Can We Be Good Without God...

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kurieuo » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:38 pm

The question CS Lewis was actually answering was: "Can we be good without Christianity?" Many Christians might ask this, even indeed, many Christians today think it is the Christian Gospel that we strive to be good and simply love each other, that, being Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Buddhist and the like -- such ultimately doesn't matter.

Don't recommend just responding to the question, but first watching the video, which contains CS Lewis' words put into a nice little YouTube video. The question is really just a launching pad for a fuller exploration of thought.

Kenny, also made me think of you, given the many discussions always had about "being good" in life, your core value belief that everyone should abide by a law of love, if you will.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9fR1vSxNEQ
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Nessa » Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:26 pm

You might just pull a 'kenny" out of a hat with this thread. y:-?

Hopefully he'll respond.

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:57 am

It's kind of a trick question.
The answer is Yes since we have evidence of people being good and not believing in God BUt that is NOT really the question.
The question is can we be good WITHOUT God, not without BELIEVINg in God but without God.
The answer is no because God is the SOURCE of what is good, whether one believes in Him or not.

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kenny » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:46 pm

Kurieuo wrote:The question CS Lewis was actually answering was: "Can we be good without Christianity?" Many Christians might ask this, even indeed, many Christians today think it is the Christian Gospel that we strive to be good and simply love each other, that, being Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Buddhist and the like -- such ultimately doesn't matter.

Don't recommend just responding to the question, but first watching the video, which contains CS Lewis' words put into a nice little YouTube video. The question is really just a launching pad for a fuller exploration of thought.

Kenny, also made me think of you, given the many discussions always had about "being good" in life, your core value belief that everyone should abide by a law of love, if you will.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9fR1vSxNEQ


I found the Video interesting. Some things I agreed with, some things I didn’t.
Below is my responses to the Minute mark section of the video I disagreed with. (0:00-1:25 is from the beginning of the Video through the 1 minute 25 second spot of the video)


0:00-1:25
If a person asks if it’s possible to be good if he doesn’t believe in Christianity, I don’t think it is fair to assume the person asking has no interest in the truth, The truth is another conversation; his question is about morality.

Also, the type of person to ask such a question will probably already be Christian; I can’t imagine someone of another religion, or even an atheist asking such a question, these people would be making the argument that Christianity is not necessary to live a good life. Yet the narrator tells his story from the position the question is asked by a non-Christian

1:55-2:13
Weather a story is true or not is not always important; stories of fiction can be just as helpful as stories of actual events.

2:20-2:34 mark
If a person believes Christianity is true, yet he notices Christians have not cornered the market on being good, seems to me he must conclude either Christianity is not true, or knowing the truth does not have an effect on leading a good life.

5:05-5:27
I think this only applies to Christianity, because Christianity comes with a bunch of rules; materialism does not. Of what we know about the Universe, if Christianity is wrong, they will not be causing his fellow man their destruction.

Anyway, some of the video I agreed with, some I disagreed. The above listed was where I disagreed.

Ken
PS Good video; had to come out of the hat for that one! (LOL)

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:06 am

If a person believes Christianity is true, yet he notices Christians have not cornered the market on being good, seems to me he must conclude either Christianity is not true, or knowing the truth does not have an effect on leading a good life.


If person believes that Christianity is true then they would EXPECT to notice that not all Christians ( Or Christianity) has the market on being good.
One of the central tenets of Christianity is that NO ONE is good and ALL need redemption and only God can redeem us.
Someone that believes in Christianity, that KNOWS it, will not be surprised if Christians act bad NOR would they expect that ONLy Christians can be good.

Your argument is a typical non-believer argument that creates an issue ( A believer believing that only Christian can be good) where there is None ( Believers KNOW that being a Christian doesn't make you good and that being good is possible for all, believers and non-believers alike).

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kenny » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:09 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
If a person believes Christianity is true, yet he notices Christians have not cornered the market on being good, seems to me he must conclude either Christianity is not true, or knowing the truth does not have an effect on leading a good life.


