The meaning of immaterial life

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
Nils
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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby Nils » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:39 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Nils wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Remove talk of states. Without the physical, could consciousness be had? No, not if the mental supervenes upon the physical. Hence, the mental is produced by the physical ordering.


Kurieuo,
I don't understand what you are saying. We discuss a materialistic worldview and then there are only physical things, no separate spiritual entities. How can you then discuss what could be had without the physical? Not only consciousness can not be had but anything.


Where did I mention spiritual entities? Unless you wish to say you don't believe there is anything "mental"

Oh, these definition problems again. Of course, I think that there is something "mental", but being a materialist, I think that the "mental" or "mind" is part of the physical. That the "mental" supervene on the physical. Did you understand my example with waves? So when I say that there IS something "mental", I don't mean that there is some entity that is separate from the physical, I only think that there is an aspect of the physical that can be called "mind". Do you understand?

-- everyone, all sides, still discuss the mind-body i.e., "mind" and "body" problem.

About the philosophical conscious debate somebody wrote some years ago that there are two camps; one is headed by David Chalmers and the other by Daniel Dennet. Chalmers discuss the mind-body problem but I would not regard him as a materialist. Dennet thinks he has solved the problem. My impression is that the mind-body problem isn't of much interest among philosophical oriented brain researchers.

PS. I'm not saying anything, my body is doing the talking so it would seem to some, not me.


My opinion is that first person evidence is totally unreliable. There has been so much evidence of that.

Nils

PS Your short answers make it difficult to me to know if you understand my position or not, the position we discuss currently.

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby Nessa » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:09 pm

Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:No; I'm afraid not. However if my
I believe all human lives have value, but the actions of some people are so detrimental to society that they should pay with their lives. It doesn’t mean their lives don’t have value, its just that the cost to society of what they’ve done exceeds the value of their life. What is your opinion of of such people?

Ken


I would grieve more for my dead child than a stranger but not because I saw them as more valuable but because I loved my child more. My child has more personal meaning in my world.

I grew up believing murders and rapists go to hell. Good people go to heaven. But then I had to ask myself who is good? and by whose standards? I don't see myself having any more value than a rapist or murder. Given certain circumstances we are all capable of the most horrific crimes. To think otherwise is deluded. At least that's how I see it.

People have a need to play good cop, bad cop because we need to believe we are better. But we aren't better. We are just more capable of making better choices.

I have been watching documentaries about kids in prisons who have committed sexual crimes against other kids. When you hear some of the background of the kids who did the crimes, you can begin to understand the true reality of this world.

We need to pay for our crimes but when parents put their kids in the washing machine and dryer and do other sick things to their kids, you can't expect a child to not be affected negatively.



You say you love your child more, but value your child no more than a stranger, or that you don’t see yourself as having any more value than a murderer. What is the standard you are using when you consider value?


God's value is objective. That is the only true way to see anothers value.

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby Kenny » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:31 pm

Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:No; I'm afraid not. However if my
I believe all human lives have value, but the actions of some people are so detrimental to society that they should pay with their lives. It doesn’t mean their lives don’t have value, its just that the cost to society of what they’ve done exceeds the value of their life. What is your opinion of of such people?

Ken


I would grieve more for my dead child than a stranger but not because I saw them as more valuable but because I loved my child more. My child has more personal meaning in my world.

I grew up believing murders and rapists go to hell. Good people go to heaven. But then I had to ask myself who is good? and by whose standards? I don't see myself having any more value than a rapist or murder. Given certain circumstances we are all capable of the most horrific crimes. To think otherwise is deluded. At least that's how I see it.

People have a need to play good cop, bad cop because we need to believe we are better. But we aren't better. We are just more capable of making better choices.

I have been watching documentaries about kids in prisons who have committed sexual crimes against other kids. When you hear some of the background of the kids who did the crimes, you can begin to understand the true reality of this world.

We need to pay for our crimes but when parents put their kids in the washing machine and dryer and do other sick things to their kids, you can't expect a child to not be affected negatively.



You say you love your child more, but value your child no more than a stranger, or that you don’t see yourself as having any more value than a murderer. What is the standard you are using when you consider value?


God's value is objective. That is the only true way to see anothers value.


Previously I said concerning the actions of some criminals, that the cost of their crimes exceeds the value of their lives; that they they should pay with their lives. Do you agree with this?

