Can We Be Good Without God...

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kenny » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:51 pm

Philip wrote:
Ken: If nothing known to mankind had the shape of a triangle, there would be no such thing as a triangle;


False. It might be that a thing exists, that we would assign descriptive terms to, but that we are nonetheless unaware of its existence.

Going by this scenario, if we discovered a new object complete with a new shape, both completely unknown to mankind, we would probably call it Object “X” and we would describe it’s shape as “Triangle”. But we would not call object X a triangle, we wouldn’t claim this new object has the nature of triangularity, we would say it is object X and it has the nature of Object X, but the shape of a triangle.

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:53 am

people decided to name a different shape circle

Perhaps how we are defining nature is different. I see nature as the character of something; perhaps you see it differently.
When you say Triangularity as the nature of a triangle, are triangles the only thing in existence to have this nature? Do each shape have a different nature indistinguishable from anything else in existence? Various people, animals, and anything else seems to be able to have the same nature; is this different for shapes?

If I cut a square piece of wonder bread in half so it has the shape of a triangle, does it take on the nature of a triangle? Or does it have the nature of bread. Nobody will look at a tire, steering wheel, or ring and call it a circle, they will call it what it is and only use the term “circle” to describe them. I get what you are saying, it just doesn’t make sense to me.


Ken


You seem to be suggesting that what a thing is is NOT dependent on what it actually IS but what humans say it is or have decided it is.

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kenny » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:26 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
people decided to name a different shape circle

Perhaps how we are defining nature is different. I see nature as the character of something; perhaps you see it differently.
When you say Triangularity as the nature of a triangle, are triangles the only thing in existence to have this nature? Do each shape have a different nature indistinguishable from anything else in existence? Various people, animals, and anything else seems to be able to have the same nature; is this different for shapes?

If I cut a square piece of wonder bread in half so it has the shape of a triangle, does it take on the nature of a triangle? Or does it have the nature of bread. Nobody will look at a tire, steering wheel, or ring and call it a circle, they will call it what it is and only use the term “circle” to describe them. I get what you are saying, it just doesn’t make sense to me.


Ken


You seem to be suggesting that what a thing is is NOT dependent on what it actually IS but what humans say it is or have decided it is.

Not quite; I saying "shapes don't exist by themselves, things with shapes exist by themselves. The shapes are just one of many things used to describe the thing that is real. The shape of a tire doesn't have it's own nature independent of the tire.

Ken

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:50 pm

Not quite; I saying "shapes don't exist by themselves, things with shapes exist by themselves. The shapes are just one of many things used to describe the thing that is real. The shape of a tire doesn't have it's own nature independent of the tire.

Ken


So, if all of a sudden there were no more circles anywhere, then what a circle ( what makes a circle a circle) is would stop to exist??

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kenny » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:19 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Not quite; I saying "shapes don't exist by themselves, things with shapes exist by themselves. The shapes are just one of many things used to describe the thing that is real. The shape of a tire doesn't have it's own nature independent of the tire.

Ken


So, if all of a sudden there were no more circles anywhere, then what a circle ( what makes a circle a circle) is would stop to exist??

What makes a circle a circle is it's definition. Its definition would remain, but if no more of a specific shape no longer exist, it no longer exist!

Ken

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby B. W. » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:23 pm

Kenny wrote:
B. W. wrote:
Kenny wrote:
B. W. wrote:Ken God exists...

We would not know what is truly moral without a just God allowing liberty and sending forth something that declares what makes right and what makes wrong because people are lost trying to figure out the standards of right verse wrong in order to justify what they do.

So If I understand you correctly, you believe people are unable to decipher right from wrong, and need God to tell us what is right. Is that the position you take? If not, please explain further; if so perhaps you can answer this question for me; How do we know God is right, and the devil is wrong? What method do we employ to verify God's righteousness?

Ken


No, but rather God would be unjust for not telling us right from wrong and letting us learn that not to listen to him creates great wrongs.

That's the point...

Think about it...
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So are you saying mankind IS able to judge right from wrong?

Ken


And we are not doing a great job of it either, are we?

How many laws do we have in the USA?

Currently now over 20,000 just on gun ownership and that...

How many laws does the IRS have? Take a guess? How many in the criminal code federal, state, and local?

How is it working?

Answer, it isn't.

The first four of only 10 commandments I mentioned in prior post deal with: Acknowledging God is, know him, the reality that he is. Next, have no idols as what you idolize turns on you and great harm is done. Do not treat with contempt God's character traits vainly. Take a day off of work and rest, honoring your creator...

Those are the ones you, Ken, have issue with.

The other 6 one can write and add their own laws too to justify breaking them...
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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:33 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Not quite; I saying "shapes don't exist by themselves, things with shapes exist by themselves. The shapes are just one of many things used to describe the thing that is real. The shape of a tire doesn't have it's own nature independent of the tire.

Ken


So, if all of a sudden there were no more circles anywhere, then what a circle ( what makes a circle a circle) is would stop to exist??

What makes a circle a circle is it's definition. Its definition would remain, but if no more of a specific shape no longer exist, it no longer exist!

Ken


What doesn't exist ken? the "definition" like you said or the object?

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kenny » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:43 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Not quite; I saying "shapes don't exist by themselves, things with shapes exist by themselves. The shapes are just one of many things used to describe the thing that is real. The shape of a tire doesn't have it's own nature independent of the tire.

Ken


So, if all of a sudden there were no more circles anywhere, then what a circle ( what makes a circle a circle) is would stop to exist??

What makes a circle a circle is it's definition. Its definition would remain, but if no more of a specific shape no longer exist, it no longer exist!

Ken


What doesn't exist ken? the "definition" like you said or the object?

The object is the only thing that has an actual existence by itself; the definition/description of that object does not

Ken

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:44 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Not quite; I saying "shapes don't exist by themselves, things with shapes exist by themselves. The shapes are just one of many things used to describe the thing that is real. The shape of a tire doesn't have it's own nature independent of the tire.

Ken


So, if all of a sudden there were no more circles anywhere, then what a circle ( what makes a circle a circle) is would stop to exist??

What makes a circle a circle is it's definition. Its definition would remain, but if no more of a specific shape no longer exist, it no longer exist!

Ken


What doesn't exist ken? the "definition" like you said or the object?

The object is the only thing that has an actual existence by itself; the definition/description of that object does not

Ken



So the definition is dependent on the object actually existing ?

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kenny » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:45 am

B. W. wrote:
Kenny wrote:
B. W. wrote:
Kenny wrote:
B. W. wrote:Ken God exists...

We would not know what is truly moral without a just God allowing liberty and sending forth something that declares what makes right and what makes wrong because people are lost trying to figure out the standards of right verse wrong in order to justify what they do.

So If I understand you correctly, you believe people are unable to decipher right from wrong, and need God to tell us what is right. Is that the position you take? If not, please explain further; if so perhaps you can answer this question for me; How do we know God is right, and the devil is wrong? What method do we employ to verify God's righteousness?

Ken


No, but rather God would be unjust for not telling us right from wrong and letting us learn that not to listen to him creates great wrongs.

That's the point...

Think about it...
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So are you saying mankind IS able to judge right from wrong?

Ken


And we are not doing a great job of it either, are we?

How many laws do we have in the USA?

Currently now over 20,000 just on gun ownership and that...

How many laws does the IRS have? Take a guess? How many in the criminal code federal, state, and local?

How is it working?

Answer, it isn't.

The first four of only 10 commandments I mentioned in prior post deal with: Acknowledging God is, know him, the reality that he is. Next, have no idols as what you idolize turns on you and great harm is done. Do not treat with contempt God's character traits vainly. Take a day off of work and rest, honoring your creator...

Those are the ones you, Ken, have issue with.

