What is behind suffering?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Re: What is behind suffering?

Postby B. W. » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:07 am

Audie wrote:BW, I in no remote way intended to suggest you had expressed any racism.
I am truly sorry if you got that impression.

My date is waiting for me to finish bye.

T


No problem audie, need to clear the air!
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Re: What is behind suffering?

Postby B. W. » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:08 am

RickD wrote:Back to the topic...

Q: What is "behind" suffering?

A: A really big hemorrhoid.


:pound:

You win Rick!

:lol:
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Re: What is behind suffering?

Postby B. W. » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:28 am

+

You can respond later but I also hope my answer on thread page 3 helped to clear the air about me and why and how I became a militant atheist as well as why I changed...

Now

Audie wrote:...What does your question mean?

Bottom line-"No hope, no reason, ..."

I stood on a balcony high above the street in Hong Kong, and thought long about stepping off. Only so much misrey can one take, but I chose to take a little more, a great deal more.

So no, I guess you are simply wrong on that no reason or hope thing. It is a bit of a mantra that the religious use. Why? I can think of a possible reason or two. Uncouple it from there actually being a god, if you can, and then try answering.

Plz excuse the poor typing and organization. Im a a Starbux just off Wall St or maybe this is wall st.
Writing with rablet amid a lot of commotion, waiting for my date.

Hope this makes sense, looking farward to your pov on the above.

T...


Where did the conscience come from that stopped you?

Job 33:14, "Indeed God speaks once, Or twice, yet no one notices it." NASB

How do you not know that it was God who stopped you?

I am so thankful he did.

Long ago, Audie, I was driving drunk in a station wagon full of friends. Topped a Hill at high speed, went airborne, heading straight for an old 200 year oak tree on a Va Road aptly named Gallows Road. There is no way I could have missed it. Something literally moved the car in mid flight back onto the road with a jar as it landed and kept me on the road the rest of the way down hill. Nearly wet my pants.

God speaks to us in many ways. At that time, as an atheist, I attributed it to random chance, a million to one shot. Drove back there next day sober, and noticed the angle of the tire marks on the road where the car landed - amazed at the evidence and yet still denied the grace of God in the event. God tired to engage my moral compass but I denied to hear him speak through this event as well as others.

Simply saying, we oft do not recognize when and how God speaks to us and instead choose to explain what he given us, such as a conscience, away spinning it into something else.

Why?
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Re: What is behind suffering?

Postby Audie » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:51 am

B. W. wrote:
Audie wrote:BW, I in no remote way intended to suggest you had expressed any racism.
I am truly sorry if you got that impression.

My date is waiting for me to finish bye.

T


No problem audie, need to clear the air!


I guess you hit a nerve in about the same way that calling me a chink would.

It may be that we have a different understanding of what it means to "hit a nerve".

To me it means, to have uncovered an uncomfortable truth that gets
a strong reaction, revealing in the process that it is a truth, however one may try to deny it.

I was in no way suggesting I thought you were doing anything racial in any comments. I've a good antenna for that, and no, I didnt see any.

Stereotyping and prejudice come of course in many forms and degrees.

My take is that you were indulging in some negative / prejudicial stereotyping of atheists, consciously or otherwise. It can come of not actually knowing things a person believes he knows.

I was horribly prejudiced against British and Japanese at one point in my life.
I thought I knew what they were about. Prejudiced in favour of Chinese and Americans in ways that seem very naive now.

It is further my take that while you apparently dwelt for some time among
of atheists, or it was purely a private journey, you never really got there.

Fo lo, I says to myself, if he had, he'd not ask such questions!

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Re: What is behind suffering?

Postby Audie » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:59 am

B. W. wrote:+

You can respond later but I also hope my answer on thread page 3 helped to clear the air about me and why and how I became a militant atheist as well as why I changed...

Now

Audie wrote:...What does your question mean?

Bottom line-"No hope, no reason, ..."

I stood on a balcony high above the street in Hong Kong, and thought long about stepping off. Only so much misrey can one take, but I chose to take a little more, a great deal more.

So no, I guess you are simply wrong on that no reason or hope thing. It is a bit of a mantra that the religious use. Why? I can think of a possible reason or two. Uncouple it from there actually being a god, if you can, and then try answering.