Ken

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby Nessa » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:23 am

Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:No; I'm afraid not. However if my
I believe all human lives have value, but the actions of some people are so detrimental to society that they should pay with their lives. It doesn’t mean their lives don’t have value, its just that the cost to society of what they’ve done exceeds the value of their life. What is your opinion of of such people?

Ken


I would grieve more for my dead child than a stranger but not because I saw them as more valuable but because I loved my child more. My child has more personal meaning in my world.

I grew up believing murders and rapists go to hell. Good people go to heaven. But then I had to ask myself who is good? and by whose standards? I don't see myself having any more value than a rapist or murder. Given certain circumstances we are all capable of the most horrific crimes. To think otherwise is deluded. At least that's how I see it.

People have a need to play good cop, bad cop because we need to believe we are better. But we aren't better. We are just more capable of making better choices.

I have been watching documentaries about kids in prisons who have committed sexual crimes against other kids. When you hear some of the background of the kids who did the crimes, you can begin to understand the true reality of this world.

We need to pay for our crimes but when parents put their kids in the washing machine and dryer and do other sick things to their kids, you can't expect a child to not be affected negatively.



You say you love your child more, but value your child no more than a stranger, or that you don’t see yourself as having any more value than a murderer. What is the standard you are using when you consider value?


God's value is objective. That is the only true way to see anothers value.


Previously I said concerning the actions of some criminals, that the cost of their crimes exceeds the value of their lives; that they they should pay with their lives. Do you agree with this?

Ken


I am not pro capital punishment put I do believe in having to pay for your crimes. Killing the murderer is not going to bring back the loved one. And if its all about fairness then we are in the wrong world.

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby Kenny » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:56 am

Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
I would grieve more for my dead child than a stranger but not because I saw them as more valuable but because I loved my child more. My child has more personal meaning in my world.

I grew up believing murders and rapists go to hell. Good people go to heaven. But then I had to ask myself who is good? and by whose standards? I don't see myself having any more value than a rapist or murder. Given certain circumstances we are all capable of the most horrific crimes. To think otherwise is deluded. At least that's how I see it.

People have a need to play good cop, bad cop because we need to believe we are better. But we aren't better. We are just more capable of making better choices.

I have been watching documentaries about kids in prisons who have committed sexual crimes against other kids. When you hear some of the background of the kids who did the crimes, you can begin to understand the true reality of this world.

We need to pay for our crimes but when parents put their kids in the washing machine and dryer and do other sick things to their kids, you can't expect a child to not be affected negatively.



You say you love your child more, but value your child no more than a stranger, or that you don’t see yourself as having any more value than a murderer. What is the standard you are using when you consider value?


God's value is objective. That is the only true way to see anothers value.


Previously I said concerning the actions of some criminals, that the cost of their crimes exceeds the value of their lives; that they they should pay with their lives. Do you agree with this?

Ken


I am not pro capital punishment put I do believe in having to pay for your crimes. Killing the murderer is not going to bring back the loved one. And if its all about fairness then we are in the wrong world.


I’m not so much interested as to whether or not you are pro capital punishment, but rather if Gods laws are. Since Gods laws are objective they should obvious for all to see. And since Gods value on human life is objective, if scripture does support capital punishment, then the point when the cost of a crime a person commits exceeds the value of their life should be as easy to determine as 1+1=2. If so then what crimes are worthy of capital punishment.
However if Gods laws are NOT pro capital punishment, than what about all those other people who read the same scriptures you read yet DO believe in capital punishment? Do they just ignore Gods laws? Do they know the laws but choose to work against God? Are these just dishonest Christians?

Ken

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby Nicki » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:00 am

Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:

You say you love your child more, but value your child no more than a stranger, or that you don’t see yourself as having any more value than a murderer. What is the standard you are using when you consider value?


God's value is objective. That is the only true way to see anothers value.


Previously I said concerning the actions of some criminals, that the cost of their crimes exceeds the value of their lives; that they they should pay with their lives. Do you agree with this?

Ken


I am not pro capital punishment put I do believe in having to pay for your crimes. Killing the murderer is not going to bring back the loved one. And if its all about fairness then we are in the wrong world.