The other 6 one can write and add their own laws too to justify breaking them...
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Aside from whether you (BW) judge him of doing a good job or not, do you agree mankind is capable of judging right from wrong

Ken

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby RickD » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:13 am

Kenny wrote:
B. W. wrote:
Kenny wrote:
B. W. wrote:
Kenny wrote:So If I understand you correctly, you believe people are unable to decipher right from wrong, and need God to tell us what is right. Is that the position you take? If not, please explain further; if so perhaps you can answer this question for me; How do we know God is right, and the devil is wrong? What method do we employ to verify God's righteousness?

Ken


No, but rather God would be unjust for not telling us right from wrong and letting us learn that not to listen to him creates great wrongs.

That's the point...

Think about it...
-
-
-


So are you saying mankind IS able to judge right from wrong?

Ken


And we are not doing a great job of it either, are we?

How many laws do we have in the USA?

Currently now over 20,000 just on gun ownership and that...

How many laws does the IRS have? Take a guess? How many in the criminal code federal, state, and local?

How is it working?

Answer, it isn't.

The first four of only 10 commandments I mentioned in prior post deal with: Acknowledging God is, know him, the reality that he is. Next, have no idols as what you idolize turns on you and great harm is done. Do not treat with contempt God's character traits vainly. Take a day off of work and rest, honoring your creator...

Those are the ones you, Ken, have issue with.

The other 6 one can write and add their own laws too to justify breaking them...
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Aside from whether you (BW) judge him of doing a good job or not, do you agree mankind is capable of judging right from wrong

Ken

Of course Kenny. We do it every day.
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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby B. W. » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:14 pm

Kenny wrote:....Aside from whether you (BW) judge him of doing a good job or not, do you agree mankind is capable of judging right from wrong

Ken


Rick answered for me...

We do it every day and I added in my post you responded to this: the world is a mess because of it.

No matter what laws and morals a person designs based on those laws can that person keep honestly every day. You, for example, will twist them to bend to your needs. By the law no flesh is right in God's sight.

The only way things can be made known and defined as what is truly right and truly wrong if an all-powerful fair minded objective law giver (God) defines what is right and wrong to folk’s hell bent of twisting their own codes of conduct to adapt and justify their breaking the law based on their subjective morality. Just look at Bill and Hilary Clinton, Obama, and the leftist in this country and you will see what I mean.

In Exodus 20:1-2, you need God to define what right is and what wrong is. Why, because we cannot make up our minds on what is right or wrong. We change and lower the bar to suit our whims. You have stolen things haven't you? Ever coveted a member of the opposite sex in your lustful heart or acted upon it? How did you justify that as not being wrong? Does your concept of right and wrong control you to change the knowledge of good into evil and evil into good?

You need the divine law giver to define what is evil and what is good because we humans mess that up. God is just and certainly ‘gave’ us the law to reveal that we cannot keep it because we keep changing it to serve and justify thefts, coveting, forsaking others, rejecting them, etc. Isn't that what you do Ken?

In the 10 laws God revealed in that chapter, God's purpose was to reveal that by only by listening to Him is the only means one can abide without having dysfunction taking over life on this planet. In other words, true right begins by acknowledging He is God. In this, we need to listen to him in all areas of our lives in order to avoid dysfunction in this life from ruling and ruining everything.

This takes faith. In other words, Faith in God's grace that he does speak as he sent his word to us to deal with human dysfunctions once and for all. God made it simple: faith in his grace that he will direct our steps and teach us how to do what is truly right, good, etc.

If one does not acknowledge God, that he is and rewarder of those who listen to him. The they will be lost in a sea of laws that can never solve that human custom of turning what is functionally good into something dysfunctional.

Life and this whole world is a mess (darkness). All our laws we make based on moral whims of the moment cannot save us from the destruction of others who desire to push their moral laws on us. ISIS and the tenant of Islam is world domination enforced by cruelty is an example of this.

