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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:58 pm
by claysmithr
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
claysmithr wrote:Jesus taught the Resurrection of the Dead, and he proved it by resurrecting Lazarus and himself from the Dead.

Without Jesus, there is no Resurrection of the dead.

The Resurrection of the Dead

But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith. In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised.

For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men.


Without the Resurrection of the Dead, we all enter eternal death aka the void. It's the end forever, and life was ultimately pointless and about hedonistic pleasures. There is no Hell, but there is no Heaven either, and no judgement.

With Jesus, we have the Resurrection of the Dead, which promises perfect judgement upon humanity. For those clothed in Jesus, Heaven, for a large majority that reject, Hell.

While I do not like the idea of Hell, or so many people going there, I do like the promise of Heaven! Eternal joy! That means that life isn't pointless, and that there is meaning in the universe, and that meaning is to worship Jesus! The Resurrection and the life! :)

Therefore, I will stick to Jesus, because without him, there is no hope!


Are you under the impression that those who do not stick with Jesus have no hope?



You have no hope as an atheist because the atheistic world view just leads to death.How is there hope in that? Death? Boring! We already experience death, and yet that is what is your future is if atheism is true.There is no hope in that no matter how you might spin it. You live, you die,and thats it? Nothing more? And no justice? No rewards? Just death? Hope? How?


Yes, this is exactly it. If eternal death is the endgame for all life, then the unborn basically miss nothing compared to the born, besides a small blip of existence. No meaning, no justice, no mercy, no hope, complete insignificance.

However, by rising from the dead and teaching the Resurrection of the Dead, Jesus gives us hope for eternal life. We were never meant to die, but sin entered the world. Jesus conquered our sin on the Cross, giving us access to eternal life for those that believe.

The fact is, God is planning on raising even the wicked. However, they will be raised to eternal condemnation, with maggots forever feasting on their flesh and the wrath of God consuming them as a burning fire.

Matthew 10:28 - Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Unbelief itself is a sin, and exposed as a sin in John Piper's book "Battling Unbelief"

The fact is, there is plenty of evidence for the God of the Bible, from the prophesied destruction of Tyre to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

Praise and honor and glory be to the one who was, is, and is to come!

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:13 pm
by crochet1949
Very well put :esmile:

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:43 pm
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote:Hi Kenny, if I may ask:
What do you think happens to energy?


I am by no means an expert on the subject, but if I recall correctly, one of the laws of thermodynamics (can’t remember which one at the moment) states that energy can't be created nor destroyed. And energy can convert to mass, and mass can convert to energy.

Ken

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:26 pm
by Kenny
claysmithr wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
claysmithr wrote:Jesus taught the Resurrection of the Dead, and he proved it by resurrecting Lazarus and himself from the Dead.

Without Jesus, there is no Resurrection of the dead.

The Resurrection of the Dead

But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith. In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised.

For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men.


Without the Resurrection of the Dead, we all enter eternal death aka the void. It's the end forever, and life was ultimately pointless and about hedonistic pleasures. There is no Hell, but there is no Heaven either, and no judgement.

With Jesus, we have the Resurrection of the Dead, which promises perfect judgement upon humanity. For those clothed in Jesus, Heaven, for a large majority that reject, Hell.

While I do not like the idea of Hell, or so many people going there, I do like the promise of Heaven! Eternal joy! That means that life isn't pointless, and that there is meaning in the universe, and that meaning is to worship Jesus! The Resurrection and the life! :)

Therefore, I will stick to Jesus, because without him, there is no hope!


Are you under the impression that those who do not stick with Jesus have no hope?



You have no hope as an atheist because the atheistic world view just leads to death.How is there hope in that? Death? Boring! We already experience death, and yet that is what is your future is if atheism is true.There is no hope in that no matter how you might spin it. You live, you die,and thats it? Nothing more? And no justice? No rewards? Just death? Hope? How?


Yes, this is exactly it. If eternal death is the endgame for all life, then the unborn basically miss nothing compared to the born, besides a small blip of existence. No meaning, no justice, no mercy, no hope, complete insignificance.


