this is just the surface. There is much more to statistics, but I don't have time to go into them right now.

Back to my point and why I put the pics in to begin with. Kristoffer, I want you to think about this. Look at the DNA and RNA, what it is comprised of, what it needs to work properly, and how it formed and came to life to begin with. That is why I went into the detail that I did. Do you really think that something as complex as DNA can form on it's own? Now you may point to things that are complex and not alive and say they could form on their own, but DNA is more than just chemicals, it is a blue print. It tells the cells how to behave and act, no other chemical composition is like that. The core of the earth does not tell it how to behave, the earth does not "read" the core and then move according to a certain programing. Yet that is how the Cell works. I am only touching the surface, there is much much more to come.

I am hoping that some one else *coughgmanorzoegirlcough* will come on and add to this, and correct me where I am wrong, but I felt the need to post this, I think it is high time to expose you to everything scientific when it comes to why we believe, and I think showing how unlikely life from non life is, and how unlikely evolution is, is the first step in helping you see God and all He has done. Friend I am doing this for you, because I want some day to see you in the Kingdom of heaven.

Now my post is not that good, I am tired and a bit light headed, and I have only recently dusted off my old notes, but give me time and I will do more. But for now, I hope this gets you thinking and looking into things. Do not forget the articles on the main site, and consider reading some of the books. However I am willing to do what it takes to show you the amazing workings of the Hands of God.
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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

#2

Post by cslewislover » Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:30 pm

We'll look for your sequel! I can't wait to read Signature in the Cell. Hope to get it soooon.
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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

#3

Post by Gman » Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:07 pm

Like K says... I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.. ;)
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

#4

Post by Phantom » Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:18 pm

Excellent post! :D

Can't wait for you to add on so I can gain more knowledge and store it into my memory....... btw: Atheists, how did we get our brains? Human brains are extraordinary when you really think about it.

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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

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Post by Kurieuo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:07 pm

Gman wrote:Like K says... I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.. ;)
:amen:

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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

#6

Post by Gabrielman » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:11 pm

cslewislover wrote:We'll look for your sequel! I can't wait to read Signature in the Cell. Hope to get it soooon.
Nor can I wait to read it! :D I am going to be reading Edge of Evolution here soon, so that will have to wait. But I will post more about this topic very soon! :ebiggrin:
Gman wrote:Like K says... I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.. ;)
It is so surprising how much faith it would actually take to be an atheist. First you have to believe that the entire universe would form from nothing (what are the chances of that? :roll: ) then that protons, neutrons, and electrons would all have the exact right charge and size to form a cohesive universe in which life can prosper. Then you have to have the right amount of matter to form galaxies and planets that are big enough, but not too big, to hold an atmosphere that will support life, or encourage the growth of life, and then atoms must form together into proteins, that then must come to life on their own, and not die off instantly. So yeah.... what is the percent chance of all of that happening in our universe? Seriously, our very violent universe, with super novas and quasars going off constantly and planets are daily being bombarded by radiation and asteroids... so yeah... you have more of a chance of hitting a target that is 50,000 miles away, with a hand gun.
Phantom wrote:Excellent post! :D

Can't wait for you to add on so I can gain more knowledge and store it into my memory....... btw: Atheists, how did we get our brains? Human brains are extraordinary when you really think about it.

Thanks!

You know atheists don't really have a good explanation for the brain, and I would like to discuss the complexity of the brain and how unlikely it is to exist. However I would like to point out something that always comes to mind. The brain is our most important organ. If you get shot in the head, you will more than likely die, however if you get shot in the foot, you have a high chance of living. If you get beheaded, well yo die.... but lose an arm, and you may not. So why is it like that? Why would that evolve? Why would we have such a sensitive thing in such a place? But that is nothing.... I am not making a very good point. That aside I do want to go into it more. Right now I am just working on the cell, but to take everything into perspective is simply astonishing to think that anyone could believe that it came from nothing (and it is astonishing to believe that we can believe things :o we can think! That in of itself is amazing). What's more is we are a compilation of a bunch of living cells working in unison to continue our lives, yet each cell is alive on it's own, and if our brain dies so do they. We are a bunch of living organisms as one giant living organism on a highly privileged planet.

I have more to come, and some things to clarify now that I am thinking more clearly. I hope that I can help people with my thoughts, and I look forward to your thoughts on mine.

God Bless everyone!
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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

#7

Post by cslewislover » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:22 pm

What's more is we are a compilation of a bunch of living cells working in unison to continue our lives, yet each cell is alive on it's own,
What amazes me too is how things grow. I mean, humans take a long time to grow to adulthood. All that time, so many things in the body are growing and changing in unison . . . It's amazing. And consciously, we don't think much of it! :)
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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

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Post by Phantom » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:52 pm

Gabrielman wrote: Thanks!

You know atheists don't really have a good explanation for the brain, and I would like to discuss the complexity of the brain and how unlikely it is to exist. However I would like to point out something that always comes to mind. The brain is our most important organ. If you get shot in the head, you will more than likely die, however if you get shot in the foot, you have a high chance of living. If you get beheaded, well yo die.... but lose an arm, and you may not. So why is it like that? Why would that evolve? Why would we have such a sensitive thing in such a place? But that is nothing.... I am not making a very good point. That aside I do want to go into it more. Right now I am just working on the cell, but to take everything into perspective is simply astonishing to think that anyone could believe that it came from nothing (and it is astonishing to believe that we can believe things :o we can think! That in of itself is amazing). What's more is we are a compilation of a bunch of living cells working in unison to continue our lives, yet each cell is alive on it's own, and if our brain dies so do they. We are a bunch of living organisms as one giant living organism on a highly privileged planet.

