The Christmas Star

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Gman
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by Gman »

Anyways, getting back to the Starry Night software. If you go back to June 17 2 BC about 8 pm looking from Baghdad (where the magi came from), you can clearly see that there was a conjunction of the planets between Venus and Jupiter. I would say that the star is very bright on the horizon. It's bright mainly because the two planets are not directly behind one another, they are side by side giving the illusion as being a bigger brighter star.

Image

And if you think this means nothing... This type of conjunction has never been seen before. It only happens every 1.2 million years and it has never happened since... On top of that, it happened twice in the same year in the same constellation of Leo. Coincidence??
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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McMurdo
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by McMurdo »

I believe everybody here is looking in the wrong place!

I will make 2 points to begin with.

1. Astrology is always spoken of in negative terms in scripture. See the very good article on this website. http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/a ... IZhKsymzeq Why would God use Astrology to point people to his own Son? Yet this is what most people here appear to be arguing.

2. The passage in Matthew makes it quite clear that the star itself moved and guided the Magi specifically to where Jesus was. How could heavenly bodies do this? See below:


Matthew 2:9-10 (New International Version)
After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed.


The most plausible explanation I have come across comes from an Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew. I wrote the piece below some time ago, and it is a combination of Arnold's teaching, some other information I have picked up and one or two of my ideas. See what you think.

Matthew 2:1f
Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem in Judea, during the reign of King Herod. About that time some wise men [Magi, Astrologers] from eastern lands arrived in Jerusalem, asking,"Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We have seen his star as it arose, and we have come to worship him." Herod was deeply disturbed by their question, as was all of Jerusalem. He called a meeting of the leading priests and teachers of religious law. "Where did the prophets say the Messiah would be born?" he asked them. "In Bethlehem," they said, "for this is what the prophet wrote: 'O Bethlehem of Judah, you are not just a lowly village in Judah, for a ruler will come from you who will be the shepherd for my people Israel.' " Then Herod sent a private message to the wise men, asking them to come see him. At this meeting he learned the exact time when they first saw the star. Then he told them, "Go to Bethlehem and search carefully for the child. And when you find him, come back and tell me so that I can go and worship him, too!"
After this interview the wise men went their way. Once again the star appeared to them, guiding them to Bethlehem. It went ahead of them and stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were filled with joy! hey entered the house where the child and his mother, Mary, were, and they fell down before him and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasure chests and gave him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. But when it was time to leave, they went home another way, because God had warned them in a dream not to return to Herod.

This must be one of the strangest passages in the gospel according to Matthew.  Leaving aside what many already know - there were not necessarily 3, what the 3 gifts stood for etc, there are several questions with no clear answers, as follows:

1. How did they know about the King of the Jews?
2. Assuming they were gentiles, why did they care?
3. How did they know the star was his star?
4. What was the star?
5. Given what the Bible says elsewhere, why do astrologers get a good press?
6. We can understand Herod's reaction, but why was Jerusalem deeply disturbed?
7. Why is this all related in Matthew, which is supposed to be aimed at the Jews?
It is well worth thinking through this one, as the answer gives us some interesting insights.

How did they know, and why did they care?

Daniel was always associated with Babylonian astrologers (Daniel 1:19-20; 2:12-13, 47; 4:7-9; 5:11-12). Nebuchadnezzar, not realizing that the source of Daniel's ability was not the stars of the heavens but the God of Heaven, made Daniel the head of all the astrologers of Babylon. As Daniel eventually also saved the lives of these astrologers - by interpreting Nebuchadnezzar's dream - there is little doubt that he was able to lead many of them to turn away from the worship of the stars to begin worshipping the God of Israel.ӬӬSo, then, a line of Babylonian astrologers spanning generations worshipped the true God, and having Daniel's prophecy, looked forward to the coming of the King of the Jews. We can conclude from the Book of Daniel, then, that Babylonian astrologers did know the time Messiah was to be born. Hence the 'Seventy Sevens' of Daniel 9:24. However, Daniel says nothing about a star that would herald Messiah's birth.

