There is no Hope without Jesus

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
Kenny
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby Kenny » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:21 pm

Kenny wrote:No; the idea that Atheists believe God doesn’t exist is what theists believe about atheists. If you really wanna know what atheists believe, talk to an actual atheist. And you’re in luck today my friend! I’m an atheist; so just listen to me. Forget about all that stuff (propaganda) they have been telling you about us; just take my word for it. Okay???
The point I was trying to make was that there is a big difference between not believing what people say about “X” vs the claim that “X” doesn’t exist. Now can you see the difference in that? Or do I need to explain further.

Mallz wrote: Jan says the sun is God. Jim says Jan is a liar and the sun isn't God. Jim also says God doesn't exist. This is what I see you putting forward, yeah?

More like:
Jan says the Sun is God. Jim recognizes the Sun fits Jan’s description of what qualifies as God, but it does not qualify for what he would call God; thus Jim only sees the Sun as the biggest star in our solar system. Jim has an idea of what would qualify as God in his eyes and says such a being does not exist thus Jim does not believe in any God’s/God.

Mallz wrote: Yeah, I talk with atheists and used to be one. The whole point has been it doesn't matter what peoples opinions are, only what is real (not peoples claims). Believing in the non-existence of God is the same as believing God doesn't exist. Both takes belief, which takes your rational consent, which takes personal faith to come to a conclusion (or you don't and your agnostic :-p).

Do you see a difference between disbelieving a claim vs remaining skeptical of a claim? IOW is there a difference between “you are wrong” vs “I don’t believe you”? Or are they one and the same in your view and both require faith?

Mallz wrote: We are still talking past each other here; trying to figure out how to bring us both to the table. I see that you put theistic claims into the 'what people say about X' category and you see that atheism is instead dealing with 'X doesn't exist' category. Is this right to say? I hold saying anything further here for a response.

If we assume “X is the atheists idea of what would qualify as God; then yes.
Kenny wrote:Well I understand there is NO God, but there are plenty of people who will swear up and down that there is. Ya see; when a theists ask me about God they usually want to know my opinion on not just what THEY call God, but what others may call God as well. This is what I was addressing, because you weren't very clear with your questions and claims. But hence fourth; for the sake of this conversation I will assume you mean the God of the Bible. Okay?

Mallz wrote: Don't assume! knowing the existence vs non existence of God is not the same as the identity of God. In our discussion, I'm pretty sure I've been clear (?) we are addressing the existence of God.

In order to have a conversation about the existence of anything, an identity of what is being discussed must be agreed upon.

Mallz wrote: Propaganda? Where are you getting that from? There's a philosophy with everything, that shouldn't be news.. Are you going to say atheism has no philosophy!?

Kenny wrote:Yes. If you think there is, please explain.

Mallz wrote: It's impossible to separate philosophy from.. anything.. If you think there's no philosophy to atheism then you're claiming atheism isn't a branch of knowledge or an experience. So I'm not quit sure why you're suggesting that?

The reason I am suggesting that is because I believe it to be true. If you disagree, I invite you to explain what it is.

Kenny wrote:Some things require faith, others things don’t. From my experience; where there is adequate evidence no one speaks of faith. Nobody speaks of faith when it comes to math, or if the Sun will rise; they only speak of faith when there is a lack of evidence.

Mallz wrote: Everything requires faith. We're not using the same term and I don't know where you're getting your definition from. Faith is synonymous with trust/confidence. You have complete faith that 1+1=2. Evidence backs up faith, there's no negative correlation. We both have faith the sun will rise the next day, but that faith isn't as strong as 1+1=2 as a solar system catastrophe potentially could happen resulting in the 'sun not rising' in our perspective. But even if the sun were destroyed, 1+1=2.

When is the last time you heard someone say they have faith that 1+1=2, or any other math equation? The reality is; nobody speaks that way. However, if you want to define faith as synonymous with trust/confidence, that’s fine; however I don’t. I also believe when you define the word that way, it actually takes away from the meaning of the word.
Kenny wrote: Are you sure about that? Because for someone who doesn’t get to say who God is, just a few posts ago; you sure spent an awful lot of time saying who God is, what God is, and what he is not! Might wanna rethink that one my friend!

Mallz wrote: Have I? I'm pretty sure I've been trying to avoid the discussion of the identity of God because we need to figure out the existence of God, first. Which we do through our reasoning. If God exists, God will be revealed as God exists. What God is and not is part of reasoning the existence of God. Remember, I never got into 'Who' God is, or as I've been saying, His Identity (oops just did it) beyond grudgingly giving you a response out of courtesy to questions that really shouldn't be a part of this topic (until we get there).

Or does anyone else see me moving the goal posts in this thread?

