Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Kurieuo
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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#106

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:05 pm

Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Children show a natural inclination towards religious concepts such as mind–body dualism and belief in divine agents (i.e., spirits and God). It doesn't matter if their parents are Atheist or Christian.

If this is true, then does this mean there is a predisposition towards such beliefs in "human nature"? If not, why not?
I don't know how much truth there is to that claim; I'm just saying if a child does NOT have such a natural inclination, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the child, or that the child is purposely ignoring it.
Well, that is what studies in the realm of cognitive sciences strongly support.
I've read what you presented and I do not agree it said that. I believe you are making a leap in assumption when you make that claim. I believe your claim is not backed up by the evidence you provided.
Kenny wrote:Again; atheism is the default position. Do you know what that means?
:roll: It means it is clear you'll believe what you want to believe Kenny: Your opinion vs studies by those in the know.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#107

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:03 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Children show a natural inclination towards religious concepts such as mind–body dualism and belief in divine agents (i.e., spirits and God). It doesn't matter if their parents are Atheist or Christian.

If this is true, then does this mean there is a predisposition towards such beliefs in "human nature"? If not, why not?
I don't know how much truth there is to that claim; I'm just saying if a child does NOT have such a natural inclination, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the child, or that the child is purposely ignoring it.
Well, that is what studies in the realm of cognitive sciences strongly support.
I've read what you presented and I do not agree it said that. I believe you are making a leap in assumption when you make that claim. I believe your claim is not backed up by the evidence you provided.
Kenny wrote:Again; atheism is the default position. Do you know what that means?
:roll: It means it is clear you'll believe what you want to believe Kenny: Your opinion vs studies by those in the know.
No, that is not the definition of the default position.

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#108

Post by abelcainsbrother » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:58 pm

Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote: Below is some of the evidence I see that tells me Christianity isn’t what you believe it is.
Some of the stories in the Bible like Jonah and the Whale, or Noah’s Ark, or Joshua causing the Sun to sit still during war? Those stories don’t sound realistic to me. And before you go saying all those stories are allegory or just stories designed to make a point; remember Jesus compared his death to Jonah in the Whale (Matthew 12:40) and he also compared his return to Noah’s Ark (Matthew 24:37-39). So if Jesus believed it, so should all Christians.
 
God is said to be Omniscient, (all knowing) Yet he is known to have exhibited surprise, jealousy, even choosing to change his mind; something flawed humans do because we are NOT omniscient, we continue to learn.
God is said to be Omnipresent, (present everywhere) yet he was able to pass by Moses allowing him only to see his backside; suggesting he was able to go to a place where he was not.
God is said to be  Omnibenovelent, (all good) But when I read about the mistreatment of Job, Adam and Eve, the treatment of the people of Egypt and countless others; that doesn’t sound realistic either.
He is also said to be omnipotent (unlimited power) Yet he allows his enemy (Devil) to have more influence over his children than he does.

It doesn’t make sense to me that he is any of those things because if he were, I believe he would have done things differently. IOW when I read what the Bible says about God, the best of my understanding tells me the Bible is not true, and if the Bible is not true, why would I believe what the Bible describes as God IS God?

Okay; your turn.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote:First off.What are you backing up with evidence confirming it is true? Atheist or Agnostic? None of what you posted is evidence either is true and that you should accept it. You are not giving evidence but just explaining things the bible said that you don't understand,but it is not evidence your opinion is true.
Atheism is not a position of truth, it is a position of what is NOT the truth. Do you know the difference?
abelcainsbrother wrote:Also we already know our bible cannot be proven 100% and it requires faith to believe some of it but there is more evidence Christianity is true over any other religion.
I don’t believe the other religions either. To compare Christianity to something that equals “nothing” doesn’t get you anywhere
abelcainsbrother wrote:Also the bible will not and does not fully make sense without the Holy Spirit. Do you have the Holy Spirit?
Perhaps that’s why I don’t accept it.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote: So you just accept things based on how you feel about it regardless of evidence?
Evidence is why I have the opinions that I have
abelcainsbrother wrote: Which is why you've chosen atheism.
Atheism is the default position of theism. Because I don’t accept Theism, I am labeled Atheist.
abelcainsbrother wrote: How can you know what the truth is when you lower your standards so far low when it comes to evidence to accept atheism? Which has no evidence behind it as you admitted.
Again; atheism is the default position. Do you know what that means?

Ken
Default position = Absolutely no evidence.
Exactly. Now if you come up with some evidence, feel free to present it. I will either accept it or reject it. Till then, it's been nice discussing with you my friend!

Peace
Ken
You do realize that lies do not really have evidence behind them but the truth does.See,you are coming to the table with nothing to hedge your bets with,only your opinion and no evidence. For whatever reason you have chosen to accept atheism based on no evidence,knowingly also. Now,why do I get the feeling you are luring me into the "atheist deny evidence while having none" game? Evidence is not important to you based on the atheistic opinion you accepted. But my evidence is to tell you to believe in Jesus Christ and ask him to save you,to change you and to be your Lord.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#109

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:06 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:

Atheism is not a position of truth, it is a position of what is NOT the truth. Do you know the difference?