Plz excuse the poor typing and organization. Im a a Starbux just off Wall St or maybe this is wall st.
Writing with rablet amid a lot of commotion, waiting for my date.

Hope this makes sense, looking farward to your pov on the above.

T...


Where did the conscience come from that stopped you?

Job 33:14, "Indeed God speaks once, Or twice, yet no one notices it." NASB

How do you not know that it was God who stopped you?

I am so thankful he did.

Long ago, Audie, I was driving drunk in a station wagon full of friends. Topped a Hill at high speed, went airborne, heading straight for an old 200 year oak tree on a Va Road aptly named Gallows Road. There is no way I could have missed it. Something literally moved the car in mid flight back onto the road with a jar as it landed and kept me on the road the rest of the way down hill. Nearly wet my pants.

God speaks to us in many ways. At that time, as an atheist, I attributed it to random chance, a million to one shot. Drove back there next day sober, and noticed the angle of the tire marks on the road where the car landed - amazed at the evidence and yet still denied the grace of God in the event. God tired to engage my moral compass but I denied to hear him speak through this event as well as others.

Simply saying, we oft do not recognize when and how God speaks to us and instead choose to explain what he given us, such as a conscience, away spinning it into something else.

Why?
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Where did the conscience come from that stopped you?

How do you not know that it was God who stopped you?

I am so thankful he did.


Dunno if is was conscience as such. I had two thoughts that were holding me
back. One was, I had read how people who survive a suicide attempt
(jumping off Golden Gate Bridge in California is a famous one) will say, "Oh, just as I let go I regretted it!".

17 stories to the sidewalk, there is no surviving, but plenty of time for regret.

The big one was, I felt I could not do it to my mom, for all she did for me, then I pay her back so.

What ended the "discussion' was I could turn myself around, walk back in thro the sliding door a lot easier than jumping off. So I sort of shut my mind off and walked back in.

I am glad you survived that near-fatal accident.

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Re: What is behind suffering?

Postby Jac3510 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:13 am

Audie wrote:Dunno if is was conscience as such. I had two thoughts that were holding me
back. One was, I had read how people who survive a suicide attempt
(jumping off Golden Gate Bridge in California is a famous one) will say, "Oh, just as I let go I regretted it!".

17 stories to the sidewalk, there is no surviving, but plenty of time for regret.

You'd be surprised--or, I guess not--how often I hear that at the hospital. We pretty regularly get suicide attempts in our ICU. Every one in awhile, I'll get somebody who makes it extremely clear that they are angry they survived and are going to try again. But more often than not, I get something like what you've said here. Doubly so when it is people who intentionally OD'd on pills. Pretty common for them to call 911 themselves as soon as it hits them what they've done and they're looking to "get out" of it.

There's something pretty deep in all of that, the psychology of suicide. The distinction between the longing for death, per se, and the (initial) decision to end your life.

Regardless, glad you're still with us. And BW, glad to hear how God spared you. :)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: What is behind suffering?

Postby B. W. » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:12 am

Audie wrote:
B. W. wrote:Where did the conscience come from that stopped you?

How do you not know that it was God who stopped you?

I am so thankful he did.


Dunno if is was conscience as such. I had two thoughts that were holding me back. One was, I had read how people who survive a suicide attempt (jumping off Golden Gate Bridge in California is a famous one) will say, "Oh, just as I let go I regretted it!".

17 stories to the sidewalk, there is no surviving, but plenty of time for regret.

The big one was, I felt I could not do it to my mom, for all she did for me, then I pay her back so.

What ended the "discussion' was I could turn myself around, walk back in thro the sliding door a lot easier than jumping off. So I sort of shut my mind off and walked back in.

I am glad you survived that near-fatal accident.


God created us as creatures with a conscience to be able to reason things through. You may not agree with me on this next statement but he did engaged your reason and thankfully you did not jump.

