Who Knows

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Re: Who Knows

#16

Post by RickD » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:15 am

EssentialSacrifice wrote:
...His death is sufficient to pay for your sins if you will put your faith in Him...
In a nutshell, this specifically, is what the difference is between biblical Christianity, and universalism.

I don’t seem to have any disagreement with what you’ve stated. And of course I don’t have any disagreement with the scripture that you posted.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Who Knows

#17

Post by Philip » Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:20 pm

It's right there!

John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

John 8:21: "So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

And to note: Believing is NOT simply an intellectual acknowledgement - but one of commitment and desire to recognize Jesus as one's Lord!

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Re: Who Knows

#18

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:14 am

Rickd:
In a nutshell, within universalism, is the belief that Christ’s sacrifice atones for all people, regardless of whether or not they believe in him.
Of course, that’s not biblical Christianity.
I didn’t get Stu saying anything other than if all men go to heaven regardless then why the sacrifice of Christ on the cross if we’re all just meeting up later anyway.

What is the/your biblical Christian belief on Christ's sacrifice per individual? How is it supported ?

Rickd:
I’m not sure if you’re referring to universalism, but if you are, you’re misrepresenting universalism.
I don't think Stu was referencing Universalism, but here gives a more complete view of the Universalism religion:

In his Plain Guide to Universalism, the universalist Thomas Wittemore wrote,
"The sentiment by which Universalists are distinguished,

is this: that at last every individual of the human race shall become holy and happy.

This does not comprise the whole of their faith, but, merely that feature of it which is peculiar to them and by which they are distinguished from the rest of the world."[7]

The remaining central beliefs of Christian universalism are compatible with Christianity in general:
God is the loving Parent of all people, see Love of God.

Jesus Christ reveals the nature and character of God and is the spiritual leader of humankind, see New Covenant.

Humankind is created with an immortal soul which death does not end—or a mortal soul that shall be resurrected and/or preserved by God—and which God will not wholly destroy.[8]

Sin has negative consequences for the sinner either in this life or the afterlife. All of God's punishments for sin are corrective and remedial.

In 1899 the Universalist General Convention, later called the Universalist Church of America, adopted the Five Principles: the belief in God, belief in Jesus Christ, the immortality of the human soul, that sinful actions have consequence, and .[9] universal reconciliation

The inclusion of theosis as a sixth point is found in the statement of faith adopted in 2007 by the Christian Universalist Association.[10] In the context of Christian universalism, theosis— which can be translated as divinization or the process of being made more God-like—means to be made more Christ-like, or that all souls will ultimately be reconciled and conformed to the image of the glorified resurrected Christ.

"Plain Guide to Universalism Chapter 2, Paragraph 1".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: Who Knows

#19

Post by RickD » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:33 pm

EssentialSacrifice wrote:
I didn’t get Stu saying anything other than if all men go to heaven regardless then why the sacrifice of Christ on the cross if we’re all just meeting up later anyway.
According to universalism, at least the christianized kind, Christ’s sacrifice is precisely what makes it possible for all to go to heaven.
What is the/your biblical Christian belief on Christ's sacrifice per individual? How is it supported ?

I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking. Christ died and rose again for the sins of the world. And, whosoever believes in him, shall have eternal life.

Universalism isn’t biblical, for the simple reason of John 3:16.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Who Knows

#20

Post by Philip » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:53 pm

"According to universalism, at least the christianized kind, Christ’s sacrifice is precisely what makes it possible for all to go to heaven."
Obviously, the key word being "possible" - as opposed to it being "a given."

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Re: Who Knows

#21

Post by RickD » Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:41 pm

Philip wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:53 pm
"According to universalism, at least the christianized kind, Christ’s sacrifice is precisely what makes it possible for all to go to heaven."
Obviously, the key word being "possible" - as opposed to it being "a given."
I’m just speaking about doctrine.

Universalism doctrine says-Christ died for the sins of the world; therefore, ALL go to heaven.

Biblical Christianity doctrine says-Christ died for the sins of the world; therefore, ALL WHO BELIEVE IN HIM go to heaven.
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Philip (Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:52 am)
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Who Knows

#22

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:04 am

Rick:
Universalism doctrine says-Christ died for the sins of the world; therefore, ALL go to heaven.
Biblical Christianity doctrine says-Christ died for the sins of the world; therefore, ALL WHO BELIEVE IN HIM go to heaven.
I’m just speaking about doctrine.
We’re in lock step here. Universalists, no matter how similar to Christianity are not Christians because of their “ at last every individual of the human race shall become holy and happy. “ This is not biblical.

I do not understand how you arrived at the conclusion this Stu person was talking Universalism when IMO all was said it makes no sense God would hang himself on the cross (as payment for sins) when personal payment doesn’t matter if you sin, and all go to heaven regardless. And I fear maybe, now the path Mel takes.
Rick:
n a nutshell, within universalism, is the belief that Christ’s sacrifice atones for all people, regardless of whether or not they believe in him. Of course, that’s not biblical Christianity.
This I don’t understand when I gave you all those biblical verses stating exactly so. Philip, you needn’t shout … within that very same verse (which I already provided) is another exclamation Jesus died for all.
(ps, I also went back and highlighted the passage partial to my point in case you glossed over in your first reading)

You fixate on those who will be saved and confuse them with all man. Certainly the elect will be the ones in heaven but Christ has done sufficient for the salvation of all, and if they are not saved, it is the fault, not of him, but of those that did not receive his word.
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: Who Knows

#23

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:11 am

Sorry, can't highlight partial post as I cannot edit.
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: Who Knows