Below are some of the claims you’ve made:

IF there is a God, it is a God of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE.
(Who God is)

In my view, Got is the 'something' that always had to exist which everything sprouted from
(What God is)

Is the Sun God Kenny? No.
(What God is not)

Kenny
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby Kenny » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:05 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:

But our opinion of the truth or what we believe to be truth, can change,yes?

Objective truth based on fact doesn't change, but Subjective truth, or what we believe to be true can and often does change.

Early you said that truth is objective but now it is objective AND/OR subjective?

Subjective is what is believed to be true; objective is what can be demonstrated as true.

So, what is truth Kenny?

First of all, I need to correct a mistake I made earlier. Before you asked:

“But our opinion of the truth or what we believe to be truth, can change,yes?”

And my reply was:

Objective truth based on fact doesn't change, but Subjective truth, or what we believe to be true can and often does change.

That was a mistake; I shouldn’t have said subjective truth, because I don’t believe the truth is subjective. I should have said that our opinions and what we believe to be true can and often does change
With that said; I believe the Truth is that which is in line with reality; which can usually be demonstrated as true.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby Kenny » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:06 pm

RickD wrote:By Kenny's own definition, there cannot be subjective truth. Where the "subjective" comes in, is where we interpret objective truth. It's our subjective opinion that such and such is truth. But that doesn't make truth itself subjective.

I agree!

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby Kenny » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:07 pm

Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:By Kenny's own definition, there cannot be subjective truth. Where the "subjective" comes in, is where we interpret objective truth. It's our subjective opinion that such and such is truth. But that doesn't make truth itself subjective.


So the ultimate question becomes: is truth knowable? That's what Kenny needs to answer.

I believe the truth is demonstrable. If you can demonstrate something as the truth, you obviously know it is true.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby Storyteller » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:21 am

Ken.. you said this "Jim has an idea of what would qualify as God in his eyes and says such a being does not exist thus Jim does not believe in any God's/God"

So because God isnt't how Jim thinks he should be he doesn't exist?

Ken... Do you believe it is possible that some entity created us? That there was some kind of intelligence behind all of this?
Look at everything we do, how we have grown. We explore, develop, learn, search for answers to impossible questions. Why do we do that Ken? Why do we wonder where we came from?

Am I right in saying that you don't believe God exists, notthat he doesn't?
As in, you would say I don't believe God exists but you wouldn't say God doesn't exist.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:12 am

That was a mistake; I shouldn’t have said subjective truth, because I don’t believe the truth is subjective. I should have said that our opinions and what we believe to be true can and often does change
With that said; I believe the Truth is that which is in line with reality; which can usually be demonstrated as true.

If truth can only "usually" be demonstrated as truth then it can't be objective can it?
If truth is only truth if it can be demonstrated then what is the truth about your conscience?

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby Byblos » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:56 am

Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:By Kenny's own definition, there cannot be subjective truth. Where the "subjective" comes in, is where we interpret objective truth. It's our subjective opinion that such and such is truth. But that doesn't make truth itself subjective.


So the ultimate question becomes: is truth knowable? That's what Kenny needs to answer.

I believe the truth is demonstrable. If you can demonstrate something as the truth, you obviously know it is true.


That's very good. So if truth is demonstrable then why do you keep going on and on about the objectivity of truth on the one hand, and the subjectivity of knowing the truth on the other? If objective truth is demonstrable, irrespective of differing opinions of it, it is still reachable.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby Kenny » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:18 pm

Storyteller wrote: Ken.. you said this "Jim has an idea of what would qualify as God in his eyes and says such a being does not exist thus Jim does not believe in any God's/God"

So because God isnt't how Jim thinks he should be he doesn't exist?

I noticed you asked the question in a way that presupposes the existence of God. If we assume God does exist, I think it would be more accurate to say;

Because God isn’t how Jim thinks he should be, Jim doesn’t recognize the existence of God.

I don’t find this an unreasonable position to hold. The person I was just discussing with defined God as that which has always existed and from which everything else came from, even if that something is not conscious, intelligent, or capable of thought. IOW if the singularity that expanded in what is known as the Big Bang, had always existed and was responsible for all that exist, he would consider that singularity to be God. Now most (that I know) people would not call something God that is inferior to themselves, so if we assume that singularity were God, most people wouldn’t recognize it as God, because it isn't what they think God should be.
Storyteller wrote:Ken... Do you believe it is possible that some entity created us? That there was some kind of intelligence behind all of this?

I don’t know if its possible, but I see no reason to assume it is.
Storyteller wrote:Look at everything we do, how we have grown. We explore, develop, learn, search for answers to impossible questions. Why do we do that Ken? Why do we wonder where we came from?

We wonder those things because of our intelligence.
Storyteller wrote:Am I right in saying that you don't believe God exists, notthat he doesn't?
As in, you would say I don't believe God exists but you wouldn't say God doesn't exist.