God shines light, that he is our deliverer. He offers a simple choice to either accept him or reject him completely. That's all Christianity offers. true bible based Christianity cannot force anything on any one. It offers a free choice to a person where they can decide freely to continue living in complete dysfunction or find the liberty from that dysfunction which freedom only Christ Jesus brings. Why, we learn to hear and listen to the ways he speaks to humanity!

Finding that freedom means we can actually say no to producing so much dysfunction. We learn to reason with the Lord and are purified and made whole. Now, I cannot help people's maturity levels in Christ because one starts as a new born and grows from there learning by faith to hearken to the Lord one step and growth spurt at a time. So do not judge all Christians by infantile behavior of someones growing pain. But you do - do make such judgments do you not?

We learn that is better to listen to the Lord defining what is right and wrong rather than ourselves. God in his intelligence gave us, even a written book, to help us with life's school work and learn new creation life skills from to live in a mean dark world so hell bent to not to listen to God or believe in him.

You, Ken, think you can be your own arbiter of morals and yet deny the moral monster you become so as justify coveting, theft, justify living by hubris. By denying God, you are claiming you are you own God and have no need, only yourself as you are a god to yourself and those around you. When you die in that sort of state, well, God has no need of you corrupting heaven with that sort of attitude as it would not be fair to the rest of us there to have you turn heaven into a mess. Just think about this for a moment.

Exodus 20:2, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." NKJV

God is calling out for you to return to him so you can actually listen and hear from him yourself so you will stop putting your own words in God's mouth to justify you have no need. The gospel has been presented to you many times here. Simple prayer starts the new birth so you can hear for yourself the one sent to rescue you.
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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kenny » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:19 pm

Kenny wrote:....Aside from whether you (BW) judge him of doing a good job or not, do you agree mankind is capable of judging right from wrong

Ken


B. W. wrote: Rick answered for me...

We do it every day and I added in my post you responded to this: the world is a mess because of it.


That seems to contradict what you said earlier when you said:

We would not know what is truly moral without a just God allowing liberty and sending forth something that declares what makes right and what makes wrong because people are lost trying to figure out the standards of right verse wrong in order to justify what they do.

Now not only do you seem to be saying mankind is capable of judging right from wrong, but that we do it everyday!
 
B. W. wrote: No matter what laws and morals a person designs based on those laws can that person keep honestly every day. You, for example, will twist them to bend to your needs. By the law no flesh is right in God's sight.

The only way things can be made known and defined as what is truly right and truly wrong if an all-powerful fair minded objective law giver (God) defines what is right and wrong to folk’s hell bent of twisting their own codes of conduct to adapt and justify their breaking the law based on their subjective morality. Just look at Bill and Hilary Clinton, Obama, and the leftist in this country and you will see what I mean.

Where we disagree, you believe your God’s morality is superior to all others, I believe my morality is superior to all others. Guess we can agree to disagree on that one

B. W. wrote: In Exodus 20:1-2, you need God to define what right is and what wrong is. Why, because we cannot make up our minds on what is right or wrong.


Because God doesn’t speak through the clouds, you guys can’t agree on what God says is right or wrong either, everybody interprets the Bible differently. You guys ain’t got it any better than I
B. W. wrote: We change and lower the bar to suit our whims. You have stolen things haven't you? Ever coveted a member of the opposite sex in your lustful heart or acted upon it? How did you justify that as not being wrong? Does your concept of right and wrong control you to change the knowledge of good into evil and evil into good?
Tell you what; I will put my morals and my ethics up against anybody’s; yours included!

B. W. wrote: You need the divine law giver to define what is evil and what is good because we humans mess that up. God is just and certainly ‘gave’ us the law to reveal that we cannot keep it because we keep changing it to serve and justify thefts, coveting, forsaking others, rejecting them, etc. Isn't that what you do Ken?

The moral code accepted by the men who wrote the scriptures is NOT the moral code that we hold now. And I believe we are better for it.
When I look at some of the moral issues presented in the Bible (especially the Old Testament) and I compare them to my own, I choose my own.

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kurieuo » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:43 pm

Kenny wrote:The moral code accepted by the men who wrote the scriptures is NOT the moral code that we hold now. And I believe we are better for it.
When I look at some of the moral issues presented in the Bible (especially the Old Testament) and I compare them to my own, I choose my own.

The Laws of the OT were evidently Israel's. With it, are dietary laws, laws of living, as well as moral conduct. Laws of conduct that many would still agree with as being good. In addition, associated with such laws are penalties for breaking such laws, for Israel were to set themselves apart from other nations to God. Furthermore, I'd add that such were relative to the covenant they made with God at their particular time.

If you allow God to speak through the Scriptures, accept the story as a whole or as Christianity accepts it... The end goal is clearly seen as culminating in the NT via Christ, which is also a collection of writings left by Jewish followers of their Rabbi Jesus. Notwithstanding there are also prophecies in the OT of a new time and covenant God would make with his people, one that is of heart. (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 10:16-18)

Reflecting, it is then seen, theologically, that Israel had a very important purpose in God's plan. It was important that they keep themselves pure, even if they failed to meet God's standard over and over again. God's plan as seen, and stated by Paul in Ephesians 1:4 and also in 1 Peter 1:20 was always to redeem humanity via Christ. Such that the righteous condemnation and death we deserve from God, could be replaced with forgiveness, grace and life with God.

The Mosaic Covenant, was never to be one blanket to cover all. It was for Israel, according to God's purpose. That is what you get if you read Scripture together, rather than break it up into bits and pieces devoid on any theological context as Christians and even Jewish people believe. Many Jews, even to this day do not care about really proselyting, perhaps because so-far-as they're concerned God still belongs to them.
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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby B. W. » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:46 am

Kenny wrote:That seems to contradict what you said earlier when you said:

We would not know what is truly moral without a just God allowing liberty and sending forth something that declares what makes right and what makes wrong because people are lost trying to figure out the standards of right verse wrong in order to justify what they do.

Now not only do you seem to be saying mankind is capable of judging right from wrong, but that we do it everyday!


No contradiction at all, merely stating the obvious, we manipulate right and wrong to suite our own ends and thus in need of intervention from our common creator to set the tone of good, evil, right, wrong. Your words below proved my point:
Kenny wrote:Where we disagree, you believe your God’s morality is superior to all others, I believe my morality is superior to all others. Guess we can agree to disagree on that one


Hubris, Kenny, your morality is based upon pure hubris and thus your answers substantiates my point very well so, Thank You!

Kenny wrote:
B. W. wrote: In Exodus 20:1-2, you need God to define what right is and what wrong is. Why, because we cannot make up our minds on what is right or wrong.


Because God doesn’t speak through the clouds, you guys can’t agree on what God says is right or wrong either, everybody interprets the Bible differently. You guys ain’t got it any better than I


Kenny, your every evolving morality cannot agree with each of your own tenets either and add to this: no two people can or could ever agree that your morality is superior either. What about others who do not agree with you?

Look, Ken, cannot you see that your moral superiority has holes in it and as part of the human race, that you err, and make mistakes.

Thus -- you have no bases for judging Christians like you just did in your statement just as all subjectivist are guilty of the same thing you accuse Christians of, you all do the same.

However, we Christians have God's words within his book and with such a book it contains God's words that cuts to the heart exposing what is in the heart - human hubris - so folks can turn away from it and find truth and be freed. You cannot at this time until you voluntarily receive the gift of Christ into your heart.

Lastly, you falsely assume Christians think themselves morally superior. We do not as the word of God exposes such pride in the heart as the problem folks have brings ruin, death, theft, hate into the world. We also know that - to each his own - is just. We know God reasons with people and does not force submission. We know he will judge and all we can do is present the gospel to you and all folks to begin the reasoning process. The rest is up to you and for that we are condemned by you and others for forcing our views upon and forced to shut up and be like the rest of the world

That is you point is this: we Christians are just like the world - so shut up!