I don’t believe the other religions either. To compare Christianity to something that equals “nothing” doesn’t get you anywhere

Perhaps that’s why I don’t accept it.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote: So you just accept things based on how you feel about it regardless of evidence?
Evidence is why I have the opinions that I have
abelcainsbrother wrote: Which is why you've chosen atheism.
Atheism is the default position of theism. Because I don’t accept Theism, I am labeled Atheist.
abelcainsbrother wrote: How can you know what the truth is when you lower your standards so far low when it comes to evidence to accept atheism? Which has no evidence behind it as you admitted.
Again; atheism is the default position. Do you know what that means?

Ken
Default position = Absolutely no evidence.
Exactly. Now if you come up with some evidence, feel free to present it. I will either accept it or reject it. Till then, it's been nice discussing with you my friend!

Peace
Ken
You do realize that lies do not really have evidence behind them but the truth does.See,you are coming to the table with nothing to hedge your bets with,only your opinion and no evidence. For whatever reason you have chosen to accept atheism based on no evidence,knowingly also. Now,why do I get the feeling you are luring me into the "atheist deny evidence while having none" game? Evidence is not important to you based on the atheistic opinion you accepted. But my evidence is to tell you to believe in Jesus Christ and ask him to save you,to change you and to be your Lord.
You have this misconception that Atheism is a position that is to be accepted or rejected; it is not. I bring nothing to the table; only you. And I reject what you bring to the table, and I’ve explained why.

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#110

Post by abelcainsbrother » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:19 pm

Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:

Evidence is why I have the opinions that I have

Atheism is the default position of theism. Because I don’t accept Theism, I am labeled Atheist.

Again; atheism is the default position. Do you know what that means?

Ken
Default position = Absolutely no evidence.
Exactly. Now if you come up with some evidence, feel free to present it. I will either accept it or reject it. Till then, it's been nice discussing with you my friend!

Peace
Ken
You do realize that lies do not really have evidence behind them but the truth does.See,you are coming to the table with nothing to hedge your bets with,only your opinion and no evidence. For whatever reason you have chosen to accept atheism based on no evidence,knowingly also. Now,why do I get the feeling you are luring me into the "atheist deny evidence while having none" game? Evidence is not important to you based on the atheistic opinion you accepted. But my evidence is to tell you to believe in Jesus Christ and ask him to save you,to change you and to be your Lord.
You have this misconception that Atheism is a position that is to be accepted or rejected; it is not. I bring nothing to the table; only you. And I reject what you bring to the table, and I’ve explained why.

Ken
I thought you said you were atheist.Are you now claiming you did not make a choice? How do I have a misconception? You have accepted and have chosen atheism.You just keep proving me right about no evidence for atheism.How did you accept atheism knowing there was no evidence it is true. How come when it comes to God you claim to want evidence yet give atheists a pass and choose to accept it? For more evidence I will refer you to the shroud of Turin thread on here.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

Kenny
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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#111

Post by Kenny » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:02 pm

Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Default position = Absolutely no evidence.
Exactly. Now if you come up with some evidence, feel free to present it. I will either accept it or reject it. Till then, it's been nice discussing with you my friend!

Peace
Ken
You do realize that lies do not really have evidence behind them but the truth does.See,you are coming to the table with nothing to hedge your bets with,only your opinion and no evidence. For whatever reason you have chosen to accept atheism based on no evidence,knowingly also. Now,why do I get the feeling you are luring me into the "atheist deny evidence while having none" game? Evidence is not important to you based on the atheistic opinion you accepted. But my evidence is to tell you to believe in Jesus Christ and ask him to save you,to change you and to be your Lord.
You have this misconception that Atheism is a position that is to be accepted or rejected; it is not. I bring nothing to the table; only you. And I reject what you bring to the table, and I’ve explained why.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote: I thought you said you were atheist.
I am a skeptic, but because one of the many things I am skeptical about is God, I am labeled an atheist.
abelcainsbrother wrote: Are you now claiming you did not make a choice?
Make a choice? Belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. Until reason and logic demands I buy what you’re selling, I will remain skeptical to your claims.
abelcainsbrother wrote: How do I have a misconception? You have accepted and have chosen atheism.You just keep proving me right about no evidence for atheism.How did you accept atheism knowing there was no evidence it is true.
What do you believe Atheism claims as true?
abelcainsbrother wrote: How come when it comes to God you claim to want evidence yet give atheists a pass and choose to accept it? For more evidence I will refer you to the shroud of Turin thread on here.
I am labeled an Atheist because I don’t believe in God. How is this giving atheism a pass?

As far as the Shroud of Turin, even the Catholic Church will not claim it as the actual burial cloth of Jesus; and they know more about it than any of us.

Ken
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abelcainsbrother (Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:11 pm)
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

abelcainsbrother
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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#112

Post by abelcainsbrother » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:28 pm

Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Default position = Absolutely no evidence.
Exactly. Now if you come up with some evidence, feel free to present it. I will either accept it or reject it. Till then, it's been nice discussing with you my friend!

