Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#16

Post by Stu » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:45 am

Just a quick word on Heiser. You know that he says that the Bible teaches a flat earth and that the Hebrews believed that the earth was flat, immovable and had a solid firmament encompassing the entire earth.

Let me just add though that while he does teach that, he doesn't hold to that view himself, he just thought that God told that to a bunch of ignorant sheep herders or some such reasoning.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#17

Post by DBowling » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:30 am

Stu wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:45 am
Just a quick word on Heiser. You know that he says that the Bible teaches a flat earth and that the Hebrews believed that the earth was flat, immovable and had a solid firmament encompassing the entire earth.

Let me just add though that while he does teach that, he doesn't hold to that view himself, he just thought that God told that to a bunch of ignorant sheep herders or some such reasoning.
I disagree...

It is true that the ancient Hebrew culture did not have a 21st century cosmology.
Their cosmology was a function of their culture and surrounding cultures, not a result the explicit teaching of Scripture.

God did choose to communicate with Israel using terms and imagery that were understandable with their cultural and cosmological paradigms.
However, that is very different from claiming that the Bible 'taught' that the earth was flat.

Heiser would disagree with me on this, but I believe that in Scripture God also chose to use terms and imagery that could be interpreted as consistent with cultural and cosmological paradigms throughout history up to and including the present.

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#18

Post by RickD » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:04 am

Here’s Heiser’s own words:
https://drmsh.com/christians-who-believ ... than-this/

Heiser believes that the Bible teaches that the earth is flat and round.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#19

Post by Philip » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:12 am

DB: God did choose to communicate with Israel using terms and imagery that were understandable with their cultural and cosmological paradigms. However, that is very different from claiming that the Bible 'taught' that the earth was flat.
Yes, God never has used something that was false to teach something that was or is true. But it is key to know whether a passage is speaking of literal things or meanings - or not (as not ALL is meant to be taken literally). But even where it is not meant literally, it is also important to not read into it things we simply cannot know. We simply can't read modern scientific DETAILS into the Bible, although there are general understandings that Scripture gave the ancients that we can see line up well with science (for instance, the universe and earth had beginnings, and once did not exist).

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#20

Post by Stu » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:15 am

DBowling wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:30 am
Stu wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:45 am
Just a quick word on Heiser. You know that he says that the Bible teaches a flat earth and that the Hebrews believed that the earth was flat, immovable and had a solid firmament encompassing the entire earth.

Let me just add though that while he does teach that, he doesn't hold to that view himself, he just thought that God told that to a bunch of ignorant sheep herders or some such reasoning.
I disagree...

It is true that the ancient Hebrew culture did not have a 21st century cosmology.
Their cosmology was a function of their culture and surrounding cultures, not a result the explicit teaching of Scripture.

God did choose to communicate with Israel using terms and imagery that were understandable with their cultural and cosmological paradigms.
However, that is very different from claiming that the Bible 'taught' that the earth was flat.

Heiser would disagree with me on this, but I believe that in Scripture God also chose to use terms and imagery that could be interpreted as consistent with cultural and cosmological paradigms throughout history up to and including the present.
Don't want to get too involved as I'm busy researching the topic but the Bible is full of flat earth terminology.
Here are just a few quotes, there are many more.
Psalm 93
The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
Psalm 10:5
He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
1 Chronicles 16:30
Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.
Job 38:14
The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Clay under a seal is flat.
Genesis 1:6-8
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Note that the lights are IN the firmament. That is pretty clear.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#21

Post by Stu » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:25 am

RickD wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:04 am
Here’s Heiser’s own words:
https://drmsh.com/christians-who-believ ... than-this/

Heiser believes that the Bible teaches that the earth is flat and round.
So Heiser doesn't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and parts were written by ignorant man??
What then of:
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
From that article:
It just happens that the people he chose to produce this thing we call the Bible didn’t know that. And God couldn’t have cared less. The writers God used to produce the Bible were not inspired to write about things of the natural world that were beyond their own worldview and knowledge base. And to argue (as normal 24-hour day creationists do) that God gave them advanced scientific knowledge, or that such advanced knowledge is encrypted in the biblical text, means that what they wrote could never have communicated that important knowledge to their original audience (or any audience prior to recent centuries).
Adam and Eve weren't stupid and neither were people in the Bible, if you had told them the way things were they would have got it.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#22

Post by DBowling » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:33 am

I see a lot of figures of speech that are no more or less technically accurate than...
"the sun rises in the east and sets in the west"

But I don't see anything in those figures of speech that state that the earth is flat.
Just like everyone who uses the phrase "the sun rises in the east and sets in the west" is not claiming that that the sun orbits the earth.

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#23

Post by Stu » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:41 am

DBowling wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:33 am
I see a lot of figures of speech that are no more or less technically accurate than...
"the sun rises in the east and sets in the west"

But I don't see anything in those figures of speech that state that the earth is flat.
Just like everyone who uses the phrase "the sun rises in the east and sets in the west" is not claiming that that the sun orbits the earth.
It states that the earth is immovable on it's foundations, that is part of the flat earth theory. Whatever it is it is not compatible with heliocentrism.
Psalm 93
The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
Are you really saying that the above is saying anything other than the earth is immovable?

And what of the following:
Genesis 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Here it says that the lights are IN the firmament. It's clear as day.