With this I would like you to kindly consider this:

This is what Jesus came to do - reveal who and what God is really like. Just as Jesus in Luke chapter four quoted this from Isaiah 61:1-4 in the NT:

"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; 2 To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn,3 To grant those who mourn in Zion, Giving them a garland instead of ashes, The oil of gladness instead of mourning, The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. So they will be called oaks of righteousness, The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified. 4 Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, They will raise up the former devastations; And they will repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations." NASB

Audie,

Life events fracture our hearts and cause such confusion. He came to set folks free from these chains and for this, we have militant atheist, like myself once was, poking their proverbial finger in the eye of God demanding he stop doing this: healing the shattered hearts, setting at liberty those held captive to life events, and prevent those in their mental prisons to be free. Demanding that he stop giving the oil of joy in exchange for mourning. Strength instead of fainting. So that we can shine and help others rebuild a new and better way away from the devastation of ruin humanity places on its self.

I was so smug to accuse God as unable to do these things arguing that we can do these better while at the same time touting my own amorality while never seeing the hypocrisy of such relativism I had as the rule for governing life.

I never saw how, Jesus came into this world, as one of us, so none could say to God, you do not know what it is like to be born into a world of mixed up crazy families, midst hostility, hate, brown nosing, pride, surrounded by the moral, social, and sexual perverts. Surrounded those who bear false witness, betray, steal, abandon, reject, neglect, abuse... that helps erase all goodness humanity is capable of in short order.

I used to reason that God was the progenitor of all evil, yet, believed God did not exist while at the same time never once really considered that we are the actual progenitors of evil, not God. Never thought or saw how he came here to earth to begin the process to help stop our betrayals stealing, abandoning, rejecting, neglecting, abusing claiming we can do this better.

Never saw how many times he actually intervened in my life to save my life many times and passed these off to random chance. I kept denying that he came as one of us and dealt a death blow to all our innate propensity toward betrayals stealing, abandoning, rejecting, neglecting, and our abusing. denying he came to help us change from the inside out what we cannot change no matter how hard we try to work at it, cope with it, or deal with it.

Do I hate or am I prejudice against militant atheist or mild atheist? The answer is a resounding - NO -

I instead have a profound godly sorrow toward people and desire that God wake them up to all He came to do for them despite their challenges to provoke him. So that they see what Jesus said about the show trial he was put on, how he was mocked, betrayed, abused, stolen from, falsely accused, demand to perform as a play toy, rejected, abandoned, beaten, whipped - that was God come in human flesh you know, who went thru that and what did He say about this action of all humanity? - Father forgive/release/deliver them, for the know not what they do.

We do not deserve such a proclamation like that, yet, God still moves human conscience to stop one's act from suicide allowing us to reason freely say it was rather for this or that reason but why did the thought come to mind is ignored as coming from God. We can also say random chance stopped the accident that almost took my life, but really? Or we can walk around with a proverbial chip on our shoulders denying humanity's role in progenerating all the bad in life thwarting whatever good people can do.

Yet he came, Audie, and let himself be put on trial, rejected, abandoned, abused, betrayed so you and I won't
have to be enslaved to the fruit of this in our lives anymore, held captive to it, prisoner to it any longer.

That's God, Audie, the one sent to rescue, restore, and rebuild you and I midst an openly hostile world enslaved to slay good that drives one to seek suicide, drugs alcohol, one failed relationship after another...

Audie, please keep reading now that you an idea whom I am

Let me share with you what Christian faith/belief is all about: acceptance - accepting that he said:

Father forgive/release/deliver them, for the know not what they do.

Accepting that one who went to such agony is truly worthy to govern our lives midst a dark world so we stop contributing to its stench.

What is disbelief?

It is simply not accepting that HE is worthy, worthy to govern or lives inside out, but rather that we can govern better than he can our own lives. Meanwhile, another person ends his or her life lost midst a sea of depravity that society justifies as a right.

Isaiah 61:1-4 from the NLT reads: “The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me, for the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to comfort the brokenhearted and to proclaim that captives will be released and prisoners will be freed. 2 He has sent me to tell those who mourn that the time of the Lord’s favor has come, and with it, the day of God’s anger against their enemies. 3 To all who mourn in Israel, he will give a crown of beauty for ashes, a joyous blessing instead of mourning, festive praise instead of despair. In their righteousness, they will be like great oaks that the Lord has planted for his own glory. 4 They will rebuild the ancient ruins, repairing cities destroyed long ago. They will revive them, though they have been deserted for many generations.” NLT

And for this, I am told to shut up, have no rights to help make the world a better place where God worthy, can govern the world of humanity from the inside out….