I have more to come, and some things to clarify now that I am thinking more clearly. I hope that I can help people with my thoughts, and I look forward to your thoughts on mine.

God Bless everyone!
Not to mention our heart..... Is it possible that our heart can just happen? It's not as complex as the brain, but it still is the organ that keeps us alive. Without it we die. It seems impossible that the heart could just randomly happen. Our heart is extremely powerful, beating an average 60-100 BPM for around 78 years (USA life expentacy). That means that if i live for 78 years and my BPM is around 80, my heart would have beat (if I'm correct, please check my math haha) over 3,279,744,000 times. That's simply incredible.... not to mention that there are people who have lived for over a hundred years with the same heart. Our heart is so good that artificial hearts don't compare. How the cells in our body know how to do that is beyond me. If anybody has an explanation I would love to hear it. I believe only God could make something so good.

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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

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Post by Gabrielman » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:11 am

Phantom wrote: Not to mention our heart..... Is it possible that our heart can just happen? It's not as complex as the brain, but it still is the organ that keeps us alive. Without it we die. It seems impossible that the heart could just randomly happen. Our heart is extremely powerful, beating an average 60-100 BPM for around 78 years (USA life expentacy). That means that if i live for 78 years and my BPM is around 80, my heart would have beat (if I'm correct, please check my math haha) over 3,279,744,000 times. That's simply incredible.... not to mention that there are people who have lived for over a hundred years with the same heart. Our heart is so good that artificial hearts don't compare. How the cells in our body know how to do that is beyond me. If anybody has an explanation I would love to hear it. I believe only God could make something so good.
Very good point! LOL and we will get more into that, but I do want to focus on the DNA right now. However keep posting, lol cause I will get to all of this as soon as I can. I have a saved post I am working on right now, so more soon. But let me check your math real fast... well I looked at how many minutes are in a year, and I rounded up to the nearest who number and the minutes were 525,949, now that times 80 BPM is 42,075,920 now that times 78 is 3,281,927,700 so rather close, though I did not take in leap years, and I rounded, so you are basically correct, lol that is yet another good point from you! But I will get back to this tomorrow, sleepy time! :sleep: I hope you stick around the board Phantom!
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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

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Post by Phantom » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:09 am

Gabrielman wrote:
Phantom wrote: Not to mention our heart..... Is it possible that our heart can just happen? It's not as complex as the brain, but it still is the organ that keeps us alive. Without it we die. It seems impossible that the heart could just randomly happen. Our heart is extremely powerful, beating an average 60-100 BPM for around 78 years (USA life expentacy). That means that if i live for 78 years and my BPM is around 80, my heart would have beat (if I'm correct, please check my math haha) over 3,279,744,000 times. That's simply incredible.... not to mention that there are people who have lived for over a hundred years with the same heart. Our heart is so good that artificial hearts don't compare. How the cells in our body know how to do that is beyond me. If anybody has an explanation I would love to hear it. I believe only God could make something so good.
Very good point! LOL and we will get more into that, but I do want to focus on the DNA right now. However keep posting, lol cause I will get to all of this as soon as I can. I have a saved post I am working on right now, so more soon. But let me check your math real fast... well I looked at how many minutes are in a year, and I rounded up to the nearest who number and the minutes were 525,949, now that times 80 BPM is 42,075,920 now that times 78 is 3,281,927,700 so rather close, though I did not take in leap years, and I rounded, so you are basically correct, lol that is yet another good point from you! But I will get back to this tomorrow, sleepy time! :sleep: I hope you stick around the board Phantom!
I also didn't include the heart rate for exercising..... That would make the answer even higher! :shock:

Thank you! I do plan on sticking around.... though I am not as good as you guys when it comes to the debating :ewink:

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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

#11

Post by jlay » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:45 pm

Good job Gabe!
But seriously, they just evolved to Survive, all things Evolve to survive better and pass on genes.
Kris. Examine what you said here. Evolution does not have a consciousness. It can't look ahead and say, "hey, I'm going to need this or that." However, a creator can.

Further, we know that evolution (as you believe it) passes on bad genes. We see a lot of disease, cancer, etc. Why isn't evolution evolving it out?
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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

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Post by zoegirl » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:28 pm

If they are recessive genes that are causing the disease, it will take a very long time, if ever, for the allele to disappear from the population, since heterozygous individuals will always carry the recessive allele. Not to mention sometimes the heterozygous does carry an advantage (sickle cell, for example).

Remember that according to the model, it's similar to a poker game...not every hand is the best hand but the best of the ones dealt that "win". You don't necessarily have to have a royal flush, you simply just have to have the highest hand than everyone else.
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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

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Post by zoegirl » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:51 pm

Also, whether or not a gene is eliminated from a population is dependent upon it being expressed at the time the animal is reproducing. For example, Huntington's disease develops late in late and is due to a dominant allele. However, because we are not expressing the allele at the time that particular disease is not under any selective pressure. Obviously that is a human disease but the principle is the same in animal populations. Many genes causing disease later in life are not eliminated in this way, simply because we are not reproducing when they are expressed.

The theory of natural selection has almost more to due to reproductive fitness than simply survival. A deer that only survives to age 5 but has 10 fawns over her lifetime has been far mroe successful than a doe that lived to age 9 but only reproduced 5 times. The genes that are expressed, then, during the most active reproductive years are the genes that will contribute most to selection.
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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

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Post by zoegirl » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:53 pm

Edge of evolution is good. Behe investigates a lot of the limitations of the production of the alleles.
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Re: The complexity of life, Proof of God?

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Post by Gabrielman » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:41 pm

My next post will but up soon, tomorrow in fact. I aim to have it done soon after I get up, lol I love having days off. But just wanted to let you know that more is coming on what I had said above. Thanks Zoe for your posts too!
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