Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5799
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby Philip » Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:54 am

Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5696
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby Byblos » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:58 am

Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.


What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 7989
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:30 am

Byblos wrote:
Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.


What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?


Not an issue at all.
Think about the CORRECT premise of the argument:
Everything that COMES INTO being or everything that MOVES/Changes.
Energy may have always been BUT for it to become something other than what it is, it MUST be "moved" by something else.

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5696
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby Byblos » Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:33 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.


What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?


Not an issue at all.
Think about the CORRECT premise of the argument:
Everything that COMES INTO being or everything that MOVES/Changes.
Energy may have always been BUT for it to become something other than what it is, it MUST be "moved" by something else.


I am well aware of the argument Paul. I'm not so sure Philip sees it that way.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 7989
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:44 am

Byblos wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.


What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?


Not an issue at all.
Think about the CORRECT premise of the argument:
Everything that COMES INTO being or everything that MOVES/Changes.
Energy may have always been BUT for it to become something other than what it is, it MUST be "moved" by something else.


I am well aware of the argument Paul. I'm not so sure Philip sees it that way.

Sorry, thought you were playing devil's advocate.

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5696
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby Byblos » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:21 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Byblos wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.


What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?


Not an issue at all.
Think about the CORRECT premise of the argument:
Everything that COMES INTO being or everything that MOVES/Changes.
Energy may have always been BUT for it to become something other than what it is, it MUST be "moved" by something else.


I am well aware of the argument Paul. I'm not so sure Philip sees it that way.

Sorry, thought you were playing devil's advocate.


In a way I guess I was. My intention is to bring to Philip's attention that the argument from motion or change (i.e. actuality/potentiality) is much more powerful than creation ex nihilo precisely because it says nothing on the eternality of matter/energy.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3474
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby Audie » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:47 am

Byblos wrote:
Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.


What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?


And what if nobody actually has a clue as to what time really is?

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 7989
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:54 am

What if the x-men?

And for those younger ( to which that Marvel reference will be meaningless):
What if my grandfather was my grandmother?
What if c-a-t spelled dog?

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3474
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby Audie » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:02 am

PaulSacramento wrote:What if the x-men?

And for those younger ( to which that Marvel reference will be meaningless):
What if my grandfather was my grandmother?
What if c-a-t spelled dog?


Thrice I've brought this up, and thrice it is evaded.

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5696
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby Byblos » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:23 am

Audie wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.


What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?


And what if nobody actually has a clue as to what time really is?


The argument from motion says nothing about time nor is it concerned with it.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 7989
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:55 am

Byblos wrote:
Audie wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.


What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?


And what if nobody actually has a clue as to what time really is?


The argument from motion says nothing about time nor is it concerned with it.

Bingo.
It is a sign of not understanding an argument when you try to refute it or address issues with it that have nothing to do with it.

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3474
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby Audie » Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:13 am

So words like "first' and "eternal" actually have nothing to do with time.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 7989
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:17 am

Audie wrote:So words like "first' and "eternal" actually have nothing to do with time.

No, they don't since time, as we understand it, only began when the universe began.
It doesn't apply to what there was "BEFORE".
But if you prefer something less abstract:

First means that it happened before IN SEQUENCE.
Eternal means ALWAYS existed.

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5799
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby Philip » Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:37 am

Energy cannot be eternal - it MUST have a source! Of course, one can speculate with all manner of theoreticals. And the energy that originally propelled the elements within the Big Bang had to be applied to such elements with great specificity. And the energy we observe is being used up. Stars burn out, etc.

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3474
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA

Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

Postby Audie » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:29 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Audie wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.


What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?


And what if nobody actually has a clue as to what time really is?


The argument from motion says nothing about time nor is it concerned with it.

Bingo.
It is a sign of not understanding an argument when you try to refute it or address issues with it that have nothing to do with it.


A sign of not reading what I've said is thinking I have tried to "refute" ca.
Speaking of "nothing to do with".


Return to “Questioning Non-belief”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests