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ElShamah
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participate at Atheist Forums

#1

Post by ElShamah » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:39 pm

hi all

my name is Angelo. I am swiss/italian, and live over ten years in brazil. I am a born again, evangelical christian, 25 years now.
I use to post at atheist forums. The Godandscience homepage has been one of the best homepages up to know, which i was able to use as base of argumentation. usually i am quit alone with this task. Are there other participants of this forum, that use to evangelize at diverse forums ?

a recent forum, i posted, is this one :

http://www.atheist.ie/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... 00&start=0

Angelo

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Re: participate at Atheist Forums

#2

Post by godslanguage » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:14 pm

Elshamah,

To be quite frank, you will not get anywhere with those types of forums.

Atheists who label themselves as such (with big red "A") and post on forums are usually the dogmatic types who make their non-belief in a God a religion (on average you won't find atheists who really care). Most online "youtube" atheists are Darwinians by definition (they have their leaders: Dawkins, Myers etc... like many religions do) and there is no cure for it, they are chance worshipers at heart who use evolution to propagate their belief system and to attack primarily Christianity (for some odd reason which we know why :mrgreen: )
"Is it possible that God is not just an Engineer, but also a divine Artist who creates at times solely for His enjoyment? Maybe the Creator really does like beetles." RTB

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Re: participate at Atheist Forums

#3

Post by ElShamah » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:20 pm

godslanguage wrote:Atheists who label themselves as such (with big red "A") and post on forums are usually the dogmatic types who make their non-belief in a God a religion (on average you won't find atheists who really care). Most online "youtube" atheists are Darwinians by definition (they have their leaders: Dawkins, Myers etc... like many religions do) and there is no cure for it, they are chance worshipers at heart who use evolution to propagate their belief system and to attack primarily Christianity (for some odd reason which we know why :mrgreen: )
i agree with you. Even if the irrationality of atheism is shown, and the wealth of evidence for a universe, created by a conscious mind, they don't accept it. But often there are questions made, which i never heard before, and make me search for a answer. that way i learn a lot of things. There was however a forum, i participated recently, where the forum members where very well informed about the bible, and made some questions, of which i did not find a satisfying answer. Namely
Isaiah 13,17 - 22 . the prophecy says that the city of Babylon would never be habited again. But Saddam Hussein built the city again, and a big palast.....

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Re: participate at Atheist Forums

#4

Post by Gman » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:03 pm

ElShamah wrote:There was however a forum, i participated recently, where the forum members where very well informed about the bible, and made some questions, of which i did not find a satisfying answer. Namely
Isaiah 13,17 - 22 . the prophecy says that the city of Babylon would never be habited again. But Saddam Hussein built the city again, and a big palast.....
Hi ElShamah.. Well the city of babylon was never really inhabited again. Of course people built on top of it, but not really the city of babylon. That would be my two cents anyways..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: participate at Atheist Forums

#5

Post by ElShamah » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:05 am

Would you admit then, that this prophecy has not fullfilled ?

13:19 Babylon, the most admired40 of kingdoms,

the Chaldeans' source of honor and pride,41

will be destroyed by God

just as Sodom and Gomorrah were.42

13:20 No one will live there again;

no one will ever reside there again.43

No bedouin44 will camp45 there,

no shepherds will rest their flocks46 there.


13:21 Wild animals will rest there,

the ruined47 houses will be full of hyenas.48

Ostriches will live there,

wild goats will skip among the ruins.49

13:22 Wild dogs will yip in her ruined fortresses,

jackals will yelp in the once-splendid palaces.50

Her time is almost up,51

her days will not be prolonged

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Re: participate at Atheist Forums

#6

Post by cslewislover » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:04 am

One commentary I've looked in so far says that this prophecy has been partially fulfilled, but it's total fulfilling is yet to come; see Revelation 17-18. I'll look in some other sources too, but I bet they'll say the same thing. There are other prophecies in the bible like that: different times are mixed in together.
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Re: participate at Atheist Forums

#7

Post by ElShamah » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:23 am

One commentary I've looked in so far says that this prophecy has been partially fulfilled, but it's total fulfilling is yet to come; see Revelation 17-18.
that was one of the answers i gave as well. But to be honest, i didn't feel well with that...