Peace
Ken
You do realize that lies do not really have evidence behind them but the truth does.See,you are coming to the table with nothing to hedge your bets with,only your opinion and no evidence. For whatever reason you have chosen to accept atheism based on no evidence,knowingly also. Now,why do I get the feeling you are luring me into the "atheist deny evidence while having none" game? Evidence is not important to you based on the atheistic opinion you accepted. But my evidence is to tell you to believe in Jesus Christ and ask him to save you,to change you and to be your Lord.
You have this misconception that Atheism is a position that is to be accepted or rejected; it is not. I bring nothing to the table; only you. And I reject what you bring to the table, and I’ve explained why.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote: I thought you said you were atheist.
I am a skeptic, but because one of the many things I am skeptical about is God, I am labeled an atheist.
abelcainsbrother wrote: Are you now claiming you did not make a choice?
Make a choice? Belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. Until reason and logic demands I buy what you’re selling, I will remain skeptical to your claims.
abelcainsbrother wrote: How do I have a misconception? You have accepted and have chosen atheism.You just keep proving me right about no evidence for atheism.How did you accept atheism knowing there was no evidence it is true.
What do you believe Atheism claims as true?
abelcainsbrother wrote: How come when it comes to God you claim to want evidence yet give atheists a pass and choose to accept it? For more evidence I will refer you to the shroud of Turin thread on here.
I am labeled an Atheist because I don’t believe in God. How is this giving atheism a pass?

As far as the Shroud of Turin, even the Catholic Church will not claim it as the actual burial cloth of Jesus; and they know more about it than any of us.

Ken
How come skeptics do not value evidence and choose to accept atheistic opinions where the atheists are claiming that they are excluded from needing to have evidence yet accept it anyway? Yet when it comes to God they become a skeptic based on just an opinion? Evidence is how we determine truth and it frees us or not based on evidence. So far I've given you two examples of evidence while all you've presented is your non-belief opinion without evidence. This is why you cannot tell when you are confronted with evidence and can just overlook it and explain it away,it is because you were scammed by some atheist who convinced you that you can be an atheist and do not have to have any evidence to be one,and that because you choose atheism you are special and are excluded from needing to have evidence,only others must have evidence or we reject it and you fell for it. But I have exposed the game atheists play for you.Now you know.

Here is even more evidence Christianity is true but through a song.

The Boys Are'nt Backing Down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAXRcG2HiyM
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

Kenny
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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#113

Post by Kenny » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:50 am

Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote: Exactly. Now if you come up with some evidence, feel free to present it. I will either accept it or reject it. Till then, it's been nice discussing with you my friend!

Peace
Ken
You do realize that lies do not really have evidence behind them but the truth does.See,you are coming to the table with nothing to hedge your bets with,only your opinion and no evidence. For whatever reason you have chosen to accept atheism based on no evidence,knowingly also. Now,why do I get the feeling you are luring me into the "atheist deny evidence while having none" game? Evidence is not important to you based on the atheistic opinion you accepted. But my evidence is to tell you to believe in Jesus Christ and ask him to save you,to change you and to be your Lord.
You have this misconception that Atheism is a position that is to be accepted or rejected; it is not. I bring nothing to the table; only you. And I reject what you bring to the table, and I’ve explained why.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote: I thought you said you were atheist.
I am a skeptic, but because one of the many things I am skeptical about is God, I am labeled an atheist.
abelcainsbrother wrote: Are you now claiming you did not make a choice?
Make a choice? Belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. Until reason and logic demands I buy what you’re selling, I will remain skeptical to your claims.
abelcainsbrother wrote: How do I have a misconception? You have accepted and have chosen atheism.You just keep proving me right about no evidence for atheism.How did you accept atheism knowing there was no evidence it is true.
What do you believe Atheism claims as true?
abelcainsbrother wrote: How come when it comes to God you claim to want evidence yet give atheists a pass and choose to accept it? For more evidence I will refer you to the shroud of Turin thread on here.
I am labeled an Atheist because I don’t believe in God. How is this giving atheism a pass?

As far as the Shroud of Turin, even the Catholic Church will not claim it as the actual burial cloth of Jesus; and they know more about it than any of us.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote:How come skeptics do not value evidence
The reason I am a skeptic is because I accept evidence instead of faith, trust, or simply taking someone else's word for it.
abelcainsbrother wrote:and choose to accept atheistic opinions where the atheists are claiming that they are excluded from needing to have evidence yet accept it anyway? Yet when it comes to God they become a skeptic based on just an opinion?
Again; what are these “atheistic opinions” you keep speaking of? I’ve got a feeling the problem is you are having trouble understanding what an atheist, or even a skeptic actually is! This is something we need to clarify before we can go any further because otherwise we will just be talking past each other. Again; what are some of these atheistic opinions that you are convinced atheists hold?

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

abelcainsbrother
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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#114

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:07 pm

Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote: Exactly. Now if you come up with some evidence, feel free to present it. I will either accept it or reject it. Till then, it's been nice discussing with you my friend!