How did they know it was His star?Ӭ

To find the answer, we must go back even earlier in the Old Testament to the prophecies of Balaam. Balaam was hired by the king of Moab to curse the Jews. He attempted to do so four times, and each time God took control of his mouth so that he ended up blessing the Jews instead. In the course of these blessings, he sets forth four key Messianic prophecies. One of these is found in Numbers 24:17

ӬӬI see him, but not now; I behold him, but not nigh: There shall come forth a star out of Jacob, And a sceptre shall rise out of Israel, And shall smite through the corners of Moab, And break down all the sons of tumult.ӬӬ


Much to his own regret, Balaam was forced by God to prophesy of the coming of the Jewish Messiah, which he related to a "star." But this is not a literal star, because it says, "And a sceptre shall rise out of Israel." The star and the sceptre in this text are one and the same. (We know this because the prophecy is in the form of Hebrew poetry, which is not based on rhythm or rhyme but on parallelism.) And the term "sceptre" is a symbol of royalty or kingship. This star, that would rise out of Jacob, is himself a king.ӬӬFurthermore, Balaam's occupation was that of an astrologer. Even more significant is that he came from Pethor, a city on the banks of the Euphrates River in Babylonia (Numbers 22:5; Deuteronomy 23:4). With the Book of Daniel and the prophecy of Balaam, we have a double Babylonian connection here. Hence, the revelation of a star in relation to Messiah's birth came via a Babylonian astrologer who, no doubt, passed the information down to his colleagues. Centuries later, Daniel was able to expound to the Babylonian astrologers as to the time that "the star of Jacob" would come.ӬӬ

So is the Bible giving astrology a “good press”?

The Magi knew not by gazing at the stars through the pseudo-science of astrology, but by revelation of God as contained in the Scriptures through the prophecies of Balaam and Daniel. The story of the Wise Men gives no validity to astrology whatsoever.ӬӬ We actually have here the opposite of Astrology. In Astrology, the position of the stars affects the person. Here, the position of Jesus affected the star!!

Interestingly, the three types of gifts given to Jesus by the Wise Men are full of Old Testament symbolism. Gold is the symbol of royalty or kingship, emphasizing that Jesus is a king. Frankincense - part of the special scent burned on the altar of incense within the holy place as well as the smoke penetrated into God's presence in the Holy of Holies itself - was a symbol of deity. Frankincense affirms Jesus as God. Myrrh was associated in the Old Testament with death and embalming.

So what exactly was the star?

Obviously, this star is something different, but what? The Greek word for "star" simply means "radiance" or "brilliance." With this star coming in the form of a light, we have the appearance of the Shechinah Glory - the visible manifestation of God's presence. Whenever God became visible in the Old Testament, such a manifestation was referred to as the Shechinah Glory. This manifested most often in the form of a light, fire, cloud or some combination of these three things. And, so, in Babylon appears a light, a brilliance, a radiance that may look from a distance like a star but has actions and characteristics that no star can or does. What these Wise Men actually saw was the Shechinah Glory, and they deduced that it was a signal that the King of the Jews had finally been born.

Why was "all of Jerusalem" deeply disturbed?

1. A small (or even a biggish) bunch of easterners would not normally cause a stir in Jerusalem - something akin to a "tourist" trap anyway - any more than they would in present day Durham or York.  Something more significant would have to be happening.
2. Judea was close to the edge of the Roman Empire. Not only was Herod ageing, but his province bordered the rival Parthian empire.
3. There is plenty of info about the Magi from archaeological finds, as well as the Bible. The Babylonians were good record keepers. Firstly, they were a priestly class (as the Levites were in Israel and the Brahmin caste in Hinduism) from the Medes [from whom the present day Kurds are probably descended from].
4. They were used by Kings in Persia, Media, Babylonia etc as senior advisors. Esther chapter 1 names some of them and refers to the laws of the "Medes and Persians" which cannot be revoked.
5. Priests and Kings frequently work in tandem.  Samuel (actually an Ephraimite and a Nazirite who worked closely with the priests at that time) was the "Kingmaker" of Saul and David.  Thereafter, the high Priest acted as "Kingmaker" for the Kings of Judah.  Even today, our Archbishop of Canterbury anoints our Constitutional Monarch on Coronation day.  Very important point, this.  The Magi were King-Makers.  This, I believe is the main reason why Matthew used this in his Gospel.  It is surely a rebuke to the Jewish people that God used gentiles to acknowledge Christ as the King of the Jews.  The whole thing bypassed the Jewish chief priests and scribes.

