date of flood?

[bearbite]

Hi everyone,

Sorry, if this question has already been addressed. I would like to know when the Genesis Flood happened. I read it is within the 2000-3000 BC range, but then wouldn't this event be out of place with other records of history?

[Forum Monk]

Hi Bearbite,
This is a bit of a loaded question because it greatly depends on your world-view. Do you believe the flood was global or local, do you believe the biblical account accurately suggests a date, and do you believe other flood memories such as the Gigamesh Epic refer to "the" flood?

out of place with other records of history

What records of history are you talking about?

[bearbite]

Hi Bearbite,
This is a bit of a loaded question because it greatly depends on your world-view. Do you believe the flood was global or local, do you believe the biblical account accurately suggests a date, and do you believe other flood memories such as the Gigamesh Epic refer to "the" flood?

out of place with other records of history

What records of history are you talking about?

I believe in a local flood for now. I don't know if the biblical account accurately suggests a date, but I don't think the Gilgamesh Epic refers to the Flood. What do you think? By records of history, I mean...the Flood killed everyone (except Noah's family), right? But, there doesn't seem to be any extrabiblical evidence of that. I was thinking that the reason may just be it happened really early in history, which was why I asked for the date. My history is really bad , so I appreciate any advice you can give me.

[Forum Monk]

I think there are many extrabiblical accounts of the flood and the few survivors. But I will have to dig 'em up later and post them as it is late now and most of the research is on my other computer.

Many will be contained in the written records of the Sumerians, Akkadians and Babylonians, and many in the oral mythologies of dozens of cultures. I would say, when looking at the flood mythologies remember, some are retellings of stories they heard from missionaries and so may not be actual memories, some will be memories of local, small scale events, and some will be the "biblical" flood. Usually you can tell the difference by the common elements.

I will dig up and post some info.

[bearbite]

I will dig up and post some info.

Thanks, I appreciate that. What is the time frame of the Flood from an old earth view?

[Canuckster1127]

I will dig up and post some info.

Thanks, I appreciate that. What is the time frame of the Flood from an old earth view?

Most Old Earth proponents hold to a local flood. The timing would vary among some.

Here's a link to an article on our main page that deals with some of these issues and may be helpful. There are others there as well if you'd like to browse.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... flood.html

Blessings,

Bart

[Forum Monk]

Hi Canuckster,
Fancy meeting you on this thread. I had no intentions of discussing the relative short comings of local flood theory, as I wanted to simply supply bearbite with some info he was looking for and let him make up his own mind about things. The info I was intending to give also makes no statements whatsoever relative to the Biblical view. The referenced article you gave him is, in my humble opinion, seriously flawed and makes incredible logic leaps which are unwarranted.

These topics have been debated or presented already on this board, here:
http://www.godandscience.org/discussion ... a88be02bcd and here: http://www.godandscience.org/discussion ... a88be02bcd

The problem is, right now I don't have time to debunk local flood theology. I am spread too thin now. Perhaps later.

[Canuckster1127]

Well, you are certainly welcome to govern your time and manage your communications as you see fit and agree or disagree with the positions held forth on this board. I don't necessarily agree with all that is present, but it is fair to say I find most of it helpful and relevant to the discussions.

I feel free where resources are available from our main board to point them out both as a participant and a moderator of the forums.

If you wish to discuss them with me or others, please feel free.

Blessings,

Bart

[Forum Monk]

Bearbite,
The following quotations are taken from this site, which in my opinion is the most comprehensive collection of flood myths from around the world.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

I will point out a few in particular which have striking paralles with the Biblical account, which I assume you are already well acquainted.

A common theme also, is the idea of mankind or some great 'god' rising out of water or born of water. By many accounts these are the memorys of Noah and or his wife who came from the flood and peopled the world.

Greek:

The first race of people was completely destroyed because they were exceedingly wicked. The fountains of the deep opened, the rain fell in torrents, and the rivers and seas rose to cover the earth, killing all of them. Deucalion survived due to his prudence and piety and linked the first and second race of men. Onto a great ark he loaded his wives and children and all animals. The animals came to him, and by God's help, remained friendly for the duration of the flood. The flood waters escaped down a chasm opened in Hierapolis. [Frazer, pp. 153-154]

Celtic - often the Titans can be equated to the sons of Noah. Here are some deep themes and a confused memory