#24

Post by RickD » Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:49 am

ES wrote:
We’re in lock step here. Universalists, no matter how similar to Christianity are not Christians because of their “ at last every individual of the human race shall become holy and happy. “ This is not biblical.
While I agree with you that their doctrine isn’t biblical, I don’t necessarily agree that universalists aren’t Christians. Universalists can believe/trust in Christ, despite their doctrine.
ES wrote:
I do not understand how you arrived at the conclusion this Stu person was talking Universalism when IMO all was said it makes no sense God would hang himself on the cross (as payment for sins) when personal payment doesn’t matter if you sin, and all go to heaven regardless. And I fear maybe, now the path Mel takes.
I never said that Stu was talking about universalism, that’s why I said:
“I’m not sure if you’re referring to universalism...”
ES wrote:
This I don’t understand when I gave you all those biblical verses stating exactly so. Philip, you needn’t shout … within that very same verse (which I already provided) is another exclamation Jesus died for all.
(ps, I also went back and highlighted the passage partial to my point in case you glossed over in your first reading)

You fixate on those who will be saved and confuse them with all man. Certainly the elect will be the ones in heaven but Christ has done sufficient for the salvation of all, and if they are not saved, it is the fault, not of him, but of those that did not receive his word.
I’m not sure how you didn’t understand. Scripture says that those that believe in Christ have eternal life. Universalism says everyone has eternal life.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Who Knows

#25

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:56 pm

Yeah, just going to leave Universalism alone. We are talking past one another. Just let Stu iron out his meaning if he returns. I don’t think his thoughts had anything what-so-ever to do with Universalism. That was your questioning contribution.
Rick:
In a nutshell, within universalism, Christianity is the belief that Christ’s sacrifice atones for all people, regardless of whether or not they believe in him. Of course, that’s not biblical Christianity.
This is the conclusion I was referring to; not understanding how you arrive at this conclusion especially when I gave verses in support of all men, not just believers.

again … You fixate on those who will be saved and confuse them with all man. Certainly the elect will be the ones in heaven, saved, but Christ has done sufficient for the salvation of all, and if they are not saved, it is the fault, not of him, but of those that did not receive his word…

and obviously that goes for all who hear his voice and harden not their hearts to salvation.
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: Who Knows

#26

Post by Storyteller » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:32 pm

I always think of the story of the lost sheep. Christ went out to look for, and save, the one last, lost lamb.
How much more lost can a "lamb" be than in hell? What if, just if, God goes out for that last, lost lamb?
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Who Knows

#27

Post by RickD » Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:03 pm

EssentialSacrifice wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:56 pm
Yeah, just going to leave Universalism alone. We are talking past one another. Just let Stu iron out his meaning if he returns. I don’t think his thoughts had anything what-so-ever to do with Universalism. That was your questioning contribution.
Rick:
In a nutshell, within universalism, Christianity is the belief that Christ’s sacrifice atones for all people, regardless of whether or not they believe in him. Of course, that’s not biblical Christianity.
This is the conclusion I was referring to; not understanding how you arrive at this conclusion especially when I gave verses in support of all men, not just believers.

again … You fixate on those who will be saved and confuse them with all man. Certainly the elect will be the ones in heaven, saved, but Christ has done sufficient for the salvation of all, and if they are not saved, it is the fault, not of him, but of those that did not receive his word…

and obviously that goes for all who hear his voice and harden not their hearts to salvation.
I’m sorry, I have no idea what you’re trying to say here.

I agree that Christ’s atoning work is sufficient for all men. And I never said that it’s Christ's fault if someone isn’t saved, so I don’t know what you’re trying to say there.

I honestly don’t know what your point is, or even if we have a disagreement on this.

Edit: okay, after reading my quote that you edited again, I think I could’ve worded it better. Christ’s sacrifice atones for all people, whether or not they believe in him. But only those who believe in him, are saved.

Does that clarify it better? I didn’t mean to imply that Christ’s atoning Work was only sufficient for those who believe.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Who Knows

#28

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:12 pm

Rick:
Edit: okay, after reading my quote that you edited again, I think I could’ve worded it better. Christ’s sacrifice atones for all people, whether or not they believe in him. But only those who believe in him, are saved.

Does that clarify it better? I didn’t mean to imply that Christ’s atoning Work was only sufficient for those who believe.
Of course it does and...

I didn't think you meant to imply otherwise, so to clarify... I needed to hear it from the horses mouth.
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: Who Knows

#29

Post by RickD » Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:25 pm

EssentialSacrifice wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:12 pm
Rick:
Edit: okay, after reading my quote that you edited again, I think I could’ve worded it better. Christ’s sacrifice atones for all people, whether or not they believe in him. But only those who believe in him, are saved.

Does that clarify it better? I didn’t mean to imply that Christ’s atoning Work was only sufficient for those who believe.
Of course it does and...

I didn't think you meant to imply otherwise, so to clarify... I needed to hear it from the horses mouth.
Thanks for pushing me on this, it needed to be clarified. Sorry again for the confusion.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Who Knows

#30

Post by Philip » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:31 am

Storyteller wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:32 pm
I always think of the story of the lost sheep. Christ went out to look for, and save, the one last, lost lamb.
How much more lost can a "lamb" be than in hell? What if, just if, God goes out for that last, lost lamb?
NO! The ONLY reason a person would be in temporary Hell is they await judgment. Those dying in Christ are immediately in the arms of the Lord. There are NO second chances. This is what Scripture teaches. And, BTW, one does not need to know of Jesus to be found guilty of rejecting God!

Hebrews 9:27: And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment

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