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php ... 44&page=32

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#8

Post by cslewislover » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:55 am

The commentary I have admits it's one of the most difficult of prophecies. The way I look at it, is, there are so many prophecies that HAVE been fulfilled that I just consider cases like this one hard to understand or a mystery so far. You're probably aware of the Israel prophecy, right? Before Israel became a nation, Christians thought that that prophecy (I don't have the verse at the moment) was not real or something. I believe it's one of the reasons why in the recent past, more of the bible was taken as symbol and metaphor - because people didn't see how that prophecy, and the ones dependent on it, would be fulfilled. Yet it was. Israel became a nation again, and all of a sudden other prophecy that hadn't been fulfilled yet could now be viewed as coming to fruition too (sometime). I don't feel like I'm writing this very well. If you don't know what I mean, let me know.

PS: When it comes down to difficulties and mysteries, my trust and faith in the Lord are what get me by. Without the Lord, a person can't be satisfied with these explanations, I don't think. Before I came to the Lord, I had doubts and questions too, and no one could answer them satisfactorily. If you want to talk with these people, it may help them some, especially if they become more open about understanding God. And of course you can pray for them. That would be up to you. I've debated some people on another board, not an atheist board, but one that had different discussions. It didn't seem like I helped anyone, but I don't know what seeds I planted in the discussion participants or the people reading the thread that never posted. Who knows.
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Re: participate at Atheist Forums

#9

Post by cslewislover » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:31 am

I'm looking in a bigger commentary now, and a more liberal one in some ways. It says the same thing, only more strongly and clearly. 13:2-16 is describing the Day of the Lord, and it continues on into the following verses. But I'd like to quote part of the introductory section, since it relates to this type of issue generally.

"Originally the words of the prophets were for their own times. Warnings about the consequences of sin or curses against one's enemies had to have immediate effect if they were to be relevant. The proof that a prophecy was genuine, according to Deut 18:22, was that it came true. Most prophecies, however, were kept because they had not been fulfilled, suggesting that there was more than one way of recognizing genuine prophecy. Even as early as Jer 26:18, the elders of Judah quoted as genuine the unfulfilled prophecy of Micah that Jerusalem would be destroyed (Mic 3:12). An ancient oracle was being reused in a new situation, implying that Micah had spoken for a future generation and not for his own times. By the Second Temple period, prophecy was regarded as prediction of the distant future: Jeremiah's prophecy of seventy years in exile (Jer 29:10) was reinterpreted as seventy weeks of years (Dan 9:24). The Habakkuk Commentary found at Qumran shows how that prophet provided a detailed prediction of contemporary events; the "Chaldeans" of Hab 1:6 became the "Kittim," the Romans." (This is from p 510 of the Eerdmans Commentary on the Bible, James DG Dunn, General Editor, 2003.)

Maybe you could use this, I don't know. It puts it in context and perspective.
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Re: participate at Atheist Forums

#10

Post by ElShamah » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:55 pm

You know, the question about isaiah 13 does not bother me so much , anymore, now. However, some time before, in another atheist board, someone pointed out, that the prophecy of tyrus and sidon also did not fullfill. I would have to go in further again, to find exactly the point. Fact is, i did also not find anywhere a acceptable answer. That way, i don't feel that confortable , to continue to exchange with atheists. the quest arises : if the bible is the word of god, without mistakes, then all profecies should have fullfilled the way as described.... and leave no doubt. I pointed out also on the board, despite this difficult one, how many others fullfilled, and if this is not a evidence for the truthness of the bible. The counterpart said, if just one prophecy is false, then the assertion, the bible is the inspired word of God, has no value anymore. I can't disagree with him....

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#11

Post by cslewislover » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:19 pm

Well, that's why I posted what I did. These prophecies are not considered false by the millions of people who believe (and believed) the bible to be true; the prophecies simply have yet to be fulfilled. Like it says in the above passage, some prophecies have more than one prophecy in them. It's easy to say that a prophecy is false just because it hasn't happened yet. It also doesn't make any sense. If a prophecy is about a future event, then why say it's false because it hasn't happened yet?

Something to consider, anyway. You seem like you don't really believe the bible, or are you just saying how you consider the other person's view? If it's the latter, then sure, I mentioned that in an above post, too. You need to pray for these people. God calls people, and the Holy Spirit helps them to understand. Otherwise, they won't understand.