Forget what your Christmas card illustrations say! The Magi used horses, not camels!!! And those three lonely figures never existed. The Magi's importance meant that they would be accompanied by a bodyguard of a thousand persian cavalry. Now you know why Jerusalem was alarmed....and Herod even more so!

"Erm, Joseph, Mary, there's some people at the door - want to see your little boy!" Replace your mental picture of a bunch of foreign tourists in York with a huge motorcade arriving unannounced from a foreign empire....

Why is this all related in Matthew, the most Jewish of the Gospels?

Now bear in mind that Matthew was writing possibly the earliest gospel to Jews who had been scattered from Jerusalem (Acts 8:1f) throughout the surrounding areas. This incident would be within living memory of some of the readers. Matthew is saying, "Remember the time all those years ago...." and reminding his readers that these people had come to acknowledge the coming of the King of the Jews - the theme of his book.
Now there's some material to be going on with if you're stuck for a seasonal sermon.....!

With thanks to Ariel Ministries, http://www.ariel.org/
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Gman
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by Gman »

McMurdo wrote:I believe everybody here is looking in the wrong place!

I will make 2 points to begin with.

1. Astrology is always spoken of in negative terms in scripture. See the very good article on this website. http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/a ... IZhKsymzeq Why would God use Astrology to point people to his own Son? Yet this is what most people here appear to be arguing.
This is good... Finally someone to debate this. First and foremost I'm already aware of what our website (or Rich Deem) states about this. My beliefs about this is that it is incorrect and I will tell you why.

Second astrology is highly condemned in the Bible, Isaiah 47:12-14, Deuteronomy 18:9-14,18-22, Acts 7:42, Daniel 2:27-28, 2 Kings 17:16-18, Corinthians 10:5. Astrology for the most part is considered a perversion of the message of the stars where people took the constellations and named them after their own gods Amos 5:26, Acts 7:43. The stars are not to be worshiped but that is what they did..

As we can see from scripture, however, it is God who calls the names of the stars and provides knowledge to them not man. This is not astrology we are talking about there. This is simply a story in the sky..

Psalm 19:1-3
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

Psalm 147:4
He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.
McMurdo wrote:2. The passage in Matthew makes it quite clear that the star itself moved and guided the Magi specifically to where Jesus was. How could heavenly bodies do this? See below:
Correct, and the planets (or stars) can move too and stop using retrograde motion. See example below.

Image
McMurdo wrote:
Matthew 2:9-10 (New International Version)
After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed.


The most plausible explanation I have come across comes from an Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew. I wrote the piece below some time ago, and it is a combination of Arnold's teaching, some other information I have picked up and one or two of my ideas. See what you think.

Matthew 2:1f
Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem in Judea, during the reign of King Herod. About that time some wise men [Magi, Astrologers] from eastern lands arrived in Jerusalem, asking, "Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We have seen his star as it arose, and we have come to worship him." Herod was deeply disturbed by their question, as was all of Jerusalem.  He called a meeting of the leading priests and teachers of religious law. "Where did the prophets say the Messiah would be born?" he asked them. "In Bethlehem," they said, "for this is what the prophet wrote: 'O Bethlehem of Judah, you are not just a lowly village in Judah, for a ruler will come from you who will be the shepherd for my people Israel.' "  Then Herod sent a private message to the wise men, asking them to come see him. At this meeting he learned the exact time when they first saw the star.  Then he told them, "Go to Bethlehem and search carefully for the child. And when you find him, come back and tell me so that I can go and worship him, too!"
After this interview the wise men went their way. Once again the star appeared to them, guiding them to Bethlehem. It went ahead of them and stopped over the place where the child was.  When they saw the star, they were filled with joy! They entered the house where the child and his mother, Mary, were, and they fell down before him and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasure chests and gave him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.  But when it was time to leave, they went home another way, because God had warned them in a dream not to return to Herod.