I’m not so much interested as to whether or not you are pro capital punishment, but rather if Gods laws are. Since Gods laws are objective they should obvious for all to see. And since Gods value on human life is objective, if scripture does support capital punishment, then the point when the cost of a crime a person commits exceeds the value of their life should be as easy to determine as 1+1=2. If so then what crimes are worthy of capital punishment.
However if Gods laws are NOT pro capital punishment, than what about all those other people who read the same scriptures you read yet DO believe in capital punishment? Do they just ignore Gods laws? Do they know the laws but choose to work against God? Are these just dishonest Christians?

Ken


I think it could be said that a person's value to God is infinite - so the cost of their crime could never exceed the value of their life. Capital punishment is commanded in the Old Testament in certain circumstances, but I don't think it's ever mentioned in the New Testament. Some Christians are therefore in favour of it and some aren't. I think it needs to be kept in mind that people are wrongly convicted sometimes - just this week a man was released from prison in my state after spending five years inside, wrongly convicted of murder.

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby Kenny » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:57 am

Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
God's value is objective. That is the only true way to see anothers value.


Previously I said concerning the actions of some criminals, that the cost of their crimes exceeds the value of their lives; that they they should pay with their lives. Do you agree with this?

Ken


I am not pro capital punishment put I do believe in having to pay for your crimes. Killing the murderer is not going to bring back the loved one. And if its all about fairness then we are in the wrong world.


I’m not so much interested as to whether or not you are pro capital punishment, but rather if Gods laws are. Since Gods laws are objective they should obvious for all to see. And since Gods value on human life is objective, if scripture does support capital punishment, then the point when the cost of a crime a person commits exceeds the value of their life should be as easy to determine as 1+1=2. If so then what crimes are worthy of capital punishment.
However if Gods laws are NOT pro capital punishment, than what about all those other people who read the same scriptures you read yet DO believe in capital punishment? Do they just ignore Gods laws? Do they know the laws but choose to work against God? Are these just dishonest Christians?

Ken


Nicki wrote:I think it could be said that a person's value to God is infinite - so the cost of their crime could never exceed the value of their life.

So the value of a serial killers life, is never exceeded by the combined value of lives of all of his victims?
Nicki wrote:Capital punishment is commanded in the Old Testament in certain circumstances, but I don't think it's ever mentioned in the New Testament. Some Christians are therefore in favour of it and some aren't.

Are you suggesting this is a moral issue that isn’t addressed in the Bible? If morality is objective rather than subjective, how can it be objectively based on Gods word, if Gods word doesn’t address every moral issue?

Ken

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby RickD » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:30 am

kenny wrote:
Are you suggesting this is a moral issue that isn’t addressed in the Bible? If morality is objective rather than subjective, how can it be objectively based on Gods word, if Gods word doesn’t address every moral issue?

Objective morality doesn't come from the Bible, Kenny. In other words, the Bible isn't the foundation of objective morality.

If you've learned anything at all from being here, I hope you've understood that.
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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby Kenny » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:49 am

RickD wrote:
kenny wrote:
Are you suggesting this is a moral issue that isn’t addressed in the Bible? If morality is objective rather than subjective, how can it be objectively based on Gods word, if Gods word doesn’t address every moral issue?

Objective morality doesn't come from the Bible, Kenny. In other words, the Bible isn't the foundation of objective morality.

If you've learned anything at all from being here, I hope you've understood that.

So if Objective morality is not based on God's word, what is it based on?

K

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby RickD » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:08 am

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
kenny wrote:
Are you suggesting this is a moral issue that isn’t addressed in the Bible? If morality is objective rather than subjective, how can it be objectively based on Gods word, if Gods word doesn’t address every moral issue?

Objective morality doesn't come from the Bible, Kenny. In other words, the Bible isn't the foundation of objective morality.

If you've learned anything at all from being here, I hope you've understood that.

So if Objective morality is not based on God's word, what is it based on?

K

Kenny,

This is basic stuff. I don't mean to come off as insulting, but this is why people have such a difficult time talking with you. You don't even understand the basics of what you're arguing against.

Objective morality has its basis in the immutable nature of God. Moral values are because of who God is.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby Kenny » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:17 am

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
kenny wrote:
Are you suggesting this is a moral issue that isn’t addressed in the Bible? If morality is objective rather than subjective, how can it be objectively based on Gods word, if Gods word doesn’t address every moral issue?

Objective morality doesn't come from the Bible, Kenny. In other words, the Bible isn't the foundation of objective morality.

If you've learned anything at all from being here, I hope you've understood that.

