Kenny wrote: PaulSacramento wrote: Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:I think that you mean that without an intelligent being there would be no application of mathematics.
Naw; I meant what I said. If I understand you correctly, you mean math exists by itself, but needs an intelligent being to apply it. Using the analogy of the combustion engine I mentioned earlier, that would be like saying before the engine was built, while it was just an idea, that it existed somewhere but just needed someone to operate the engine.
I say before the engine was built, it was just a part of someone’s thoughts, it never existed. And that math doesn’t exist, it is just a system that is a part of someone’s thoughts.
You can't have it both ways Ken, you can't say math doesn't exist apart form someone's thoughts and say that 2 apples + 2 apples = 4 Apples even if there is no one around to count them.
Why? The way I see it, if there are no thoughts concerning math, math doesn't exist!
Kurieuo wrote: I think you can see that 2+2=4 is math.
Not quite; it’s an example of a mathematical equation. Math is just a system.
Kurieuo wrote: So then, math does have a hold in reality even when people aren't around.
No; people use math and various other systems, and it is people who have this hold in reality.
Kurieuo wrote: The world infact, seems to work by and run on math. One big mathematical equation. Some even say reality is ultimately all math.
People use math to run the world.
Kurieuo wrote: The "riddle" that must be resolved, which you and JustAtheist haven't answered or are avoiding, is how can math have any hold in the world without humans -- if for math to exist requires someone to have thunk it.
I thought I answered that “riddle” with the engine analogy. Apparently that answer wasn’t to your satisfaction, so let me try something else. Here is how I see it:
The system of math does not have any type of hold on the world; humans or not. Humans have hold of the world, and they USE math to get things done. If there were no humans or any other type of intelligent beings, there would be no one around to use math this way.
Is this answer to your satisfaction? If so, perhaps you can answer a question that you’ve neglected to answer: If math has an existence outside of human thought, where does it exist?