This must be one of the strangest passages in the gospel according to Matthew.  Leaving aside what many already know - there were not necessarily 3, what the 3 gifts stood for etc, there are several questions with no clear answers, as follows:

1. How did they know about the King of the Jews?
2. Assuming they were gentiles, why did they care?
3. How did they know the star was his star?
4. What was the star?
5. Given what the Bible says elsewhere, why do astrologers get a good press?
6. We can understand Herod's reaction, but why was Jerusalem deeply disturbed?
7. Why is this all related in Matthew, which is supposed to be aimed at the Jews?
It is well worth thinking through this one, as the answer gives us some interesting insights.

How did they know, and why did they care?
Here is another question for you.. Why is it that only the magi could see the star?
McMurdo wrote:Daniel was always associated with Babylonian astrologers (Daniel 1:19-20; 2:12-13, 47; 4:7-9; 5:11-12). Nebuchadnezzar, not realizing that the source of Daniel's ability was not the stars of the heavens but the God of Heaven, made Daniel the head of all the astrologers of Babylon. As Daniel eventually also saved the lives of these astrologers - by interpreting Nebuchadnezzar's dream - there is little doubt that he was able to lead many of them to turn away from the worship of the stars to begin worshipping the God of Israel.ӬӬSo, then, a line of Babylonian astrologers spanning generations worshipped the true God, and having Daniel's prophecy, looked forward to the coming of the King of the Jews. We can conclude from the Book of Daniel, then, that Babylonian astrologers did know the time Messiah was to be born. Hence the 'Seventy Sevens' of Daniel 9:24. However, Daniel says nothing about a star that would herald Messiah's birth.
I would like to see the verse that states that Daniel led the astrologers away from the understanding of the stars. Also the Bible does claim that a star would herald the Messiah's birth Matthew 2:2,7,9,10 including Numbers 24:17.
McMurdo wrote:How did they know it was His star?Ӭ

To find the answer, we must go back even earlier in the Old Testament to the prophecies of Balaam. Balaam was hired by the king of Moab to curse the Jews. He attempted to do so four times, and each time God took control of his mouth so that he ended up blessing the Jews instead. In the course of these blessings, he sets forth four key Messianic prophecies. One of these is found in Numbers 24:17

ӬӬI see him, but not now; I behold him, but not nigh: There shall come forth a star out of Jacob, And a sceptre shall rise out of Israel, And shall smite through the corners of Moab, And break down all the sons of tumult.ӬӬ


Much to his own regret, Balaam was forced by God to prophesy of the coming of the Jewish Messiah, which he related to a "star." But this is not a literal star, because it says, "And a sceptre shall rise out of Israel." The star and the sceptre in this text are one and the same. (We know this because the prophecy is in the form of Hebrew poetry, which is not based on rhythm or rhyme but on parallelism.) And the term "sceptre" is a symbol of royalty or kingship. This star, that would rise out of Jacob, is himself a king.ӬӬFurthermore, Balaam's occupation was that of an astrologer. Even more significant is that he came from Pethor, a city on the banks of the Euphrates River in Babylonia (Numbers 22:5; Deuteronomy 23:4). With the Book of Daniel and the prophecy of Balaam, we have a double Babylonian connection here. Hence, the revelation of a star in relation to Messiah's birth came via a Babylonian astrologer who, no doubt, passed the information down to his colleagues. Centuries later, Daniel was able to expound to the Babylonian astrologers as to the time that "the star of Jacob" would come.ӬӬ
Not quite... The meaning of the word "star" when used throughout Matthew 2:2-10 and other places in the NT and OT means a literal star. Not an apparition.