Peace
Ken
You do realize that lies do not really have evidence behind them but the truth does.See,you are coming to the table with nothing to hedge your bets with,only your opinion and no evidence. For whatever reason you have chosen to accept atheism based on no evidence,knowingly also. Now,why do I get the feeling you are luring me into the "atheist deny evidence while having none" game? Evidence is not important to you based on the atheistic opinion you accepted. But my evidence is to tell you to believe in Jesus Christ and ask him to save you,to change you and to be your Lord.
You have this misconception that Atheism is a position that is to be accepted or rejected; it is not. I bring nothing to the table; only you. And I reject what you bring to the table, and I’ve explained why.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote: I thought you said you were atheist.
I am a skeptic, but because one of the many things I am skeptical about is God, I am labeled an atheist.
abelcainsbrother wrote: Are you now claiming you did not make a choice?
Make a choice? Belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. Until reason and logic demands I buy what you’re selling, I will remain skeptical to your claims.
abelcainsbrother wrote: How do I have a misconception? You have accepted and have chosen atheism.You just keep proving me right about no evidence for atheism.How did you accept atheism knowing there was no evidence it is true.
What do you believe Atheism claims as true?
abelcainsbrother wrote: How come when it comes to God you claim to want evidence yet give atheists a pass and choose to accept it? For more evidence I will refer you to the shroud of Turin thread on here.
I am labeled an Atheist because I don’t believe in God. How is this giving atheism a pass?

As far as the Shroud of Turin, even the Catholic Church will not claim it as the actual burial cloth of Jesus; and they know more about it than any of us.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote:How come skeptics do not value evidence
The reason I am a skeptic is because I accept evidence instead of faith, trust, or simply taking someone else's word for it.
abelcainsbrother wrote:and choose to accept atheistic opinions where the atheists are claiming that they are excluded from needing to have evidence yet accept it anyway? Yet when it comes to God they become a skeptic based on just an opinion?
Again; what are these “atheistic opinions” you keep speaking of? I’ve got a feeling the problem is you are having trouble understanding what an atheist, or even a skeptic actually is! This is something we need to clarify before we can go any further because otherwise we will just be talking past each other. Again; what are some of these atheistic opinions that you are convinced atheists hold?

Ken
Kenny there is no way you can say you go by evidence instead of faith after having admitted you have chosen atheism knowing there is no evidence or reasons to choose to accept atheism while ignoring the massive amount of evidence behind Christianity,but in this case even false religions bring more evidence to the table than you have or can. You see before I ever had these kinds of discussions with atheists I used to have these kind of discussions with people in other religions and had to confront their evidence,but with atheists/agnostics they have no evidence to confront,just arguments against God is all they've got,but this is not evidence to know atheism is a choice a person should make because of no evidence behind their opinion of atheism.I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or anything like that. I'm trying to get you to realize the games atheists play on people like you and after I have done it,you can accept it or reject it,but you will not be able to be intellectually honest with yourself after I am done and this is why you are getting uncomfortable about this discussion but whether you accept it or not you cannot refute it and you'll have to live knowing this.
Again; what are these “atheistic opinions” you keep speaking of? I’ve got a feeling the problem is you are having trouble understanding what an atheist, or even a skeptic actually is! This is something we need to clarify before we can go any further because otherwise we will just be talking past each other. Again; what are some of these atheistic opinions that you are convinced atheists hold?
It does not matter what an atheist or a skeptic really is. You are focusing on the wrong thing. You should be focusing on how atheists convince people to be an atheist,Skeptic,etc based on the idea that they are excluded from having to have any evidence based on the default position,so they exclude themselves from needing to have any evidence behind their atheistic opinions that leads them to reject god's. They have absolutely no evidence yet judge others evidence based on their atheistic opinion that has no evidence behind it.There is no reason based on evidence to choose to be an atheist compared to the evidence in Christianity,other false religions,science,etc. Atheists have nothing to bring to the table except their judgmental atheistic opinion.Nobody should choose atheism based on this.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

Kenny
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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#115

Post by Kenny » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:26 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
You do realize that lies do not really have evidence behind them but the truth does.See,you are coming to the table with nothing to hedge your bets with,only your opinion and no evidence. For whatever reason you have chosen to accept atheism based on no evidence,knowingly also. Now,why do I get the feeling you are luring me into the "atheist deny evidence while having none" game? Evidence is not important to you based on the atheistic opinion you accepted. But my evidence is to tell you to believe in Jesus Christ and ask him to save you,to change you and to be your Lord.
You have this misconception that Atheism is a position that is to be accepted or rejected; it is not. I bring nothing to the table; only you. And I reject what you bring to the table, and I’ve explained why.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote: I thought you said you were atheist.
I am a skeptic, but because one of the many things I am skeptical about is God, I am labeled an atheist.
abelcainsbrother wrote: Are you now claiming you did not make a choice?
Make a choice? Belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. Until reason and logic demands I buy what you’re selling, I will remain skeptical to your claims.
abelcainsbrother wrote: How do I have a misconception? You have accepted and have chosen atheism.You just keep proving me right about no evidence for atheism.How did you accept atheism knowing there was no evidence it is true.
What do you believe Atheism claims as true?
abelcainsbrother wrote: How come when it comes to God you claim to want evidence yet give atheists a pass and choose to accept it? For more evidence I will refer you to the shroud of Turin thread on here.
I am labeled an Atheist because I don’t believe in God. How is this giving atheism a pass?

As far as the Shroud of Turin, even the Catholic Church will not claim it as the actual burial cloth of Jesus; and they know more about it than any of us.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote:How come skeptics do not value evidence
The reason I am a skeptic is because I accept evidence instead of faith, trust, or simply taking someone else's word for it.
abelcainsbrother wrote:and choose to accept atheistic opinions where the atheists are claiming that they are excluded from needing to have evidence yet accept it anyway? Yet when it comes to God they become a skeptic based on just an opinion?
Again; what are these “atheistic opinions” you keep speaking of? I’ve got a feeling the problem is you are having trouble understanding what an atheist, or even a skeptic actually is! This is something we need to clarify before we can go any further because otherwise we will just be talking past each other. Again; what are some of these atheistic opinions that you are convinced atheists hold?

Ken
Kenny there is no way you can say you go by evidence instead of faith after having admitted you have chosen atheism knowing there is no evidence or reasons to choose to accept atheism while ignoring the massive amount of evidence behind Christianity,but in this case even false religions bring more evidence to the table than you have or can. You see before I ever had these kinds of discussions with atheists I used to have these kind of discussions with people in other religions and had to confront their evidence,but with atheists/agnostics they have no evidence to confront,just arguments against God is all they've got,but this is not evidence to know atheism is a choice a person should make because of no evidence behind their opinion of atheism.I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or anything like that. I'm trying to get you to realize the games atheists play on people like you and after I have done it,you can accept it or reject it,but you will not be able to be intellectually honest with yourself after I am done and this is why you are getting uncomfortable about this discussion but whether you accept it or not you cannot refute it and you'll have to live knowing this.
Again; what are these “atheistic opinions” you keep speaking of? I’ve got a feeling the problem is you are having trouble understanding what an atheist, or even a skeptic actually is! This is something we need to clarify before we can go any further because otherwise we will just be talking past each other. Again; what are some of these atheistic opinions that you are convinced atheists hold?
It does not matter what an atheist or a skeptic really is. You are focusing on the wrong thing. You should be focusing on how atheists convince people to be an atheist,Skeptic,etc based on the idea that they are excluded from having to have any evidence based on the default position,so they exclude themselves from needing to have any evidence behind their atheistic opinions that leads them to reject god's. They have absolutely no evidence yet judge others evidence based on their atheistic opinion that has no evidence behind it.There is no reason based on evidence to choose to be an atheist compared to the evidence in Christianity,other false religions,science,etc. Atheists have nothing to bring to the table except their judgmental atheistic opinion.Nobody should choose atheism based on this.
Are you going to answer my question? Or are you going to continue to repeat the same misinformation over and over again?

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#116

Post by RickD » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:33 pm

Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Default position = Absolutely no evidence.
Exactly. Now if you come up with some evidence, feel free to present it. I will either accept it or reject it. Till then, it's been nice discussing with you my friend!

Peace
Ken
You do realize that lies do not really have evidence behind them but the truth does.See,you are coming to the table with nothing to hedge your bets with,only your opinion and no evidence. For whatever reason you have chosen to accept atheism based on no evidence,knowingly also. Now,why do I get the feeling you are luring me into the "atheist deny evidence while having none" game? Evidence is not important to you based on the atheistic opinion you accepted. But my evidence is to tell you to believe in Jesus Christ and ask him to save you,to change you and to be your Lord.
You have this misconception that Atheism is a position that is to be accepted or rejected; it is not. I bring nothing to the table; only you. And I reject what you bring to the table, and I’ve explained why.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote: I thought you said you were atheist.
I am a skeptic, but because one of the many things I am skeptical about is God, I am labeled an atheist.
abelcainsbrother wrote: Are you now claiming you did not make a choice?
Make a choice? Belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. Until reason and logic demands I buy what you’re selling, I will remain skeptical to your claims.
abelcainsbrother wrote: How do I have a misconception? You have accepted and have chosen atheism.You just keep proving me right about no evidence for atheism.How did you accept atheism knowing there was no evidence it is true.
What do you believe Atheism claims as true?
abelcainsbrother wrote: How come when it comes to God you claim to want evidence yet give atheists a pass and choose to accept it? For more evidence I will refer you to the shroud of Turin thread on here.
I am labeled an Atheist because I don’t believe in God. How is this giving atheism a pass?

As far as the Shroud of Turin, even the Catholic Church will not claim it as the actual burial cloth of Jesus; and they know more about it than any of us.

Ken
Ken,

FYI,

You're labeled as an atheist, because you yourself have said you are an atheist. Here's one example of you calling yourself an atheist, not someone else wrongly labeling you:
I realize much of what I say as an atheist might sound crazy to you as a christian; but you also need to realize that much of what you say as a Christian sounds crazy to me as an atheist. The difference is; rather than condesending remarks I explain why what you say sounds crazy to me. All that I ask is that you grant me the same courtesy.
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 88#p154488

And here, you self-identified as an atheist too:
I'm an atheist and I've come foreword; where did you go?

Ken
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 46#p174746
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#117

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:45 pm

Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
You have this misconception that Atheism is a position that is to be accepted or rejected; it is not. I bring nothing to the table; only you. And I reject what you bring to the table, and I’ve explained why.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote: I thought you said you were atheist.
I am a skeptic, but because one of the many things I am skeptical about is God, I am labeled an atheist.
abelcainsbrother wrote: Are you now claiming you did not make a choice?
Make a choice? Belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. Until reason and logic demands I buy what you’re selling, I will remain skeptical to your claims.
abelcainsbrother wrote: How do I have a misconception? You have accepted and have chosen atheism.You just keep proving me right about no evidence for atheism.How did you accept atheism knowing there was no evidence it is true.
What do you believe Atheism claims as true?
abelcainsbrother wrote: How come when it comes to God you claim to want evidence yet give atheists a pass and choose to accept it? For more evidence I will refer you to the shroud of Turin thread on here.
I am labeled an Atheist because I don’t believe in God. How is this giving atheism a pass?

As far as the Shroud of Turin, even the Catholic Church will not claim it as the actual burial cloth of Jesus; and they know more about it than any of us.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote:How come skeptics do not value evidence
The reason I am a skeptic is because I accept evidence instead of faith, trust, or simply taking someone else's word for it.
abelcainsbrother wrote:and choose to accept atheistic opinions where the atheists are claiming that they are excluded from needing to have evidence yet accept it anyway? Yet when it comes to God they become a skeptic based on just an opinion?
Again; what are these “atheistic opinions” you keep speaking of? I’ve got a feeling the problem is you are having trouble understanding what an atheist, or even a skeptic actually is! This is something we need to clarify before we can go any further because otherwise we will just be talking past each other. Again; what are some of these atheistic opinions that you are convinced atheists hold?

Ken
Kenny there is no way you can say you go by evidence instead of faith after having admitted you have chosen atheism knowing there is no evidence or reasons to choose to accept atheism while ignoring the massive amount of evidence behind Christianity,but in this case even false religions bring more evidence to the table than you have or can. You see before I ever had these kinds of discussions with atheists I used to have these kind of discussions with people in other religions and had to confront their evidence,but with atheists/agnostics they have no evidence to confront,just arguments against God is all they've got,but this is not evidence to know atheism is a choice a person should make because of no evidence behind their opinion of atheism.I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or anything like that. I'm trying to get you to realize the games atheists play on people like you and after I have done it,you can accept it or reject it,but you will not be able to be intellectually honest with yourself after I am done and this is why you are getting uncomfortable about this discussion but whether you accept it or not you cannot refute it and you'll have to live knowing this.
Again; what are these “atheistic opinions” you keep speaking of? I’ve got a feeling the problem is you are having trouble understanding what an atheist, or even a skeptic actually is! This is something we need to clarify before we can go any further because otherwise we will just be talking past each other. Again; what are some of these atheistic opinions that you are convinced atheists hold?
It does not matter what an atheist or a skeptic really is. You are focusing on the wrong thing. You should be focusing on how atheists convince people to be an atheist,Skeptic,etc based on the idea that they are excluded from having to have any evidence based on the default position,so they exclude themselves from needing to have any evidence behind their atheistic opinions that leads them to reject god's. They have absolutely no evidence yet judge others evidence based on their atheistic opinion that has no evidence behind it.There is no reason based on evidence to choose to be an atheist compared to the evidence in Christianity,other false religions,science,etc. Atheists have nothing to bring to the table except their judgmental atheistic opinion.Nobody should choose atheism based on this.
Are you going to answer my question? Or are you going to continue to repeat the same misinformation over and over again?

Ken
Atheists have accepted an opinion that causes them to reject god's.I call it an opinion based on knowing they have no evidence behind it. How do you know you are not wrong to have accepted your atheist opinion and do you care if you have truth on your side without any evidence? But if I have misunderstood something then please explain how.Have you called up any of your atheist friends and asked them for evidence atheism is the correct opinion to accept? Because they will explain to you why you don't have to have any evidence to be an atheist. Some of them explain it in a very philosophical way about why atheists are excluded and I have to admit it can seem very convincing but then you realize that underneath the fancy explanation they are explaining to you that they are excluding themselves and do not have to have any evidence.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#118

Post by Kenny » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:25 pm

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote: Exactly. Now if you come up with some evidence, feel free to present it. I will either accept it or reject it. Till then, it's been nice discussing with you my friend!

Peace
Ken
You do realize that lies do not really have evidence behind them but the truth does.See,you are coming to the table with nothing to hedge your bets with,only your opinion and no evidence. For whatever reason you have chosen to accept atheism based on no evidence,knowingly also. Now,why do I get the feeling you are luring me into the "atheist deny evidence while having none" game? Evidence is not important to you based on the atheistic opinion you accepted. But my evidence is to tell you to believe in Jesus Christ and ask him to save you,to change you and to be your Lord.
You have this misconception that Atheism is a position that is to be accepted or rejected; it is not. I bring nothing to the table; only you. And I reject what you bring to the table, and I’ve explained why.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote: I thought you said you were atheist.
I am a skeptic, but because one of the many things I am skeptical about is God, I am labeled an atheist.
abelcainsbrother wrote: Are you now claiming you did not make a choice?
Make a choice? Belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. Until reason and logic demands I buy what you’re selling, I will remain skeptical to your claims.
abelcainsbrother wrote: How do I have a misconception? You have accepted and have chosen atheism.You just keep proving me right about no evidence for atheism.How did you accept atheism knowing there was no evidence it is true.
What do you believe Atheism claims as true?
abelcainsbrother wrote: How come when it comes to God you claim to want evidence yet give atheists a pass and choose to accept it? For more evidence I will refer you to the shroud of Turin thread on here.
I am labeled an Atheist because I don’t believe in God. How is this giving atheism a pass?