You do not really know us because you base judgment on a small sample of inmature Christians and those posing as Christian who are not. You need to be honest and become born again and find out that we are not like the world but rather learning to how too objectively become more of the following - love (agape), joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, exercise self-control without hubirs ruining these.

True Bible based Christianity moves folks to discover what these words means and be changed by they by God's hands working within us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

Are you against these?

You try to ascribe to these principles too, yet, your morality fails you every time as you words to us expose the intent of your heart and the disdain you justify. Bold statement too is this: other religions cannot achieve these either. They may come close by hard works, but these allude...the strongest of efforts.

B.W. wrote:We (as human beings) change and lower the bar to suit our whims. You have stolen things haven't you? Ever coveted a member of the opposite sex in your lustful heart or acted upon it? How did you justify that as not being wrong? Does your concept of right and wrong control you to change the knowledge of good into evil and evil into good?

Kenny wrote:Tell you what; I will put my morals and my ethics up against anybody’s; yours included!...


Then you will fail as there is none righteous no not one, not even you. For us who know Christ, as well as for myself who was actually raised from the dead by God's grace alone 1980, simply know what it means to forgiven. Such forgiveness changes a person's direction in life. None are right in God's eyes as we twist things to justify our moral failings.

However, those who are born again, and know Him, we are changed out of such darkness because it is God who changes us inside out as we discover we cannot change ourselves no matter how hard we work at it. We discover God and himself working with us, changing us, correcting us, guiding us, helping us and all free too as he works within us and we go along for the ride. This ride I world not give up on know matter if you killed me or tortured me Kenny.

As Christians, we do become equipped to know and understand the objectivity of the following: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, and live accordingly while learning these words objective true meanings, all freely and find liberty - true liberty.

Ken you have no love in your heart toward us as your own words written on this thread prove. You are making yourself -god. People just like you put Jesus, the true God, on trial, mocked him, demanded he act accord to your whims, you bore false witnesses against him as did us all to prove we are god exercising god like moral superiority. How we treat others proves this as well.

All things done to Jesus, the betrayal, abandonment, rejection, the beatings, trials, mocking, lies told, selling out, placing too heavy burden on one they cannot bear. The putting people on trial in one’s mind and justifying the moral reasons for doing these sorts of things prove you are not morally superior nor godlike either.

Your statement below is telling:

Kenny wrote:...The moral code accepted by the men who wrote the scriptures is NOT the moral code that we hold now. And I believe we are better for it. When I look at some of the moral issues presented in the Bible (especially the Old Testament) and I compare them to my own, I choose my own. Ken


This shows you are incapable of understanding truth or exploring truth and thus incapable of reasoning thru things honestly at this current time. You do not consider the ancient times and how brutal cultures were at that time and era. You know nothing of Moloch and burning babies alive, nor of the bestiality practiced in fertility cults which spread disease and corrupted the gene pool. You know nothing of history but your own idea based upon looking at the OT through your own presuppositions.

You know nothing why Jesus came and did away with the OT laws or why. You currently show no intellectually honesty in investigating things other than to support your premises.

I and others here posting to you used to do the same things but we discovered we need forgiveness and release from hubris we owned as our own and recognized it was killing us.

As stated before:

...You need the divine law giver to define what is evil and what is good because we humans mess that up. God is just and certainly ‘gave’ us the law to reveal that we cannot keep it because we keep changing it to serve and justify thefts, coveting, forsaking others, rejecting them, etc. Isn't that what you do Ken?

We all need forgiveness and change of heart. In the and for that reason Jesus came and proved how people desire to treat God and offered forgiveness and restoration as he mentioned in John 3:16.

If the world simply lived by the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control that God gives and teaches. Why would that be a bad evil world?

You, Ken, will answer that you can achieve those same ends. However, your hubris shows and will prove you wrong every time. You have no love toward me of Christ Jesus, you show no kindness or respect either, only disdain as evidenced by your many words on this very forum show that you have no moral superiority to speak of.

Question: Are not these words love (agape), joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control objectively defined?
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys


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