If Paradise is the end game for you, why not end it all right now? Not suicide, (I’m sure there is something the good book that makes it a sin) but martyrdom. Simply purchase a one way ticket to any one of those Middle East Asian Countries where Sharia law is practiced, go to any street corner, or public place and preach the Gospel to the Heathens, and be sure to explain everything that is wrong with Muhammad. Not only would your quick death get you to Heaven, but you will die a martyr doing what Jesus instructed you to do; spreading the gospel where it is most needed!

For me death is not an end game of life, death is an unfortunate unavoidable reality. You mention no meaning, no justice, no mercy, no hope, complete insignificance? If someone lives their life that way, that is their choice; but I bring meaning, love, hope, and much more to my life. Knowing that I will some day die, is what creates the commitment I bring to life. The desire to love, the focus needed to accomplish, the urgency to make a difference now before it’s too late, because I know If I always had the option of waiting till tomorrow, nothing will ever get done.

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:29 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Hi Kenny, if I may ask:
What do you think happens to energy?


I am by no means an expert on the subject, but if I recall correctly, one of the laws of thermodynamics (can’t remember which one at the moment) states that energy can't be created nor destroyed. And energy can convert to mass, and mass can convert to energy.

Ken


So energy exists, infinitely?

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:36 am
by Byblos
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Hi Kenny, if I may ask:
What do you think happens to energy?


I am by no means an expert on the subject, but if I recall correctly, one of the laws of thermodynamics (can’t remember which one at the moment) states that energy can't be created nor destroyed. And energy can convert to mass, and mass can convert to energy.

Ken


Not it all systems, only in closed ones.

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:37 am
by Kenny
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Hi Kenny, if I may ask:
What do you think happens to energy?


I am by no means an expert on the subject, but if I recall correctly, one of the laws of thermodynamics (can’t remember which one at the moment) states that energy can't be created nor destroyed. And energy can convert to mass, and mass can convert to energy.

Ken


Not it all systems, only in closed ones.

Do you know of any open systems where energy is created or destroyed?

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:39 am
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Hi Kenny, if I may ask:
What do you think happens to energy?


I am by no means an expert on the subject, but if I recall correctly, one of the laws of thermodynamics (can’t remember which one at the moment) states that energy can't be created nor destroyed. And energy can convert to mass, and mass can convert to energy.

Ken


So energy exists, infinitely?

I guess so; but that question is a little above my pay grade.

K

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:48 am
by RickD
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Hi Kenny, if I may ask:
What do you think happens to energy?


I am by no means an expert on the subject, but if I recall correctly, one of the laws of thermodynamics (can’t remember which one at the moment) states that energy can't be created nor destroyed. And energy can convert to mass, and mass can convert to energy.

Ken


So energy exists, infinitely?

I guess so; but that question is a little above my pay grade.

K

Let's see if Kenny connects the dots.

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:54 am
by Byblos
Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Hi Kenny, if I may ask:
What do you think happens to energy?


I am by no means an expert on the subject, but if I recall correctly, one of the laws of thermodynamics (can’t remember which one at the moment) states that energy can't be created nor destroyed. And energy can convert to mass, and mass can convert to energy.

Ken


Not it all systems, only in closed ones.

Do you know of any open systems where energy is created or destroyed?


In theory only. But what are you implying? That our closed system just created itself as such?

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:35 pm
by claysmithr
Kenny wrote:If Paradise is the end game for you, why not end it all right now? Not suicide, (I’m sure there is something the good book that makes it a sin) but martyrdom. Simply purchase a one way ticket to any one of those Middle East Asian Countries where Sharia law is practiced, go to any street corner, or public place and preach the Gospel to the Heathens, and be sure to explain everything that is wrong with Muhammad. Not only would your quick death get you to Heaven, but you will die a martyr doing what Jesus instructed you to do; spreading the gospel where it is most needed!