Old Testament Strong's 3556 (a literal star)
New Testament Strong's 792 (a literal star)

And what about Numbers 24:17?

Numbers 24:17
I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

There are a few constellations that depict a man welding a staff or scepter often striking the head of a snake. Those of Hercules, Bootes, or Cepheus.

Image
Cepheus or "King" (Christ) constellation with his scepter

Also Cepheus's and Hercules's scepter does rise out of Israel and smites the corners of Moab (Jordan) when you put the constellations in motion in relation to the horizon (during the day). The children of Seth are of the devil or snake constellations, Draco and decans Hydra and Serpens.

Image
Hercules (or Christ) smiting snakes
McMurdo wrote:So is the Bible giving astrology a “good press”?

The Magi knew not by gazing at the stars through the pseudo-science of astrology, but by revelation of God as contained in the Scriptures through the prophecies of Balaam and Daniel. The story of the Wise Men gives no validity to astrology whatsoever.ӬӬ We actually have here the opposite of Astrology. In Astrology, the position of the stars affects the person. Here, the position of Jesus affected the star!!

Interestingly, the three types of gifts given to Jesus by the Wise Men are full of Old Testament symbolism. Gold is the symbol of royalty or kingship, emphasizing that Jesus is a king. Frankincense - part of the special scent burned on the altar of incense within the holy place as well as the smoke penetrated into God's presence in the Holy of Holies itself - was a symbol of deity. Frankincense affirms Jesus as God. Myrrh was associated in the Old Testament with death and embalming.
Astrology no... But actually this information gives more credence that the magi were more Jewish in nature or knew about the Jewish religion from the diaspora of the Jews to Babylon....

There is no question that the Jews had an interest in astronomical events..

The Jewish Evidence

1. Jewish Sibylline Oracles 5:512-531.
2. Dead Sea Scrolls 4Qcryptic and 4Q186.
3. Archeologists found the signs of the zodiac on the Jewish synagogue floors of locations Hammat Tiberias, Beit Alpha, Ussfiyeh, Sepphoris, Husifa on Mt. Carmel, and Na'aran near Jericho.

Image

The Historical Evidence

1. Josephus War Book V 4-5. (zodiac on curtain and floor on the temple mount in Jerusalem).
2. Josephus Book III Ch. 7 (breastplate symbolized zodiac).
3. Talmud amd Midrash - statements in the Talmud and in the midrash literature show that many Jews had some level of admiration for astronomy. (Midrash Genesis Rabbah 44:12, Yal., Jer. 285). A statement in the Tosefta (Kiddushin 5:17) holds that the blessing bestowed on Abraham is the gift of astronomy. Midrash Ecclesiastes Rabbah states that the rulers of some non-Jewish were experts in astronomy, and that King Solomon too had expertise in this realm. (7:23 no. 1) There is a story in the Talmud according to which God showed to Adam all the future generations, including their scribes, scholars, and leaders (BT Avodah Zarah 5a). Midrash Tadshe states explicitly that the tabernacle represents the universe.
McMurdo wrote:So what exactly was the star?

Obviously, this star is something different, but what? The Greek word for "star" simply means "radiance" or "brilliance." With this star coming in the form of a light, we have the appearance of the Shechinah Glory - the visible manifestation of God's presence. Whenever God became visible in the Old Testament, such a manifestation was referred to as the Shechinah Glory. This manifested most often in the form of a light, fire, cloud or some combination of these three things. And, so, in Babylon appears a light, a brilliance, a radiance that may look from a distance like a star but has actions and characteristics that no star can or does. What these Wise Men actually saw was the Shechinah Glory, and they deduced that it was a signal that the King of the Jews had finally been born.
Again I would seriously doubt this... Scripture doesn't support it and if it were the "Shechinah Glory" then why only did the magi see His star? Why did Herod have to question the Magi?
McMurdo wrote:Why was "all of Jerusalem" deeply disturbed?

