Kurieuo wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:54 pm
DBowling wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:35 pm
Kurieuo wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:40 am
DBowling wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:48 am
The question for me is...
If Moses believed that other humans existed prior to Adam and Eve (Genesis 1-2 sequence, mark of Cain, Cain's wife, land of Nod, city of Enoch) then why shouldn't we just accept what Moses believed regarding pre-Adamic humanity?
Yes, fact is we really don't know what Moses believed, and so can only go by the writing. For someone who accepts (1) Adam and Eve are placed in Neolithic period, and (2) humans existed (immediately) prior or co-existed -- there are really two options.
That is again either to (1) develop a new system of understanding everything especially doctrines of a soteriological and christological nature (e.g., how does one fit in original sin), and in a way that is convincing. Even if one takes a nuanced version of original sin, whether you're talking Augustine, Aquinas or whatever, it really is thick the belief that all are in Adam. Why is that? And can Pre-Adamic believers overcome these reasons successfully?
At the moment, I don't buy into the premise of 'pre-adamic believers'.
The primary reason is found in Genesis 3.
When Adam and Eve sinned, Genesis 3 tells us two significant things happened:
1. Genesis 3:7 (Gen 3:5) - "the eyes of both of them were opened"
2. Genesis 3:22 (Gen 3:5) - "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil"
This indicates that prior to the Fall, Adam and Eve did not "know good and evil". And it took an act of illumination of some sort (their eyes were opened) for Adam and Eve to be able to "know good and evil".
And of course Romans 5:12 tells us that sin entered the world of mankind through Adam, which is consistent with the Genesis 3 premise that prior to the Fall, mankind did not know good and evil.
With "pre-Adamic believers" I was more meaning in the above instance those who theologically believe in pre/co-existing humans to Adam and Eve.
Nonetheless interesting points made. Would you believe when Adam and Eve sinned that they inherited a greater consciousness (i.e., such as understanding morality) which would have distinguished them from other humans in existence?
I think it would be similar to (but not identical to) development in humans today.
When an infant is born he is an image bearer of God, he has an eternal soul, but he does not have a relationship with God, and he does not "know good from evil".
At some point in time that infant will develop to a point spiritually (I did not say intellectually, but there is probably some relationship between the two) where that person "knows good from evil" and is able to have a personal relationship with God.
So I would probably link the "knowledge of good and evil" and "having the law written in their hearts" (Romans 2:15) with the ability to have a personal relationship with God.
One other related note...
I do not think it is mere coincidence that the cradle of human civilization (Neolithic Mesopotamia) occurs at the same place and time as the Biblical Adam and Eve.
One defining aspect of Jesus (who was also human and yet extra-Adamic if you will) was that He was such by incarnation and not via generation from Adam and Eve who fell.
I believe that Luke 3 makes a specific point that Jesus was the culmination of the line of the "sons of God" that began with the first "son of God", Adam (Luke 3:38).
Lineages were important to the identifying the Jewish Messiah, but interesting point nonetheless.
Are you then saying that Jesus inherited Adam's broken human nature? A push back would be Luke is via Mary's lineage in Luke 3:38. Yet, we understand Joseph was Jesus' legal father, and so the incarnation resolves the issue of Jesus inheriting a fallen human nature.
What do you believe here?
I believe that Jesus inherited his 'human' nature from his mother Mary who was a physical descendant of Adam and Eve.
I believe that Jesus' Spirit was of Divine origin. Thus he was fully man and fully God. Since Jesus' Spirit was Divine, it was untainted by sin. However, since Jesus was also fully human he still had to deal with frailties, suffering, and temptations that humans regularly face.