When you say God, I will assume you mean the God of the bible. With that said, the God of the bible is described in a way that makes it virtually impossible to prove his non existence. Thus you are right; I can’t say he doesn’t exist, but I do say I don’t believe he exist.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby Kenny » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:25 pm

That was a mistake; I shouldn’t have said subjective truth, because I don’t believe the truth is subjective. I should have said that our opinions and what we believe to be true can and often does change
With that said; I believe the Truth is that which is in line with reality; which can usually be demonstrated as true.

PaulSacramento wrote:If truth can only "usually" be demonstrated as truth then it can't be objective can it?

If something can be demonstrated as true, it IS objective.

PaulSacramento wrote:If truth is only truth if it can be demonstrated then what is the truth about your conscience?

Your conscience is only based on what you believe to be true.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby Kenny » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 pm

Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:By Kenny's own definition, there cannot be subjective truth. Where the "subjective" comes in, is where we interpret objective truth. It's our subjective opinion that such and such is truth. But that doesn't make truth itself subjective.


So the ultimate question becomes: is truth knowable? That's what Kenny needs to answer.

I believe the truth is demonstrable. If you can demonstrate something as the truth, you obviously know it is true.


Byblos wrote: That's very good. So if truth is demonstrable then why do you keep going on and on about the objectivity of truth on the one hand, and the subjectivity of knowing the truth on the other?

Exactly what did I say when I spoke of the subjectivity of knowing the truth? Perhaps you misunderstood me.

Byblos wrote: If objective truth is demonstrable, irrespective of differing opinions of it, it is still reachable.

Why would it not be?

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:14 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:If truth is only truth if it can be demonstrated then what is the truth about your conscience?

Your conscience is only based on what you believe to be true.


That is not what I asked Kenny, I asked what is the truth ABOUT your conscience.
Can you demonstrate that you have one? show me your conscience.
Show me you have thoughts.
Not the EFFECT of these things but these ACTUAL things.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby Kenny » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:45 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:If truth is only truth if it can be demonstrated then what is the truth about your conscience?

Your conscience is only based on what you believe to be true.


That is not what I asked Kenny, I asked what is the truth ABOUT your conscience.
Can you demonstrate that you have one? show me your conscience.
Show me you have thoughts.
Not the EFFECT of these things but these ACTUAL things.


Are you asking about the existence of my conscious? The conscious is a result of thoughts; and though are considered subjective (no actual existence by themselves) they are a result of the brain which is objective. Now if you are asking me to demonstrate my brains is capable of thoughts to include a conscious, what type of demonstration are you asking for?

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:04 pm

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:If truth is only truth if it can be demonstrated then what is the truth about your conscience?

Your conscience is only based on what you believe to be true.


That is not what I asked Kenny, I asked what is the truth ABOUT your conscience.
Can you demonstrate that you have one? show me your conscience.
Show me you have thoughts.
Not the EFFECT of these things but these ACTUAL things.


Are you asking about the existence of my conscious? The conscious is a result of thoughts; and though are considered subjective (no actual existence by themselves) they are a result of the brain which is objective. Now if you are asking me to demonstrate my brains is capable of thoughts to include a conscious, what type of demonstration are you asking for?

Your brain is objective? how do you know that?

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby RickD » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:25 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:If truth is only truth if it can be demonstrated then what is the truth about your conscience?

Your conscience is only based on what you believe to be true.


That is not what I asked Kenny, I asked what is the truth ABOUT your conscience.
Can you demonstrate that you have one? show me your conscience.
Show me you have thoughts.
Not the EFFECT of these things but these ACTUAL things.


Are you asking about the existence of my conscious? The conscious is a result of thoughts; and though are considered subjective (no actual existence by themselves) they are a result of the brain which is objective. Now if you are asking me to demonstrate my brains is capable of thoughts to include a conscious, what type of demonstration are you asking for?

Your brain is objective? how do you know that?

His brain told him that!
1 Corinthians 1:9
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Postby Kenny » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:05 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:If truth is only truth if it can be demonstrated then what is the truth about your conscience?

Your conscience is only based on what you believe to be true.


That is not what I asked Kenny, I asked what is the truth ABOUT your conscience.
Can you demonstrate that you have one? show me your conscience.
Show me you have thoughts.
Not the EFFECT of these things but these ACTUAL things.


Are you asking about the existence of my conscious? The conscious is a result of thoughts; and though are considered subjective (no actual existence by themselves) they are a result of the brain which is objective. Now if you are asking me to demonstrate my brains is capable of thoughts to include a conscious, what type of demonstration are you asking for?

Your brain is objective? how do you know that?

Before I answer your question; in order to make sure we're on the same page; how are you defining "objective"?


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