1. A small (or even a biggish) bunch of easterners would not normally cause a stir in Jerusalem - something akin to a "tourist" trap anyway - any more than they would in present day Durham or York. Something more significant would have to be happening.
2. Judea was close to the edge of the Roman Empire. Not only was Herod ageing, but his province bordered the rival Parthian empire.
3. There is plenty of info about the Magi from archaeological finds, as well as the Bible. The Babylonians were good record keepers. Firstly, they were a priestly class (as the Levites were in Israel and the Brahmin caste in Hinduism) from the Medes [from whom the present day Kurds are probably descended from].
4. They were used by Kings in Persia, Media, Babylonia etc as senior advisors. Esther chapter 1 names some of them and refers to the laws of the "Medes and Persians" which cannot be revoked.
5. Priests and Kings frequently work in tandem. Samuel (actually an Ephraimite and a Nazirite who worked closely with the priests at that time) was the "Kingmaker" of Saul and David. Thereafter, the high Priest acted as "Kingmaker" for the Kings of Judah. Even today, our Archbishop of Canterbury anoints our Constitutional Monarch on Coronation day. Very important point, this. The Magi were King-Makers. This, I believe is the main reason why Matthew used this in his Gospel. It is surely a rebuke to the Jewish people that God used gentiles to acknowledge Christ as the King of the Jews. The whole thing bypassed the Jewish chief priests and scribes.

Forget what your Christmas card illustrations say! The Magi used horses, not camels!!! And those three lonely figures never existed. The Magi's importance meant that they would be accompanied by a bodyguard of a thousand persian cavalry. Now you know why Jerusalem was alarmed....and Herod even more so!

"Erm, Joseph, Mary, there's some people at the door - want to see your little boy!" Replace your mental picture of a bunch of foreign tourists in York with a huge motorcade arriving unannounced from a foreign empire....

Why is this all related in Matthew, the most Jewish of the Gospels?

Now bear in mind that Matthew was writing possibly the earliest gospel to Jews who had been scattered from Jerusalem (Acts 8:1f) throughout the surrounding areas. This incident would be within living memory of some of the readers. Matthew is saying, "Remember the time all those years ago...." and reminding his readers that these people had come to acknowledge the coming of the King of the Jews - the theme of his book.
Now there's some material to be going on with if you're stuck for a seasonal sermon.....!

With thanks to Ariel Ministries, http://www.ariel.org/
There are other possible explanations for the magi too..

"Who are these magi? The word, 'magi,' which is sometimes translated 'wise men,' is the root from which we get our word 'magic.' This doesn't make them all magicians, in the present sense of the word. Some of them were learned men in general, who studied the physical world and were knowledgeable about many things, including the stars. Magi were often court astronomers who were consulted by the rulers of the day for guidance in affairs of state. This was also true in much earlier times. For example, during the Babylonian captivity of the Jews, some 500 years earlier, King Nebuchadnezar kept a stable of court magi. Nebuchadnezer made the Jewish prophet Daniel Chief Magus of his court when Daniel was able to interpret a dream the other magi could not (16).

There were magi of various schools, and some were more respected than others. We know something of a particularly prestigious school of magi from the writings of Philo. Philo was a Jewish philosopher and contemporary of Jesus who lived in the large Jewish community of Alexandria, Egypt. Philo wrote in praise of an Eastern school of magi and their great learning and understanding of the natural world (17). This school may have descended from the Babylonian magi of Daniel's day. Matthew does report that the Wise Men were from the East, and Babylon is east of Judea. It was at one time part of the Persian Empire, which ties in with Philo. So it is possible the Wise Men were of this prestigious Eastern school. This would account for Herod giving them an audience, and for his strong reaction to the news they brought."

Source: http://www.bethlehemstar.net/stage/stage.htm

Again I would say we need to understand the difference between astronomy and astrology if we want to go further on this..