Heaven and Earth were great giants, and Heaven lay upon the Earth so that their children were crowded between them, and the children and their mother were unhappy in the darkness. The boldest of the sons led his brothers in cutting up Heaven into many pieces. From his skull they made the firmament. His spilling blood caused a great flood which killed all humans except a single pair, who were saved in a ship made by a beneficent Titan. The waters settled in hollows to become the oceans. The son who led in the mutilation of Heaven was a Titan and became their king, but the Titans and gods hated each other, and the king titan was driven from his throne by his son, who was born a god. That Titan at last went to the land of the departed. The Titan who built the ship, whom some consider to be the same as the king Titan, went there also. [Sproul, pp. 172-173]

Sumerian:

The gods had decided to destroy mankind. The god Enlil warned the priest-king Ziusudra ("Long of Life") of the coming flood by speaking to a wall while Ziusudra listened at the side. He was instructed to build a great ship and carry beasts and birds upon it. Violent winds came, and a flood of rain covered the earth for seven days and nights. Then Ziusudra opened a window in the large boat, allowing sunlight to enter, and he prostrated himself before the sun-god Utu. After landing, he sacrificed a sheep and an ox and bowed before Anu and Enlil. For protecting the animals and the seed of mankind, he was granted eternal life and taken to the country of Dilmun, where the sun rises. [Hammerly-Dupuy, p. 56; Heidel, pp. 102-106]

Egypt: (Osiris the egyptian 'god'/titan)

People have become rebellious. Atum said he will destroy all he made and return the earth to the Primordial Water which was its original state. Atum will remain, in the form of a serpent, with Osiris. [Faulkner, plate 30] (Unfortunately the version of the papyrus with the flood story is damaged and unclear. See also Budge, p. ccii.)

Assyrian:

The gods, led by Enlil, agreed to cleanse the earth of an overpopulated humanity, but Utnapishtim was warned by the god Ea in a dream. He and some craftsmen built a large boat (one acre in area, seven decks) in a week. He then loaded it with his family, the craftsmen, and "the seed of all living creatures." The waters of the abyss rose up, and it stormed for six days. Even the gods were frightened by the flood's fury. Upon seeing all the people killed, the gods repented and wept. The waters covered everything but the top of the mountain Nisur, where the boat landed. Seven days later, Utnapishtim released a dove, but it returned finding nowhere else to land. He next returned a sparrow, which also returned, and then a raven, which did not return. Thus he knew the waters had receded enough for the people to emerge. Utnapishtim made a sacrifice to the gods. He and his wife were given immortality and lived at the end of the earth. [Sandars, chpt. 5]

Chaldean - Chronos is a titan in other myths and actually a son. Here the account may be confused as Chronos is name of the one who warns the 'Noah' character Xisuthrus

The god Chronos in a vision warned Xisuthrus, the tenth king of Babylon, of a flood coming on the fifteenth day of the month of Daesius. The god ordered him to write a history and bury it in Sippara, and told him to build and provision a vessel (5 stadia by 2 stadia) for himself, his friends and relations, and all kinds of animals. Xisuthrus asked where he should sail, and Chronos answered, "to the gods, but first pray for all good things to men." Xisuthrus built a ship five furlongs by two furlongs and loaded it as ordered. After the flood had come and abated somewhat, he sent out some birds, which returned. Later, he tried again, and the birds returned with mud on their feet. On the third trial, the birds didn't return. He saw that land had appeared above the waters, so he parted some seams of his ship, saw the shore, and drove his ship aground in the Corcyraean mountains in Armenia. He disembarked with his wife, daughter, and pilot, and offered sacrifices to the gods. Those four were translated to live with the gods. The others at first were grieved when they could not find the four, but they heard Xisuthrus' voice in the air telling them to be pious and to seek his writings at Sippara. Part of the ship remains to this day, and some people make charms from its bitumen. [Frazer, pp. 108-110; G. Smith, pp. 42-43]

Masai (Africa):

Tumbainot, a righteous man, had a wife named Naipande and three sons, Oshomo, Bartimaro, and Barmao. When his brother Lengerni died, Tumbainot, according to custom, married the widow Nahaba-logunja, who bore him three more sons, but they argued about her refusal to give him a drink of milk in the evening, and she set up her own homestead. The world was heavily populated in those days, but the people were sinful and not mindful of God. However, they refrained from murder, until at last a man named Nambija hit another named Suage on the head. At this, God resolved to destroy mankind, except Tumbainot found grace in His eyes. God commanded Tumbainot to build an ark of wood and enter it with his two wives, six sons and their wives, and some of animals of every sort. When they were all aboard and provisioned, God caused a great long rain which caused a flood, and all other men and beasts drowned. The ark drifted for a long time, and provisions began to run low. The rain finally stopped, and Tumbainot let loose a dove to ascertain the state of the flood. The dove returned tired, so Tumbainot knew it had found no place to rest. Several days later, he loosed a vulture, but first he attached an arrow to one of its tail feathers so that, if the bird landed, the arrow would hook on something and be lost. The vulture returned that evening without the arrow, so Tumbainot reasoned that it must have landed on carrion, and that the flood was receding. When the water ran away, the ark grounded on the steppe, and its occupants disembarked. Tumbainot saw four rainbows, one in each quarter of the sky, signifying that God's wrath was over. [Frazer, pp. 330-331]