If person believes that Christianity is true then they would EXPECT to notice that not all Christians ( Or Christianity) has the market on being good.
One of the central tenets of Christianity is that NO ONE is good and ALL need redemption and only God can redeem us.
Someone that believes in Christianity, that KNOWS it, will not be surprised if Christians act bad NOR would they expect that ONLy Christians can be good.

Your argument is a typical non-believer argument that creates an issue ( A believer believing that only Christian can be good) where there is None ( Believers KNOW that being a Christian doesn't make you good and that being good is possible for all, believers and non-believers alike).


I was just responding to what the man in the video said. Apparently his views on christianity are different than yours. Listen to the 2:20 - 2:35 section of the video and you will see what he said contridictions what you just said.

Ken

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby B. W. » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:17 am

Kenny wrote:...5:05-5:27 I think this only applies to Christianity, because Christianity comes with a bunch of rules; materialism does not. Of what we know about the Universe, if Christianity is wrong, they will not be causing his fellow man their destruction.



So Materialism does not have a bunch of laws, then what about laws of dialectics and the laws of historic materialism?

Well, materialism creates more laws than any other system out there. Law of political correct thinking... is one example... and the law of conquest and conflict... which by the way has killed more people than all wars of religion combined since the dawn of time.

Here is what Jesus said concerning Law: "Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law..." Matthew 22:37-40. NKJV

How simple... yet how difficult !
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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kenny » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:41 am

B. W. wrote:
Kenny wrote:...5:05-5:27 I think this only applies to Christianity, because Christianity comes with a bunch of rules; materialism does not. Of what we know about the Universe, if Christianity is wrong, they will not be causing his fellow man their destruction.



So Materialism does not have a bunch of laws, then what about laws of dialectics and the laws of historic materialism?

Well, materialism creates more laws than any other system out there. Law of political correct thinking... is one example... and the law of conquest and conflict... which by the way has killed more people than all wars of religion combined since the dawn of time.

Here is what Jesus said concerning Law: "Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law..." Matthew 22:37-40. NKJV

How simple... yet how difficult !
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Political Correctness has nothing to do with materalism. As far as those other laws you mentioned, never heard of them. But whatever they are, if there is any truth to those laws, I doubt Christians will be destroyed or even harmed if they neglect to follow them. That is the point I was making.

Ken

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby B. W. » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:52 am

Kenny wrote:
B. W. wrote:
Kenny wrote:...5:05-5:27 I think this only applies to Christianity, because Christianity comes with a bunch of rules; materialism does not. Of what we know about the Universe, if Christianity is wrong, they will not be causing his fellow man their destruction.



So Materialism does not have a bunch of laws, then what about laws of dialectics and the laws of historic materialism?

Well, materialism creates more laws than any other system out there. Law of political correct thinking... is one example... and the law of conquest and conflict... which by the way has killed more people than all wars of religion combined since the dawn of time.

Here is what Jesus said concerning Law: "Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law..." Matthew 22:37-40. NKJV

How simple... yet how difficult !
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Political Correctness has nothing to do with materalism. As far as those other laws you mentioned, never heard of them. But whatever they are, if there is any truth to those laws, I doubt Christians will be destroyed or even harmed if they neglect to follow them. That is the point I was making.

Ken


Ken suggest you look up the Laws of materialism online and you will discover what is involved in the historical and dialectics laws of materialism.

Have a nice day...
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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kenny » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:21 am

B. W. wrote:
Kenny wrote:
B. W. wrote:
Kenny wrote:...5:05-5:27 I think this only applies to Christianity, because Christianity comes with a bunch of rules; materialism does not. Of what we know about the Universe, if Christianity is wrong, they will not be causing his fellow man their destruction.



So Materialism does not have a bunch of laws, then what about laws of dialectics and the laws of historic materialism?

Well, materialism creates more laws than any other system out there. Law of political correct thinking... is one example... and the law of conquest and conflict... which by the way has killed more people than all wars of religion combined since the dawn of time.