I found life abundant no matter what comes my way that can never be taken away. God in due time will make all things right (Rev 21:1,4).

My prayer and main desire for all shades of atheist, agnostics, unbelievers, is that find that life too.

My heartfelt desire is to see you in heaven, Audie, where there are no more tears or people demanding one to shut up telling them they must deny their right to exist.
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Re: What is behind suffering?

Postby Audie » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:01 am

Audie. wrote:



Audie,

Life events fracture our hearts and cause such confusion. He came to set folks free from these chains and for this, we have militant atheist, like myself once was, poking their proverbial finger in the eye of God demanding


See, BW, in all due respect which I intend no disrespect, this is why i said you
never were an atheist, and do not actually know what it is to, yes, simply not believe that there is any god.

You see what i mean?




I was so smug to accuse God as unable to do these things arguing that we can do these better while at the same time touting my own amorality


And yet again.

I for one, btw, am not an "amoral" person, None, I think, but socio / psyho paths are.

If you went sojourning into amoral behaviour and thought, it was in rebellion agaisnt a god you still believed i, n'est ce pas?


I used to reason that God was the progenitor of all evil, yet, believed God did not exist while at the same time never once really considered that we are the actual progenitors of evil, not God. Never thought or saw how he came here to earth to begin the process to help stop our betrayals stealing, abandoning, rejecting, neglecting, abusing claiming we can do this better.


See, I dont do that, would not occur to me to. An atheist would never think that way.
Do I hate or am I prejudiced against militant atheist or mild atheist? The answer is a resounding - NO -


You sure?

I instead have a profound godly sorrow toward people and desire that God wake them up to all He came to do for them despite their challenges to provoke him


See, there you say an atheist would "challenge god" to, "provoke him".

Rather nonsensically prejudging the thoughts and motives a people you do not know and clearly do not understand, and doing so in accordance to a stereotype that you have developed.

You might, and I hope you will, take my words here and reflect on them.
There is some insight you are missing.









Yet he came, Audie, and let himself be put on trial, rejected, abandoned, abused, betrayed so you and I won't
have to be enslaved to the fruit of this in our lives anymore, held captive to it, prisoner to it any longer.


I know the story.


That's God, Audie, the one sent to rescue, restore, and rebuild you and I midst an openly hostile world enslaved to slay good that drives one to seek suicide, drugs alcohol, one failed relationship after another...


I hope that is all true, tho I do not believe it.


Audie, please keep reading now that you an idea whom I am


It is simply not accepting that HE is worthy, worthy to govern or lives inside out, but rather that we can govern better than he can our own lives. Meanwhile, another person ends his or her life lost midst a sea of depravity that society justifies as a right.


In bold, no, that is not it.

. They will revive them, though they have been deserted for many generations.[/i]” NLT


I'd do no such thing as to "revile". I have my own thoughts about him, but that is not quite relevant here.

And for this, I am told to shut up, have no rights to help make the world a better place where God worthy, can govern the world of humanity from the inside out….


Sorry 'bout that. Its not me saying that.


I

My heartfelt desire is to see you in heaven, Audie, where there are no more tears or people demanding one to shut up telling them they must deny their right to exist.



I do very much appreciate your thoughts BW. May I never say anything to distress you.


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Re: What is behind suffering?

Postby B. W. » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:22 am

Audie wrote:
Audie,

Life events fracture our hearts and cause such confusion. He came to set folks free from these chains and for this, we have militant atheist, like myself once was, poking their proverbial finger in the eye of God demanding


See, BW, in all due respect which I intend no disrespect, this is why i said you never were an atheist, and do not actually know what it is to, yes, simply not believe that there is any god.

You see what i mean?


Yes I see what you mean.


Audie. wrote:
I was so smug to accuse God as unable to do these things arguing that we can do these better while at the same time touting my own amorality


And yet again.

I for one, btw, am not an "amoral" person, None, I think, but socio / psyho paths are.