The main point being that the constellations only serve as a "story" or "poetry" of the gospel in the stars. Nothing more nothing less...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Gman
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by Gman »

Another excellent source..

The Mazzeroth, The Gospel in the Stars
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by Gman »

I just created this gif that explains how the devil is hurled down to the earth (via the stars).

Revelation 12:8-9
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven (sky). 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

If we observe the constellation Draco looking north of Jerusalem from late September to early November from 6:00 pm to 2 am, the motion of the earth clearly casts the constellation Draco (the dragon) down to the earth.

Image
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Zebulon
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by Zebulon »

Thank you Gman for the time you spent for posting (again?) The Christmas Star. It got my full attention. I PDFed the last segments if you don't mind but I will probably PDF the whole thing if you still mind less :ewink: as soon as I finish re-reading it.

Talk to you then...

..and I would like to wish a very happy and healthy year 2010 to you and all the members of Evidence...

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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by Gman »

Thanks Zeb. I'm probably going stop posting on the post "The Christmas Star" for now but will begin new work on another post called Stars in the Bible (Gospel in the sky.)
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by Zebulon »

Ok Gman, I will meet you there... :wave:
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by cslewislover »

Gman wrote:
cslewislover wrote:I need to read up on some of this, for sure. So what do your sources say about the foundation of the constellations? That is, the stars seem all random out there, but constellation naming is ancient. So what is the basis for believing the constellation naming - the meaning behind them - is a type of revelation and not our own story-making; putting meaning and order on random things (like the positions of stars that we can see)? I'm very curious about this, and so yeah, I should read some sources on it.
Basically, as the story goes, it was revealed to Adam at the very beginning. The significance of the Hebrew zodiac goes way back however when each of the twelve tribes was assigned one of the twelve constellations. As an example tribe of Judah was the sign of Leo, tribe of Dan was Scorpio, etc in the OT.

I've outlined some of the sources here and here.

A lot of the source comes from the works of Bullinger, Seiss, Rolleston, and Martin. It's really nothing new... At least old news for me, I studied this stuff back in the 80's...
Ok. Can you tell me why the tribes were assigned constellations? I know you moved to the other thread and I'm going to read that one more too, but, frankly, I don't want to get too bogged down in reading a lot of sources right now, or technical things. I just saw the activity here and wanted to point my question and your answer out, ask you that one question, and say that I don't think what you're studying is astrology.

One definition, from the online Merriam-Webster, is: "2 : the divination of the supposed influences of the stars and planets on human affairs and terrestrial events by their positions and aspects." (The first definition was that it is archaic for astronomy.) I think this definition sums up well how "astronomy" is understood today by most people, and that's not what is going on here. And from what you're pointing out historically and biblically, Gman, the stars were used by the Jews for certain purposes that were blessed by God (correct?), and so there is indeed a difference between astrology and astronomy historically and biblically.

To me, it's looking at God's creation, but coupled with revelation. Without revelation, any story involving constellations is just fantasy. And as for knowing what the future holds, we only get that information from the bible, God's revealed word to us. I don't believe anyone here is trying to divine the future based on the stars.
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by Gman »

cslewislover wrote:Ok. Can you tell me why the tribes were assigned constellations? I know you moved to the other thread and I'm going to read that one more too, but, frankly, I don't want to get too bogged down in reading a lot of sources right now, or technical things. I just saw the activity here and wanted to point my question and your answer out, ask you that one question, and say that I don't think what you're studying is astrology.


Yes, from what I gather basically the 12 tribes were a reflection of the heavenly constellations. Kind of like a mirror of it on the earth Hebrews 8:5. Each tribe would camp around the tabernacle (see image) kind of functioning like a giant celestial clock to be read in a counterclockwise manner on the ground, Numbers 2:1-32. So basically it gave them a better framework to mark the 4 seasons and the times. But there is a prophetic reason for it too... Example the position of the tribe Judah or lion in the east where the messiah's star would arise Matthew 2:2. Jesus was also of the tribe of Judah, etc..