Here is what Jesus said concerning Law: "Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law..." Matthew 22:37-40. NKJV

How simple... yet how difficult !
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Political Correctness has nothing to do with materalism. As far as those other laws you mentioned, never heard of them. But whatever they are, if there is any truth to those laws, I doubt Christians will be destroyed or even harmed if they neglect to follow them. That is the point I was making.

Ken


Ken suggest you look up the Laws of materialism online and you will discover what is involved in the historical and dialectics laws of materialism.

Have a nice day...
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How 'bout if you define the laws, then explain how someone would be destroyed if they choose not to follow them.

Ken

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby PaulSacramento » Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:00 am

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
If a person believes Christianity is true, yet he notices Christians have not cornered the market on being good, seems to me he must conclude either Christianity is not true, or knowing the truth does not have an effect on leading a good life.


If person believes that Christianity is true then they would EXPECT to notice that not all Christians ( Or Christianity) has the market on being good.
One of the central tenets of Christianity is that NO ONE is good and ALL need redemption and only God can redeem us.
Someone that believes in Christianity, that KNOWS it, will not be surprised if Christians act bad NOR would they expect that ONLy Christians can be good.

Your argument is a typical non-believer argument that creates an issue ( A believer believing that only Christian can be good) where there is None ( Believers KNOW that being a Christian doesn't make you good and that being good is possible for all, believers and non-believers alike).


I was just responding to what the man in the video said. Apparently his views on christianity are different than yours. Listen to the 2:20 - 2:35 section of the video and you will see what he said contridictions what you just said.

Ken


I think you need to see the video again, you are only getting PART of what he is stating.
As he continues he states EQUALLY equipped and clarifies that by the base from which a believer and non-believer go about doing good ( He states a christian and a non-christian both wish to do good for their fellow man) and how the believer believes about eternal life, be one with God and so forth as his basis for doing good ( doing good because we are not fully human if we don't basically), while the non-believer does good in a more "self-centered" and 'self-gratification" way. Keep watching and he address this difference afterwards.

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby PaulSacramento » Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:01 am

The issue with materialism is not the danger in NOT following it's "rules".
The danger IS in FOLLOWINg them.

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kenny » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:40 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
If a person believes Christianity is true, yet he notices Christians have not cornered the market on being good, seems to me he must conclude either Christianity is not true, or knowing the truth does not have an effect on leading a good life.


If person believes that Christianity is true then they would EXPECT to notice that not all Christians ( Or Christianity) has the market on being good.
One of the central tenets of Christianity is that NO ONE is good and ALL need redemption and only God can redeem us.
Someone that believes in Christianity, that KNOWS it, will not be surprised if Christians act bad NOR would they expect that ONLy Christians can be good.

Your argument is a typical non-believer argument that creates an issue ( A believer believing that only Christian can be good) where there is None ( Believers KNOW that being a Christian doesn't make you good and that being good is possible for all, believers and non-believers alike).


I was just responding to what the man in the video said. Apparently his views on christianity are different than yours. Listen to the 2:20 - 2:35 section of the video and you will see what he said contridictions what you just said.

Ken


I think you need to see the video again, you are only getting PART of what he is stating.
As he continues he states EQUALLY equipped and clarifies that by the base from which a believer and non-believer go about doing good ( He states a christian and a non-christian both wish to do good for their fellow man) and how the believer believes about eternal life, be one with God and so forth as his basis for doing good ( doing good because we are not fully human if we don't basically), while the non-believer does good in a more "self-centered" and 'self-gratification" way. Keep watching and he address this difference afterwards.


In the 2:20-2:34 section of the video, he was very specific when he said

If Christianity is true, then it is impossible for those who know this truth and those who do not, would be equally equipped for living a good life; knowledge of the facts must make a difference in ones actions.

This is what I disagreed with. Now if later on in the video, he makes the point that the Christian’s good actions are superior to the materialist's good actions because the Christian’s good actions are aimed at pleasing his God, though I disagree with that statement as well, I wouldn’t find it surprising a Christian would take that position.