For me death is not an end game of life, death is an unfortunate unavoidable reality. You mention no meaning, no justice, no mercy, no hope, complete insignificance? If someone lives their life that way, that is their choice; but I bring meaning, love, hope, and much more to my life. Knowing that I will some day die, is what creates the commitment I bring to life. The desire to love, the focus needed to accomplish, the urgency to make a difference now before it’s too late, because I know If I always had the option of waiting till tomorrow, nothing will ever get done.


Because I'm a coward and I think I can do more good living for the Church then dying for the Church. While you may bring plenty of meaning to your life, in the span of eternity, your life will be meaningless, and even more so if you spend eternity dead.

The existence of God brings meaning and purpose to life, because what we do really matters for the rest of eternity!

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:34 pm
by Kenny
Kenny wrote:If Paradise is the end game for you, why not end it all right now? Not suicide, (I’m sure there is something the good book that makes it a sin) but martyrdom. Simply purchase a one way ticket to any one of those Middle East Asian Countries where Sharia law is practiced, go to any street corner, or public place and preach the Gospel to the Heathens, and be sure to explain everything that is wrong with Muhammad. Not only would your quick death get you to Heaven, but you will die a martyr doing what Jesus instructed you to do; spreading the gospel where it is most needed!

For me death is not an end game of life, death is an unfortunate unavoidable reality. You mention no meaning, no justice, no mercy, no hope, complete insignificance? If someone lives their life that way, that is their choice; but I bring meaning, love, hope, and much more to my life. Knowing that I will some day die, is what creates the commitment I bring to life. The desire to love, the focus needed to accomplish, the urgency to make a difference now before it’s too late, because I know If I always had the option of waiting till tomorrow, nothing will ever get done.


claysmithr wrote: Because I'm a coward and I think I can do more good living for the Church then dying for the Church.

So you live for the church? Is it safe to assume while living for the church, you find Meaning, joy & significance while doing so? If so, just as you find these things while alive living for the church, so do I! I just find them in things other than living for the church.
claysmithr wrote: While you may bring plenty of meaning to your life, in the span of eternity, your life will be meaningless, and even more so if you spend eternity dead.

You realize as an atheist, I am convinced the same applies to you as well right? Wanting something to be true, or even having faith that something is true, doesn't make it true.
claysmithr wrote: The existence of God brings meaning and purpose to life, because what we do really matters for the rest of eternity!

As a person who doesn’t accept the concept of eternity, I live my life for the here and now. As I said before, if tomorrow were always an option; nothing would ever get done!

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:35 pm
by Kenny
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Hi Kenny, if I may ask:
What do you think happens to energy?


I am by no means an expert on the subject, but if I recall correctly, one of the laws of thermodynamics (can’t remember which one at the moment) states that energy can't be created nor destroyed. And energy can convert to mass, and mass can convert to energy.

Ken


Not it all systems, only in closed ones.

Do you know of any open systems where energy is created or destroyed?


In theory only. But what are you implying? That our closed system just created itself as such?

I wasn’t suggesting anything, I was trying to get you to clarify on your suggestion that there are exceptions to the scientific law I mentioned.

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:40 pm
by RickD
Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
I am by no means an expert on the subject, but if I recall correctly, one of the laws of thermodynamics (can’t remember which one at the moment) states that energy can't be created nor destroyed. And energy can convert to mass, and mass can convert to energy.

Ken


Not it all systems, only in closed ones.

Do you know of any open systems where energy is created or destroyed?


In theory only. But what are you implying? That our closed system just created itself as such?

I wasn’t suggesting anything, I was trying to get you to clarify on your suggestion that there are exceptions to the scientific law I mentioned.

Byblos was not suggesting an exception to the first law of thermodynamics. No exceptions have ever been observed.

Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:16 pm
by patrick
claysmithr wrote:Yes, this is exactly it. If eternal death is the endgame for all life, then the unborn basically miss nothing compared to the born, besides a small blip of existence. No meaning, no justice, no mercy, no hope, complete insignificance.


I wouldn't go so far as to say it'd be completely insignificant, but I agree that the significance of eternal death is usually grossly understated by nonChristians.

Unbelief itself is a sin, and exposed as a sin in John Piper's book "Battling Unbelief"


This interests me. Could you summarize what you mean by it being exposed as a sin?