Interestingly enough, each tribe camped under these four banners or flags; some with Reuben a man (Aquarius), others with Dan an eagle (now Scorpio), others with Ephraim an ox (Taurus), and the rest with Judah a lion (Leo).

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cslewislover wrote:One definition, from the online Merriam-Webster, is: "2 : the divination of the supposed influences of the stars and planets on human affairs and terrestrial events by their positions and aspects." (The first definition was that it is archaic for astronomy.) I think this definition sums up well how "astronomy" is understood today by most people, and that's not what is going on here. And from what you're pointing out historically and biblically, Gman, the stars were used by the Jews for certain purposes that were blessed by God (correct?), and so there is indeed a difference between astrology and astronomy historically and biblically.


Yes... Basically astrology results in the worship of the self whereas biblical astronomy is used to express the worship of God and his salvation written in the stars. But they were also used to mark the seasons just like the other cultures..

cslewislover wrote:To me, it's looking at God's creation, but coupled with revelation. Without revelation, any story involving constellations is just fantasy. And as for knowing what the future holds, we only get that information from the bible, God's revealed word to us.


Yes, but it could also be used to tell a story or poem of God's salvation written in the stars explained throughout the year. Nothing really more than that.

cslewislover wrote:I don't believe anyone here is trying to divine the future based on the stars.
No I wouldn't think so.. We pretty much know what the future brings anyways.. God wins. ;)
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by cslewislover »

Thanks, G. It's all very interesting, and I'd like to read the article on the main site - obviously I haven't done that - that you say goes against this. It's hard for me to see why looking into these things is bad.
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by Gman »

cslewislover wrote:Thanks, G. It's all very interesting, and I'd like to read the article on the main site - obviously I haven't done that - that you say goes against this. It's hard for me to see why looking into these things is bad.
Yes.. The fact of the matter is that God uses signs all the time. This one happens to be with stars... I believe that many drop the ball on it because they automatically associate it with astrology..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by McMurdo »

Here is another question for you.. Why is it that only the magi could see the star?
Don't quite understand the question. Only the Magi followed the star because they had came to worship the Messiah Jesus as the King of the Jews and had the means and desire to do so. Maybe others saw it as well.

My main sticking point with your argument is, how can a star hover over a particular house to show where Jesus is? And yet this is what the passage says happened. A heavenly body of any type could not have done this.

McM :eugeek:
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by Gman »

McMurdo wrote:
Here is another question for you.. Why is it that only the magi could see the star?
Don't quite understand the question. Only the Magi followed the star because they had came to worship the Messiah Jesus as the King of the Jews and had the means and desire to do so. Maybe others saw it as well.
This is not confirmed in scripture... The magi had a clear understanding of the star patterns. That is why they understood what and where his star was. This is verified in Matthew 2:7.

Matthew 2:7

Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.

If this star could be seen by others then why did Herod have to ask them when it appeared?
McMurdo wrote:My main sticking point with your argument is, how can a star hover over a particular house to show where Jesus is? And yet this is what the passage says happened. A heavenly body of any type could not have done this.

McM :eugeek:
The answer is given in Matthew 2:4-6. Herod had to ask where Christ was born first.

Matthew 2:4-6
4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. 5And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Once they knew where Christ was born, they saw the star (the conjunction between Venus and Jupiter) and witnessed what is known as retrograde motion.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The Christmas Star

Post by Kurieuo »

Gman wrote:Just bumping up the Christmas star one last time...

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I thought this YouTube series was very interesting.. This is sponsored by http://tbn.org/

The Star of Bethlehem Part 1

The Star of Bethlehem Part 2

The Star of Bethlehem Part 3

The Star of Bethlehem Part 4

The Star of Bethlehem Part 5

The Star of Bethlehem Part 6

Source: http://www.bethlehemstar.com/
Purchased the DVD of this and watched it over Christmas. Found it very touching... particularly found the special feature moving which plays the view from the moon back to Earth during Christ's crucifixion and the heart of the lamb becomes eclipsed.
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