Ken

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby Kenny » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:41 am

PaulSacramento wrote:The issue with materialism is not the danger in NOT following it's "rules".
The danger IS in FOLLOWINg them.

Though I disagree with this also, that is not the point he made.

Ken

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Re: Can We Be Good Without God...

Postby B. W. » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:38 am

Kenny wrote:...How 'bout if you define the laws, then explain how someone would be destroyed if they choose not to follow them.

Ken


The laws of historic materialism and dialectics are too many to list. Suggest you research these...

Dialectical materialism is both Marxist and Hegelian and used by the modern progressive left. It is a method of studying and apprehending phenomena of nature and using that to buttress political materialist/Marxist/Progressive theory on governing by conflict. Laws of nature is one of struggle. Lower classes struggle to take from those that have. Laws come into to play to ensure this by means of dialectics.

Dialectics is the process discourse between two or more parties holding different points of view about a subject. You begin with a thesis, invoking an antithesis, creating conflict between the two be resolved by means of a Compromise. So by compromise you weaken the stronger party and win it over. Basically is it how an truly insane person think in order to justify insanity.

This method is not debate, it is the means to skirt around debate by force of compromise.

Historical materialism is based upon the principles of dialectical materialism. However, it concerns applying its principles of dialectical materialism to the study of life of nations history, society, culture, government, laws of a social order.

Both are used in science, law, juridical courts system and government to enact laws to reach the goals of socialist agenda of One World Government. It makes crisis and uses crisis for that goal so that people surrender their will by means of compromise. The laws of Global warming and the compromise solutions are examples of such laws. No debate on that topic is allowed nor is allowed the evidence that refutes Global Warming.

In others words, there is a dialectical narrative that guides and perverts truth and will not allow truth to be told to establish the truth of a matter guided by any form of reasoned arguments.

the narrative is simple: Create from the material seen a theses for change, provoke a response the antithesis from opponents, uses opponents words against themselves to force compromise. By slow compromise you force change to the Marxist/Progressive/Social materialist based dialectic agenda-thesis. Truth, facts, do no matter and any debate to establish truth must be squelched.

That is the simplest definition I can think of. It is better that you research these things on your own.

Political Correct thinking and use of ridicule to enforce its goals is an example of such materialist laws in play in order to create conflict in human nature to submit to the goal/narrative/ agenda of the left.

Laws of nature is based on conflict and survival, thus, the materialist world is one of conflict unless all submit to socialist thought. Yet, even the socialist idea must collapse on itself if all material world is based on conflict. In other words, socialism must overthrow itself to prove their thesis correct.

As human beings, we live in a mortal and material world. However, we are not material. We are reasoning beings how seek dominion, purpose, significance in our lives. Following materialism creates a tension for ones do-gooding because one derives a sense of dominion, purpose, significance in doing good to feel materialistic good. However, when one dies, all do-good deeds are actually worthless and have no values at all, even for the moment one does them based on materialism. Materialism offers no hope, its faith is in nothing but self, and love based on what one derives from loving.

CS Lewis points that out in his works which I can summarize his points against materialist/modernist mindsets as this:

To materialist it is all about the Big ME and no one else as the Great I determines right and wrong. Then I die and I am forgotten but die smugly fooling the Great Myself that I was able to do some good that made ME feel really good. I know better than to think their is a God at all because God or gods will not prove self by bending to my demands of will.

True biblical Christianity aspect of doing good is to be an extension of God's hands and feet midst a world full of ungrateful Great I and Me's who want nothing of God's goodness shown them: reconciliation, salvation, the Isiah 61:1-4 way, purpose ad true value restored.

What is good?

Can goodness be defined by subjectivism?

Or is Good defined by objectivism?

In materialism, there is only the subjective ways to define goodness. Objective truth cannot define goodness.

However there is objective good or else it cannot be defined as good at all.

The ancient Hebrew concept of Goodness is based upon was is not dysfunctional.

Goodness of the subjective materialist has to be based upon what is dysfunctional as it seeks to justify human dysfunction as good.

Think about and read more of CS Lewis's works, Ken.
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