As far as the Shroud of Turin, even the Catholic Church will not claim it as the actual burial cloth of Jesus; and they know more about it than any of us.

Ken
Ken,

FYI,

You're labeled as an atheist, because you yourself have said you are an atheist. Here's one example of you calling yourself an atheist, not someone else wrongly labeling you:
I realize much of what I say as an atheist might sound crazy to you as a christian; but you also need to realize that much of what you say as a Christian sounds crazy to me as an atheist. The difference is; rather than condesending remarks I explain why what you say sounds crazy to me. All that I ask is that you grant me the same courtesy.
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 88#p154488

And here, you self-identified as an atheist too:
I'm an atheist and I've come foreword; where did you go?

Ken
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 46#p174746
True! I generally consider myself skeptic but I recognize I am an atheist because of my skepticism towards God. I said labeled atheist because according to my understanding, it wasn’t non believers who labeled themselves atheist, it was theists who coined the term which was initially used as a perforative for non believers. They say when Christians were being thrown to the lions, they were called atheists; obviously they weren’t calling themselves that.
I also realize there are Christians who consider themselves skeptical as well thus calling myself Atheist makes my position on God a lot clearer.


Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#119

Post by Kenny » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:43 pm

Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:

I am a skeptic, but because one of the many things I am skeptical about is God, I am labeled an atheist.

Make a choice? Belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. Until reason and logic demands I buy what you’re selling, I will remain skeptical to your claims.

What do you believe Atheism claims as true?

I am labeled an Atheist because I don’t believe in God. How is this giving atheism a pass?

As far as the Shroud of Turin, even the Catholic Church will not claim it as the actual burial cloth of Jesus; and they know more about it than any of us.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote:How come skeptics do not value evidence
The reason I am a skeptic is because I accept evidence instead of faith, trust, or simply taking someone else's word for it.
abelcainsbrother wrote:and choose to accept atheistic opinions where the atheists are claiming that they are excluded from needing to have evidence yet accept it anyway? Yet when it comes to God they become a skeptic based on just an opinion?
Again; what are these “atheistic opinions” you keep speaking of? I’ve got a feeling the problem is you are having trouble understanding what an atheist, or even a skeptic actually is! This is something we need to clarify before we can go any further because otherwise we will just be talking past each other. Again; what are some of these atheistic opinions that you are convinced atheists hold?

Ken
Kenny there is no way you can say you go by evidence instead of faith after having admitted you have chosen atheism knowing there is no evidence or reasons to choose to accept atheism while ignoring the massive amount of evidence behind Christianity,but in this case even false religions bring more evidence to the table than you have or can. You see before I ever had these kinds of discussions with atheists I used to have these kind of discussions with people in other religions and had to confront their evidence,but with atheists/agnostics they have no evidence to confront,just arguments against God is all they've got,but this is not evidence to know atheism is a choice a person should make because of no evidence behind their opinion of atheism.I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or anything like that. I'm trying to get you to realize the games atheists play on people like you and after I have done it,you can accept it or reject it,but you will not be able to be intellectually honest with yourself after I am done and this is why you are getting uncomfortable about this discussion but whether you accept it or not you cannot refute it and you'll have to live knowing this.
Again; what are these “atheistic opinions” you keep speaking of? I’ve got a feeling the problem is you are having trouble understanding what an atheist, or even a skeptic actually is! This is something we need to clarify before we can go any further because otherwise we will just be talking past each other. Again; what are some of these atheistic opinions that you are convinced atheists hold?
It does not matter what an atheist or a skeptic really is. You are focusing on the wrong thing. You should be focusing on how atheists convince people to be an atheist,Skeptic,etc based on the idea that they are excluded from having to have any evidence based on the default position,so they exclude themselves from needing to have any evidence behind their atheistic opinions that leads them to reject god's. They have absolutely no evidence yet judge others evidence based on their atheistic opinion that has no evidence behind it.There is no reason based on evidence to choose to be an atheist compared to the evidence in Christianity,other false religions,science,etc. Atheists have nothing to bring to the table except their judgmental atheistic opinion.Nobody should choose atheism based on this.
Are you going to answer my question? Or are you going to continue to repeat the same misinformation over and over again?

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote:Atheists have accepted an opinion that causes them to reject god's.
What do you mean when you say “reject god’s”? Reject their existence? Reject they are who worshippers claim they are? Or something else.
abelcainsbrother wrote:I call it an opinion based on knowing they have no evidence behind it.
Do you believe someone should have evidence against a claim in order to reject it? Ex If I told you I were a billionaire, and you had no way of proving I am not, should you be obligated to take my word for it without me providing evidence that supports my claim to your satisfaction?
abelcainsbrother wrote:How do you know you are not wrong to have accepted your atheist opinion and do you care if you have truth on your side without any evidence?
Atheist opinion? Again; what opinion do you think Atheists have? And what truths do you think Atheists claim to have on their sides?
abelcainsbrother wrote:But if I have misunderstood something then please explain how.
I don’t think it is a matter of misunderstanding something; I think it is a matter of having misinformation.

Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

#120

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:50 pm

Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:

I am a skeptic, but because one of the many things I am skeptical about is God, I am labeled an atheist.

Make a choice? Belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. Until reason and logic demands I buy what you’re selling, I will remain skeptical to your claims.

What do you believe Atheism claims as true?

I am labeled an Atheist because I don’t believe in God. How is this giving atheism a pass?

As far as the Shroud of Turin, even the Catholic Church will not claim it as the actual burial cloth of Jesus; and they know more about it than any of us.

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote:How come skeptics do not value evidence
The reason I am a skeptic is because I accept evidence instead of faith, trust, or simply taking someone else's word for it.
abelcainsbrother wrote:and choose to accept atheistic opinions where the atheists are claiming that they are excluded from needing to have evidence yet accept it anyway? Yet when it comes to God they become a skeptic based on just an opinion?
Again; what are these “atheistic opinions” you keep speaking of? I’ve got a feeling the problem is you are having trouble understanding what an atheist, or even a skeptic actually is! This is something we need to clarify before we can go any further because otherwise we will just be talking past each other. Again; what are some of these atheistic opinions that you are convinced atheists hold?

Ken
Kenny there is no way you can say you go by evidence instead of faith after having admitted you have chosen atheism knowing there is no evidence or reasons to choose to accept atheism while ignoring the massive amount of evidence behind Christianity,but in this case even false religions bring more evidence to the table than you have or can. You see before I ever had these kinds of discussions with atheists I used to have these kind of discussions with people in other religions and had to confront their evidence,but with atheists/agnostics they have no evidence to confront,just arguments against God is all they've got,but this is not evidence to know atheism is a choice a person should make because of no evidence behind their opinion of atheism.I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or anything like that. I'm trying to get you to realize the games atheists play on people like you and after I have done it,you can accept it or reject it,but you will not be able to be intellectually honest with yourself after I am done and this is why you are getting uncomfortable about this discussion but whether you accept it or not you cannot refute it and you'll have to live knowing this.
Again; what are these “atheistic opinions” you keep speaking of? I’ve got a feeling the problem is you are having trouble understanding what an atheist, or even a skeptic actually is! This is something we need to clarify before we can go any further because otherwise we will just be talking past each other. Again; what are some of these atheistic opinions that you are convinced atheists hold?
It does not matter what an atheist or a skeptic really is. You are focusing on the wrong thing. You should be focusing on how atheists convince people to be an atheist,Skeptic,etc based on the idea that they are excluded from having to have any evidence based on the default position,so they exclude themselves from needing to have any evidence behind their atheistic opinions that leads them to reject god's. They have absolutely no evidence yet judge others evidence based on their atheistic opinion that has no evidence behind it.There is no reason based on evidence to choose to be an atheist compared to the evidence in Christianity,other false religions,science,etc. Atheists have nothing to bring to the table except their judgmental atheistic opinion.Nobody should choose atheism based on this.
Are you going to answer my question? Or are you going to continue to repeat the same misinformation over and over again?

Ken
abelcainsbrother wrote:Atheists have accepted an opinion that causes them to reject god's.
What do you mean when you say “reject god’s”? Reject their existence? Reject they are who worshippers claim they are? Or something else.
abelcainsbrother wrote:I call it an opinion based on knowing they have no evidence behind it.
Do you believe someone should have evidence against a claim in order to reject it? Ex If I told you I were a billionaire, and you had no way of proving I am not, should you be obligated to take my word for it without me providing evidence that supports my claim to your satisfaction?
abelcainsbrother wrote:How do you know you are not wrong to have accepted your atheist opinion and do you care if you have truth on your side without any evidence?
Atheist opinion? Again; what opinion do you think Atheists have? And what truths do you think Atheists claim to have on their sides?
abelcainsbrother wrote:But if I have misunderstood something then please explain how.
I don’t think it is a matter of misunderstanding something; I think it is a matter of having misinformation.

Ken
I already explained that nobody not even atheists gets a pass when it comes to evidence behind what you have accepted. Yet here you are excluding yourself,proving me right that there is no way to know atheism is the correct choice a person should make.Don't get confused by words. Atheists choose to reject god's and overlook or explain away evidence for God,while having no evidence themselves and only their opinion at best.Take some time to think about this.

Also Christians being fed to lions because they refused to reject Jesus and the fact he rose from the dead is even more evidence Christianity is true. People do not die for what they know are lies. I bet if you know you saw Jesus be crucified,seen him die and then seen him after he rose from the dead like he said he would before it happened and he told you to go preach the gospel and filled you with the Holy Spirit,no matter how afraid you may have been when they were crucifying him you would be willing to die even if nobody believed you. No government,ruler,etc could stop you from preaching Jesus rose from the dead,no matter if they threw you in jail and warned you and demanded that you stop doing it. You would tell them to go fly a kite!
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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