Altaic:

Tengys (Sea) was once lord over the earth. Nama, a good man, lived during his rule with three sons, Sozun-uul, Sar-uul, and Balyks. Ülgen commanded Nama to build an ark (kerep), but Nama's sight was failing, so he left the building to his sons. The ark was built on a mountain, and from it were hung eight 80-fathom cables with which to gauge water depth. Nama entered the ark with his family and the various animals and birds which had been driven there by the rising waters. Seven days later, the cables gave way from the earth, showing that the flood had risen 80 fathoms. Seven days later, Nama told his eldest son to open the window and look around, and the son saw only the summits of mountains. His father ordered him to look again later, and he saw only water and sky. At last the ark stopped in a group of eight mountains. On successive days, Nama released a raven, a crow, and a rook, none of which returned. On the fourth day, he sent out a dove, which returned with a birch twig and told why the other birds hadn't returned; they had found carcasses of a deer, dog, and horse respectively, and had stayed to feed on them. In anger, Nama cursed them to behave thus to the end of the world. When Nama became very old, his wife exhorted him to kill all the men and animals he had saved so that they, transferred to the other world, would be under his power. Nama didn't know what to do. Sozun-uul, who didn't dare to oppose his mother openly, told his father a story about seeing a blue-black cow devouring a human so only the legs were visible. Nama understood the fable and cleft his wife in two with his sword. Finally, Nama went to heaven, taking with him Sozun-uul and changing him into a constellation of five stars. [Holmberg, pp. 364-365]

Maori of New Zealand

Long ago, there were a great many different tribes, and they quarrelled and made war on each other. The worship of Tane, the creator, was being neglected and his doctrines denied. Two prophets, Para-whenua-mea and Tupu-nui-a-uta, taught the true doctrine about the separation of heaven and earth, but others just mocked them, and they became angry. So they built a large raft at the source of the Tohinga River, built a house on it, and provisioned it with fern-root, sweet potatoes, and dogs. Then they prayed for abundant rain to convince men of the power of Tane. Two men named Tiu and Reti, a woman named Wai-puna-hau, and other women also boarded the raft. Tiu was the priest on the raft, and he recited the prayers and incantations for rain. It rained hard for four or five days, until Tiu prayed for the rain to stop. But though the rain stopped, the waters still rose and bore the raft down the Tohinga river and onto the sea. In the eighth month, the waters began to thin; Tiu knew this by the signs of his staff. At last they landed at Hawaiki. The earth had been much changed by the flood, and the people on the raft were the only survivors. They worshipped Tane, Rangi (Heaven), Rehua, and all the gods, each at a separate alter. After making fire by friction, they made thanks-offerings of seaweed for their rescue. Today, only the chief priest may go to those holy spots. [Gaster, pp. 110-112; Kelsen, p. 133]

North and South America -
Thompson Indians:

A flood once covered all but the summits of some of the highest mountains. Its cause isn't certain, but it may have been made the the three brothers Qoaqlqal, who travelled the country transforming things until they themselves were transformed into stones. Three men escaped in a canoe and drifted to the Nzukeski Mountains, where they and their canoe were afterwards turned to stone; you may see them there today. Coyote survived by turning himself into a piece of wood and floating. When the flood subsided, leaving him in the Thompson River area, he resumed his normal shape. He took trees to be his wives, and from them the Indians are descended. The flood left lakes in the hollows of the mountains, streams flowing from them, and fish in them; none of these existed before the flood. [Frazer, p. 322]

Many north American Indian tales are striking but its not easy to tell if they are valid or missionary tales, in my opinion. You can definately see the missionary inlfuence on the Mexican and Central American legends.