So if Objective morality is not based on God's word, what is it based on?

K

Objective morality has its basis in the immutable nature of God. Moral values are because of who God is.
So are you saying we can’t know the difference between right and wrong unless we understand the “immutable nature of God”? If so, does the immutable nature of God say capital punishment is right or wrong?

Ken
PS is the immutable nature of God learned by reading the Bible, or is it revealed via personal revelation from God?

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby Nicki » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:41 pm

Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
God's value is objective. That is the only true way to see anothers value.


Previously I said concerning the actions of some criminals, that the cost of their crimes exceeds the value of their lives; that they they should pay with their lives. Do you agree with this?

Ken


I am not pro capital punishment put I do believe in having to pay for your crimes. Killing the murderer is not going to bring back the loved one. And if its all about fairness then we are in the wrong world.


I’m not so much interested as to whether or not you are pro capital punishment, but rather if Gods laws are. Since Gods laws are objective they should obvious for all to see. And since Gods value on human life is objective, if scripture does support capital punishment, then the point when the cost of a crime a person commits exceeds the value of their life should be as easy to determine as 1+1=2. If so then what crimes are worthy of capital punishment.
However if Gods laws are NOT pro capital punishment, than what about all those other people who read the same scriptures you read yet DO believe in capital punishment? Do they just ignore Gods laws? Do they know the laws but choose to work against God? Are these just dishonest Christians?

Ken


Nicki wrote:I think it could be said that a person's value to God is infinite - so the cost of their crime could never exceed the value of their life.

So the value of a serial killers life, is never exceeded by the combined value of lives of all of his victims?


I don't think it's as mathematically calculable as that. The death of a serial killer is not going to pay for his/her victims' lives and bring them back from the dead. As for your other question, I think Rick's answering that but I understand you want to know how we can know whether it's right or wrong. Not every issue is addressed in black and white in the Bible, but based on the Old Testament I think it can be said that capital punishment is not necessarily wrong.

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby RickD » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:01 am

kenny wrote:
So are you saying we can’t know the difference between right and wrong unless we understand the “immutable nature of God”?

No Kenny. If I were saying that, I'd be conflating ontology and epistemology. The fact that you would even ask me that, shows that you really have no desire to understand what you are discussing. The difference between ontology and epistemology has been explained to you multiple times, by someone here, or by a link showing you.

I'm afraid this post just shows how disrespectful you are to all the people here who have taken the time, and had the patience to explain to you how to understand the topic.

I can't continue wasting my time with someone who has continually shown no desire to understand something he's arguing against.
1 Corinthians 1:9
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Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:06 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Materialistic people MUST see everything as subjective.

Why?

Ken


Because your materialistic view demands it.
Or do you see certain things as objective?

Yes. I see certain things as objective.

K

Such as?

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Re: The meaning of immaterial life

Postby Kenny » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:49 am

Nicki wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nessa wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Previously I said concerning the actions of some criminals, that the cost of their crimes exceeds the value of their lives; that they they should pay with their lives. Do you agree with this?

Ken


I am not pro capital punishment put I do believe in having to pay for your crimes. Killing the murderer is not going to bring back the loved one. And if its all about fairness then we are in the wrong world.


I’m not so much interested as to whether or not you are pro capital punishment, but rather if Gods laws are. Since Gods laws are objective they should obvious for all to see. And since Gods value on human life is objective, if scripture does support capital punishment, then the point when the cost of a crime a person commits exceeds the value of their life should be as easy to determine as 1+1=2. If so then what crimes are worthy of capital punishment.
However if Gods laws are NOT pro capital punishment, than what about all those other people who read the same scriptures you read yet DO believe in capital punishment? Do they just ignore Gods laws? Do they know the laws but choose to work against God? Are these just dishonest Christians?

Ken


Nicki wrote:I think it could be said that a person's value to God is infinite - so the cost of their crime could never exceed the value of their life.

So the value of a serial killers life, is never exceeded by the combined value of lives of all of his victims?


I don't think it's as mathematically calculable as that.

So what do you mean when you say value? If it isn't how much you love the person or care about them, what does value mean?

Nicki wrote: Not every issue is addressed in black and white in the Bible, but based on the Old Testament I think it can be said that capital punishment is not necessarily wrong.

So though you don't agree with capital punishment, you don't think the Bible condemn it. Fair enough; I can understand that position.


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