Like Hesier says, the Bible in many instances says flat stationary earth but he just doesn't believe it.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#24

Post by DBowling » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:14 am

Stu wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:41 am
DBowling wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:33 am
I see a lot of figures of speech that are no more or less technically accurate than...
"the sun rises in the east and sets in the west"

But I don't see anything in those figures of speech that state that the earth is flat.
Just like everyone who uses the phrase "the sun rises in the east and sets in the west" is not claiming that that the sun orbits the earth.
It states that the earth is immovable on it's foundations, that is part of the flat earth theory. Whatever it is it is not compatible with heliocentrism.
Saying that the earth is immovable on its foundations is a figure of speech
Just like "the sun rises in the east and sets in the west" is a figure of speech.
Psalm 93
The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
Are you really saying that the above is saying anything other than the earth is immovable?
Saying that the earth is immovable is a figure of speech.
Just like "the sun rises in the east and sets in the west" is a figure of speech.
And what of the following:
Genesis 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Here it says that the lights are IN the firmament. It's clear as day.
Last time I looked outside there were lights in the firmament/sky.
... plain as day... :)

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#25

Post by Philip » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:42 am

Stu, look at a kid riding a merry-go-round horse - he's fixed to the horse, even if it's going up and down, and then that is going round and round. If you had a small wind-up merry-go-round on the back of a moving truck - same thing - the riders are fixed to their horses, up and down, round and round, yet now while going down the road in the back of a truck. But the merry-go-round on the back of the truck is fixed in place despite going down the road (similar to how the universe is expanding. It's all relative but doesn't change the fixed point or rotation of the earth. And figures of speech are abundant across Scripture and our own modern speech.

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#26

Post by Stu » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:45 am

DBowling wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:14 am
Stu wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:41 am
DBowling wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:33 am
I see a lot of figures of speech that are no more or less technically accurate than...
"the sun rises in the east and sets in the west"

But I don't see anything in those figures of speech that state that the earth is flat.
Just like everyone who uses the phrase "the sun rises in the east and sets in the west" is not claiming that that the sun orbits the earth.
It states that the earth is immovable on it's foundations, that is part of the flat earth theory. Whatever it is it is not compatible with heliocentrism.
Saying that the earth is immovable on its foundations is a figure of speech
Just like "the sun rises in the east and sets in the west" is a figure of speech.
Psalm 93
The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
Are you really saying that the above is saying anything other than the earth is immovable?
Saying that the earth is immovable is a figure of speech.
Just like "the sun rises in the east and sets in the west" is a figure of speech.
And what of the following:
Genesis 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Here it says that the lights are IN the firmament. It's clear as day.
Last time I looked outside there were lights in the firmament/sky.
... plain as day... :)
I disagree, saying something is immovable is very different to the example you are giving and the Bible says it over and over not just once. Seems to be a pattern. Patterns are telling.

You seem to be giving figure of speech to even the creation in Genesis now.

Reread it.
Genesis 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
It is quite clear that it is saying the lights are IN the firmament.

What is the firmament in your opinion?

And, answer me this. What of when Joshua commanded the sun to stand still??

According to the heliocentric model the earth would have had to stop spinning, which might have just caused a little bit of chaos....
But according to the flat earth model it makes perfect sense.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#27

Post by Stu » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:48 am

Philip wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:42 am
Stu, look at a kid riding a merry-go-round horse - he's fixed to the horse, even if it's going up and down, and then that is going round and round. If you had a small wind-up merry-go-round on the back of a moving truck - same thing - the riders are fixed to their horses, up and down, round and round, yet now while going down the road in the back of a truck. But the merry-go-round on the back of the truck is fixed in place despite going down the road (similar to how the universe is expanding. It's all relative but doesn't change the fixed point or rotation of the earth. And figures of speech are abundant across Scripture and our own modern speech.
But that is not what the Bible says it says that IT is fixed and immovable, not that it is fixed to something else that is spinning or moving. The earth itself is fixed and immovable.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#28

Post by DBowling » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:52 am

Stu wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:48 am
Philip wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:42 am
Stu, look at a kid riding a merry-go-round horse - he's fixed to the horse, even if it's going up and down, and then that is going round and round. If you had a small wind-up merry-go-round on the back of a moving truck - same thing - the riders are fixed to their horses, up and down, round and round, yet now while going down the road in the back of a truck. But the merry-go-round on the back of the truck is fixed in place despite going down the road (similar to how the universe is expanding. It's all relative but doesn't change the fixed point or rotation of the earth. And figures of speech are abundant across Scripture and our own modern speech.
But that is not what the Bible says it says that IT is fixed and immovable, not that it is fixed to something else that is spinning or moving. The earth itself is fixed and immovable.
As Phillip points out, the earth is fixed and immovable from the perspective of everything that exists on the earth.
Which btw includes all of us.

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#29

Post by DBowling » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:55 am

Stu wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:45 am

Reread it.
Genesis 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
It is quite clear that it is saying the lights are IN the firmament.
That's because there are lights in the firmament/sky.
What is the firmament in your opinion?
The sky

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Re: Dr. Mike Heiser on Noah's Flood

#30

Post by RickD » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:40 pm

RickD wrote: ↑
Here’s Heiser’s own words:
https://drmsh.com/christians-who-believ ... than-this/

Heiser believes that the Bible teaches that the earth is flat and round.
stu wrote:
So Heiser doesn't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and parts were written by ignorant man??
I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion, from what I posted. While I don’t always agree with Heiser, I don’t think it’s accurate to say that he doesn’t believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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