Tamanaque:

In the time of the great flood, "the Age of Water," the sea broke against the Encamarada mountain chain, and people were forced into canoes. One man and one woman were saved on the high mountain called Tamanacu, on the banks of the Asiveru. After the flood, as they descended the mountain grieving the destruction of mankind, they heard a voice telling them to throw the fruits of the Mauritia palm over their heads behind them. People sprung from the kernels of these fruits, men from those thrown by the man, and women from those thrown by the woman. (This tradition occurs also in neighboring tribes.) [Gaster, p. 127; H. Miller, p. 285]

Inca:

Pictorial records of ancient Incan rulers show that a flood rose above the highest mountains. All created things perished, except for a man and woman who floated in a box. When the flood subsided, the floating box was driven by the wind to Tiahuanacu, about 200 miles from Cuzco, where the Creator told them to dwell. The Creator molded new people from clay at Tiahuanacu. On each figure, the Creator painted dress and hair style, and he gave each nation distinctive language, songs, and seeds to plant. When he had brought them to life, he ordered them into the earth to travel underground and emerge from caves, springs, tree trunks, etc. in their various homes. He then created the sun, moon, and stars. [Bierhorst, 1988, pp. 200,202; Gaster, p. 127; Frazer, p. 271]

This should convince you that the story is real and history attests to its veracity. If you need actual texts, they are readily available on the web.

[bearbite]

Thank you for the resources.

[Forum Monk]

Bear,
In an earlier post you stated the Epic of Gilgamesh was not about the flood. Gilgamesh was a semi-mythical (real King, tales about him considered mythical - i.e. he was 2/3 god, 1/3 human) king of Uruk (the Biblical Erech) who decides to take a journey to visit the great Utanapishtim (Noah) who lived to great age after survivng a flood. Gilgamesh wants to learn the secret of eternal life. Utanapishtim lived in the mountains of Mashu (where the ark landed by Akkadian accounts of the flood). Before the flood, Utanapishtim was the king of Shuruppak. The following excerpts are from Tablet 11 of the Epic: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mes ... gilgamesh/

Utanapishtim spoke to Gilgamesh, saying:
...
O man of Shuruppak, son of Ubartutu:
Tear down the house and build a boat!
Abandon wealth and seek living beings!
Spurn possessions and keep alive living beings!
Make all living beings go up into the boat.
The boat which you are to build,
its dimensions must measure equal to each other:
its length must correspond to its width.
Roof it over like the Apsu.
...
I laid out its (interior) structure and drew a picture of it (?).
I provided it with six decks,
thus dividing it into seven (levels).
The inside of it I divided into nine (compartments).
I drove plugs (to keep out) water in its middle part.
I saw to the punting poles and laid in what was necessary.
Three times 3,600 (units) of raw bitumen I poured into the
bitumen kiln,
three times 3,600 (units of) pitch ...into it,
there were three times 3,600 porters of casks who carried (vege-
table) oil,
apart from the 3,600 (units of) oil which they consumed (!)
and two times 3,600 (units of) oil which the boatman stored
away.
...
Whatever I had I loaded on it:
whatever silver I had I loaded on it,
whatever gold I had I loaded on it.
All the living beings that I had I loaded on it,
I had all my kith and kin go up into the boat,
all the beasts and animals of the field and the craftsmen I
had go up.
...
The... land shattered like a... pot.
All day long the South Wind blew ...,
blowing fast, submerging the mountain in water,
overwhelming the people like an attack.
No one could see his fellow,
they could not recognize each other in the torrent.
The gods were frightened by the Flood,
and retreated, ascending to the heaven of Anu.
The gods were cowering like dogs, crouching by the outer wall.
...
Six days and seven nights
came the wind and flood, the storm flattening the land.
When the seventh day arrived, the storm was pounding,
the flood was a war--struggling with itself like a woman
writhing (in labor).
The sea calmed, fell still, the whirlwind (and) flood stopped up.
I looked around all day long--quiet had set in
and all the human beings had turned to clay!
The terrain was as flat as a roof.
I opened a vent and fresh air (daylight!) fell upon the side of
my nose.
I fell to my knees and sat weeping,
tears streaming down the side of my nose.
I looked around for coastlines in the expanse of the sea,
and at twelve leagues there emerged a region (of land).
On Mt. Nimush the boat lodged firm,
Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway.
...
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a swallow and released it.
The swallow went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.
Then I sent out everything in all directions and sacrificed
(a sheep).
I offered incense in front of the mountain-ziggurat.

So, regarding the question of a date...I haven't help you. When you find the dates on these accounts, you can be sure the actual flood happened before they were recorded. But then again, that is no big help because, if the flood occured before writing was invented, there's no telling how long the tradition was passed down orally before finally pressed into a clay tablet.