Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
PaulSacramento
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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:53 am

I’ve never created a God, that’s what believers do. When I speak of God, I speak from what various theists have said, and are saying about God. So if you think I speak of a false concept of God, it is because there are a lot of theists out there who describe God this way.

Ken


I am sure you BELIEVE that Ken, that is why I have often said that you do NOT know the bible, much less God.
Please show me which theist has stated that the God is anything like this that you described:

Earlier a few pages back, I listed a few reasons, I believe it was to ablecainsbrother. It basically boils down to, the bible describes God as being all good, all knowing, all powerful and present everywhere. But when you look at the Bible, there seem to be specific times when God’s actions contradict those descriptions of him. Basically you can’t be all good, yet do bad things. You can’t be all knowing yet act surprised, or change your mind occasionally etc. etc.

Then there is my personal experiences; back in the day when I was a believer, and I tried to have a relationship with God, knowing what I went through to no avail; if God did exist I believe I would have experienced him. I guess the invisible and the non-existent sorta look alike to me; if something is invisible, to me that is evidence that it doesn't exist.


See Ken, these are your opinions.
You believe that the actions of God in the Bible are not consistent, not the actions of an all powerful and all loving God, BUT you don't state WHY this view you hold is correct ) other than it being your view).
See, you seem to take the "humanization" of God in the bible ( He is surprised or changes His mind) as contradictions to His omniscience BUT have you ever studied the subject at all?
Studied the answers to your issues with how the bible portrays God at times?

As for you not experiencing God, I have to ask you, How do you know?

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby Kenny » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:33 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
I’ve never created a God, that’s what believers do. When I speak of God, I speak from what various theists have said, and are saying about God. So if you think I speak of a false concept of God, it is because there are a lot of theists out there who describe God this way.

Ken


I am sure you BELIEVE that Ken, that is why I have often said that you do NOT know the bible, much less God.
Please show me which theist has stated that the God is anything like this that you described:

Earlier a few pages back, I listed a few reasons, I believe it was to ablecainsbrother. It basically boils down to, the bible describes God as being all good, all knowing, all powerful and present everywhere. But when you look at the Bible, there seem to be specific times when God’s actions contradict those descriptions of him. Basically you can’t be all good, yet do bad things. You can’t be all knowing yet act surprised, or change your mind occasionally etc. etc.

Then there is my personal experiences; back in the day when I was a believer, and I tried to have a relationship with God, knowing what I went through to no avail; if God did exist I believe I would have experienced him. I guess the invisible and the non-existent sorta look alike to me; if something is invisible, to me that is evidence that it doesn't exist.


See Ken, these are your opinions.
You believe that the actions of God in the Bible are not consistent, not the actions of an all powerful and all loving God, BUT you don't state WHY this view you hold is correct ) other than it being your view).
See, you seem to take the "humanization" of God in the bible ( He is surprised or changes His mind) as contradictions to His omniscience BUT have you ever studied the subject at all?
Studied the answers to your issues with how the bible portrays God at times?

As for you not experiencing God, I have to ask you, How do you know?

The reason I didn't answer many of the questions you asked is because those points I made were responses to specific questions that were asked, so I just answered the question that was asked.
How do I know I never experienced God? Because I never recognized an experience.

Ken

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:40 am

How do I know I never experienced God? Because I never recognized an experience.

Ken


How so?

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby Kenny » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:43 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
How do I know I never experienced God? Because I never recognized an experience.

Ken


How so?

It doesn't make sense for a Good person to give me an important message in a language I do not understand; do you agree?

Ken

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:06 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
How do I know I never experienced God? Because I never recognized an experience.

Ken


How so?

It doesn't make sense for a Good person to give me an important message in a language I do not understand; do you agree?

Ken

Ken, I am asking you, simply, how you have come to the conclusion that you have never experienced God and you responded that you never recognized the experience.
I asked "how so?".

Ken, a blind person may never experience the colour red, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I am sure we can agree with that.
Until you get burnt the first time you will NOT recognise what it is to be burnt AND only after being told , "that is a burn" will you understand what happened.

Do you understand what I am saying?

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby Audie » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:27 am

B. W. wrote:Let's see, bad judgment is a foible of all humanity.

Kenny, have you made bad judgments?

Please don't lie...

You choose everyday and your judgment is faulty. To say otherwise is simply a hubris statement...
-
-
-


The infallible judgement that led some here to their "choice" to believe in "God" led them also to
some rather fantastically insensible beliefs.


Some have suggested, probably quite rightly, that I am tiresome about the subject of the "flood". Possibly for some coz some done want to have to face the subject openly.

Those who choose to just not look at the subject tend to make the choice
that "well, I believe the bible, so, whatever it says is true". Pre-enlightenment era thinking, the kind that would have kept the world in the dark ages, still does for much of it.

For those not unwilling to look into it a bit, they are left with intellectual dishonesty, if that is not too grand a term for
making up things like that the glaciers musta been stuck down. Or of course, denial.

Now, there may be a God, and it may be that some who "choose" to believe are right, even if they dont know why, or use faulty reasoning.

But here is a problem for me with the logic of presented for belief in god:

The same thought process demonstrably leads to nonsense.

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:51 am

Not sure what your issues about the flood are BUT there are two camps in Christianity ( and even in Judaism) and that it was a global one or a local one.
The wording in genesis allows fo either interpretation to be valid.
Pretty much every scholar agrees with that.