If you went sojourning into amoral behaviour and thought, it was in rebellion agaisnt a god you still believed i, n'est ce pas?


In college there was a discussion on the topic Moral Relativism. In which batted around the idea that moral relativism is amoral as it creates an ever changing morality because it cannot define objectively what is good or evil, bad or good is.

The over all consensus was that Moral Relativism produces and justifies amorality.

Would you agree with this or why or why not?


Audie. wrote:
I used to reason that God was the progenitor of all evil, yet, believed God did not exist while at the same time never once really considered that we are the actual progenitors of evil, not God. Never thought or saw how he came here to earth to begin the process to help stop our betrayals stealing, abandoning, rejecting, neglecting, abusing claiming we can do this better.


See, I dont do that, would not occur to me to. An atheist would never think that way.


Yes they do, one of the most common arguments against God militant atheist use as evidenced many times on this very forum.

Yet, also, the quiet atheist would not care nor post nor be anti-faith either... however if questioned or they ask questions the same objections and reasons do surface.


Audie. wrote:
Do I hate or am I prejudiced against militant atheist or mild atheist? The answer is a resounding - NO -


You sure?


Yes, profound pity and compassion is not hate and neither is defending myself against their legal attacks against my practice of faith is either.

Audie. wrote:
I instead have a profound godly sorrow toward people and desire that God wake them up to all He came to do for them despite their challenges to provoke him


See, there you say an atheist would "challenge god" to, "provoke him".

Rather nonsensically prejudging the thoughts and motives a people you do not know and clearly do not understand, and doing so in accordance to a stereotype that you have developed.

You might, and I hope you will, take my words here and reflect on them.There is some insight you are missing.


Yes, they the militant atheist do, they may or may not be aware that they are doing so, but the evidence in actions, and deeds betray that they do... comes down to God doing something to prove he exist in there arguments posed that he does not exist is clearly seen.

Audie. wrote:
Yet he came, Audie, and let himself be put on trial, rejected, abandoned, abused, betrayed so you and I won't
have to be enslaved to the fruit of this in our lives anymore, held captive to it, prisoner to it any longer.


I know the story.


What will you do with it? Suggest kindly to ponder it for a bit... that is all...

Audie. wrote:
That's God, Audie, the one sent to rescue, restore, and rebuild you and I midst an openly hostile world enslaved to slay good that drives one to seek suicide, drugs alcohol, one failed relationship after another...


I hope that is all true, tho I do not believe it.


Again, what will you do with this info? Suggest kindly to ponder it for a bit... that is all...

Audie. wrote:
Audie, please keep reading now that you have an idea whom I am

It is simply not accepting that HE is worthy, worthy to govern or lives inside out, but rather that we can govern better than he can our own lives. Meanwhile, another person ends his or her life lost midst a sea of depravity that society justifies as a right.


In bold, no, that is not it.


People do think this. Take the Democrat Party Platform as but one example of what I mean.

Next on the other hand, people do indeed think they can govern his or her world according to his or her inner whims and fancy and philosophies - meanings that they maintain control... and all sorts of stuff happens and most is not so good...

You have one dominate personality type take advantage of another in a weak mental state is another example...

The world is a mess because folks walked away from God ignoring all the many ways he knocks on our hearts door.

To say the world is perfect and pure as the driven snow is not reality. People screw things up...

Jesus came to fix this and he did...

Audie. wrote:
. They will revive them, though they have been deserted for many generations.[/i]” NLT


I'd do no such thing as to "revile". I have my own thoughts about him, but that is not quite relevant here.


The word in the NLT is revive and not revile...

Not sure what you mean here...

Audie. wrote:
And for this, I am told to shut up, have no rights to help make the world a better place where God worthy, can govern the world of humanity from the inside out….


Sorry 'bout that. Its not me saying that.


Yet others do and seek legal cover to do so...also not imply that you do this at all.

Audie. wrote:
My heartfelt desire is to see you in heaven, Audie, where there are no more tears or people demanding one to shut up telling them they must deny their right to exist.


I do very much appreciate your thoughts BW. May I never say anything to distress you.-


See we can get along! Best wishes to you!
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