I had heard the one about Tyre and Sidon in a couple of sermons, but I'd need to look that up.
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Re: participate at Atheist Forums

#12

Post by Byblos » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:21 pm

I ought to know a thing or 2 about Tyre and Sidon. All your questions are answered here.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#13

Post by cslewislover » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:26 pm

Byblos wrote:I ought to know a thing or 2 about Tyre and Sidon. All your questions are answered here.
That looks like a really nice study, or group of studies. I'll have to read the whole thing. :)
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Re: participate at Atheist Forums

#14

Post by ElShamah » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:12 pm

Byblos wrote:I ought to know a thing or 2 about Tyre and Sidon. All your questions are answered here.
hi

thanks, thats a exellent homepage.
there are however two points , where my doubts remain.

1. Where antique Babylon was, Saddam Hussein has built a " modern " Babylon :

http://architecture.about.com/cs/countr ... palace.htm

2. there is a contradiction in hesekiel :

26:7 “For this is what the sovereign Lord says: Take note that10 I am about to bring King Nebuchadrezzar11 of Babylon, king of kings, against Tyre from the north, with horses, chariots, and horsemen, an army and hordes of people. 26:8 He will kill your daughters in the field with the sword. He will build a siege wall against you, erect a siege ramp against you, and raise a great shield against you. 26:9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and tear down your towers with his weapons.12 26:10 He will cover you with the dust kicked up by his many horses.13 Your walls will shake from the noise of the horsemen, wheels, and chariots when he enters your gates like those who invade through a city's broken walls.14 26:11 With his horses' hoofs he will trample all your streets. He will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will tumble down to the ground. 26:12 They will steal your wealth and loot your merchandise. They will tear down your walls and destroy your luxurious15 homes. Your stones, your trees, and your soil he will throw16 into the water.17 26:13 I will silence18 the noise of your songs; the sound of your harps will be heard no more. 26:14 I will make you a bare rock; you will be a place where fishing nets are spread. You will never be built again,19 for I, the Lord, have spoken, declares the sovereign Lord.

but then, it says :

29:17 In the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first day of the month,18 the word of the Lord came to me: 29:18 “Son of man, King Nebuchadrezzar19 of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre.20 Every head was rubbed bald and every shoulder rubbed bare; yet he and his army received no wages from Tyre for the work he carried out against it. 29:19 Therefore this is what the sovereign Lord says: Look, I am about to give the land of Egypt to King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon. He will carry off her wealth, capture her loot, and seize her plunder; it will be his army's wages. 29:20 I have given him the land of Egypt as his compensation for attacking Tyre21, because they did it for me, declares the sovereign Lord. 29:21 On that day I will make Israel powerful,22 and I will give you the right to be heard23 among them. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”

so, first , the prophecy, nebukadnezar would steal wealth and loot your merchandise, but then.....yet he and his army received no wages from Tyre for the work he carried out against it.

how should we explain that ?

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Re: participate at Atheist Forums

#15

Post by munster » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:21 pm

ElShamah wrote:
godslanguage wrote:Atheists who label themselves as such (with big red "A") and post on forums are usually the dogmatic types who make their non-belief in a God a religion (on average you won't find atheists who really care). Most online "youtube" atheists are Darwinians by definition (they have their leaders: Dawkins, Myers etc... like many religions do) and there is no cure for it, they are chance worshipers at heart who use evolution to propagate their belief system and to attack primarily Christianity (for some odd reason which we know why :mrgreen: )
i agree with you. Even if the irrationality of atheism is shown, and the wealth of evidence for a universe, created by a conscious mind, they don't accept it. But often there are questions made, which i never heard before, and make me search for a answer. that way i learn a lot of things. There was however a forum, i participated recently, where the forum members where very well informed about the bible, and made some questions, of which i did not find a satisfying answer. Namely
Isaiah 13,17 - 22 . the prophecy says that the city of Babylon would never be habited again. But Saddam Hussein built the city again, and a big palast.....
You're right Elshamah you won't get very far in these types of forums, that is if you keep dodging the questions like Angelo did.

Oh and by the way for any of ye wondering, Babylon is not underneath Baghdad, it is located about 100 miles southwest of the city, and Saddam Hussein did not rebuild it (he done a lot of things but not that) it has been around since the eighth century.

Oh, and yes I am a member of Atheist.ie, Irelands very own site for Atheists, agnostics, freethinkers etc. come and join the fun anytime.

Thank ye all for yer time
'I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.' - Mark Twain

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