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby Audie » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:22 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Not sure what your issues about the flood are BUT there are two camps in Christianity ( and even in Judaism) and that it was a global one or a local one.
The wording in genesis allows fo either interpretation to be valid.
Pretty much every scholar agrees with that.


Hence the popularity of the bible

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby Kenny » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:44 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
How do I know I never experienced God? Because I never recognized an experience.

Ken


How so?

It doesn't make sense for a Good person to give me an important message in a language I do not understand; do you agree?

Ken

Ken, I am asking you, simply, how you have come to the conclusion that you have never experienced God and you responded that you never recognized the experience.
I asked "how so?".


Let me put it this way; all of my experiences can be accounted for; I don’t think I’ve ever had an experience where I said; “What was that?” and I was never able to figure out what it was. So of all of my experiences, none of them I concluded was God,( in other words, hypothetically if I did experience God, I would have attributed that experience to something else) thus I claim to have never experienced God.

Ken

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:41 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
How do I know I never experienced God? Because I never recognized an experience.

Ken


How so?

It doesn't make sense for a Good person to give me an important message in a language I do not understand; do you agree?

Ken

Ken, I am asking you, simply, how you have come to the conclusion that you have never experienced God and you responded that you never recognized the experience.
I asked "how so?".


Let me put it this way; all of my experiences can be accounted for; I don’t think I’ve ever had an experience where I said; “What was that?” and I was never able to figure out what it was. So of all of my experiences, none of them I concluded was God,( in other words, hypothetically if I did experience God, I would have attributed that experience to something else) thus I claim to have never experienced God.

Ken


Ah, thanks Ken, I understand.

I can only speak for myself and my personal revelation so, take it for what you can:
I never had a sense of God when I was younger, even being brought up in RC family ( we were never religious to be honest) I was more agnostic than anything else.
I had some very serious issues with God, far more than most writing here but of course, since I knew I had those issues I new that, on some level, I believed in God ( you don't have issues with things that don't exist).
The thing is that, when Christ finally revealed Himself to me, when I finally heard Him, it was NOTHING like I ASSUMED it would be. But I KNEW it was Him and I realized that He had ALWAYS been there.
It wasn't that I never experienced Him before or that He had never "given me a sign", it was that, until I was ready, I simply didn't WANT to hear it ( even though I thought that I did want to, when I look back and I am honest about, I realize that I didn't).

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby RickD » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:06 am

So, let me see if I have this right...

Ken has never experienced an imaginary god that he made up in his mind.

Come on Kenny, at least when I was a child, I had a pink elephant as an imaginary friend. And let me tell you, he was as real as any of the real friends I had.
:pound:
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:44 am

RickD wrote:So, let me see if I have this right...

Ken has never experienced an imaginary god that he made up in his mind.

Come on Kenny, at least when I was a child, I had a pink elephant as an imaginary friend. And let me tell you, he was as real as any of the real friends I had.
:pound:

Actually, and not to play Ken's advocate here, it is a common misconception that many non-believers have ( and some believers too) that when God speaks it is a HUGE and UNDENIABLE event, ala prophetic visions in the bible.
That is not always the case.
So I can understand the view that some have that they have never experienced God IF what they are "waiting for" is this "life-changing intervention" from God.

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby Kenny » Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:47 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
How so?

It doesn't make sense for a Good person to give me an important message in a language I do not understand; do you agree?

Ken

Ken, I am asking you, simply, how you have come to the conclusion that you have never experienced God and you responded that you never recognized the experience.
I asked "how so?".


Let me put it this way; all of my experiences can be accounted for; I don’t think I’ve ever had an experience where I said; “What was that?” and I was never able to figure out what it was. So of all of my experiences, none of them I concluded was God,( in other words, hypothetically if I did experience God, I would have attributed that experience to something else) thus I claim to have never experienced God.

Ken


Ah, thanks Ken, I understand.

I can only speak for myself and my personal revelation so, take it for what you can:
I never had a sense of God when I was younger, even being brought up in RC family ( we were never religious to be honest) I was more agnostic than anything else.
I had some very serious issues with God, far more than most writing here but of course, since I knew I had those issues I new that, on some level, I believed in God ( you don't have issues with things that don't exist).
The thing is that, when Christ finally revealed Himself to me, when I finally heard Him, it was NOTHING like I ASSUMED it would be. But I KNEW it was Him and I realized that He had ALWAYS been there.
It wasn't that I never experienced Him before or that He had never "given me a sign", it was that, until I was ready, I simply didn't WANT to hear it ( even though I thought that I did want to, when I look back and I am honest about, I realize that I didn't).

That was very insightful; thanks for sharing that with me.

Ken

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby Kenny » Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:53 am

RickD wrote:So, let me see if I have this right...

Ken has never experienced an imaginary god that he made up in his mind.

Come on Kenny, at least when I was a child, I had a pink elephant as an imaginary friend. And let me tell you, he was as real as any of the real friends I had.
:pound:

You believed in Pink Elephants? I used to believe the life of all of mankind was cartoons for creatures on another planet. I used to believe just as I would look and laugh at Tom and Jerry on tv, some alien on another planet is looking and laughing at me and my brothers through their TV; eating dinner, playing with the dog, or doing our homework. Just because that isn't funny to us, doesn't mean it isn't funny to the creatures on another planet.

Ken

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:12 pm

That was very insightful; thanks for sharing that with me.

Ken


You are truly welcome but please realize that I am speakinG ONLY for myself and no one else.
I am not suggesting that it may be the case with you.


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