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Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 8:03 am
by Audie
PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
The god that sent a world wide flood does not exist either, for simple reason that that flood never occurred
I can't tell you how many skeptics have the same faulty equations skills.
It's not a slight on you Audie, it's simply a fact that many skeptics THINK they know the bible and quite simply don't.
To be honest, MANY believers have the same problem.

Faulty equation skills. Right.

Does the Paul Sacramento who was president of the USA for six consecutive terms exist?

As for "knowing the bible", I know it a whole lot better than a great many, possibly most Christians. But you agree many "believers" dont know squat about their own book.

There are btw some 38000 sects all of whom understand the bible differently / better than the others. Not to mention some few eccentric individuals and their take.

Audie, according to you:
The god that sent a world wide flood does not exist either, for simple reason that that flood never occurred
That means you equate the the world wide flood never happening to God not existing.
The problem with that is the bible does NOT say it was a world wide flood ( though some INTERPRET that way).
You are taking ONE possible interpretation of an "equation" and saying that because it is not correct, math doesn't exist.

Do you see what you are doing wrong there?

I am not doing anything 'wrong". Possibly you are.

Do you agree that there was no god who sent a world wide flood?

Do you think your reading that it doesnt mean world wide is inerrant?

The story makes no sense as a local flood, and even less as world wide.

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 8:46 am
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote:
When you say "based on what we know of the Universe" this "we" you speak of are your fellow Christians; not the scientist who spend their lives studying the Universe; most of whom just so happen to be atheist right?
I mean based on what those "mostly atheist" scientists state.

So let me see if I’ve got this straight;

A) Evidence from the Universe points to God
B) Christians; most who know little about the Universe believe in God
C) Scientists who know a lot about the Universe mostly reject God.

It seems to me A is in direct contradiction to B & C. Where am I going wrong here?

Ken

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 9:32 am
by PaulSacramento
I am not doing anything 'wrong". Possibly you are.
Alright then.

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 9:34 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
When you say "based on what we know of the Universe" this "we" you speak of are your fellow Christians; not the scientist who spend their lives studying the Universe; most of whom just so happen to be atheist right?
I mean based on what those "mostly atheist" scientists state.

So let me see if I’ve got this straight;

A) Evidence from the Universe points to God
B) Christians; most who know little about the Universe believe in God
C) Scientists who know a lot about the Universe mostly reject God.

It seems to me A is in direct contradiction to B & C. Where am I going wrong here?

Ken
Where are you going wrong?
Well, everywhere.

This is what you SHOULD have wrote IF you understood what I have been writing:

A) Evidence from the Universe points to a first cause/unmoved mover ( that which brings things that come into existence, into existence)
B) Christians believe this to be God
C) Scientists who know a lot about the Universe are NOT specialists in theology and as such, don't comment on the existence of God.


Understood?

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 10:05 am
by Philip
Audie: if there is a god, it sure isnt the OT / NT one.
Why NOT? In the first place, if there is a God, you don't get to pick and choose what He is like, or that YOU think He should be like. But what Scriptural aspects of the Christian God do you believe negate Him as a possible candidate for God?

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 10:38 am
by Audie
Philip wrote:
Audie: if there is a god, it sure isnt the OT / NT one.
Why NOT? In the first place, if there is a God, you don't get to pick and choose what He is like, or that YOU think He should be like. But what Scriptural aspects of the Christian God do you believe negate Him as a possible candidate for God?

Oh? You got to pick and choose whether he is the one who sent a world wide flood,

Did you pick whether he is the one who arranged for Joseph Smith to find gold books with the book of mormon in them?

Do you consider it to be picking and choosing to say that the Philip who ate New York City does not exist?


Could you identify what you mean by "spiritual aspects' of said god?

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 10:45 am
by Audie
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
When you say "based on what we know of the Universe" this "we" you speak of are your fellow Christians; not the scientist who spend their lives studying the Universe; most of whom just so happen to be atheist right?
I mean based on what those "mostly atheist" scientists state.

So let me see if I’ve got this straight;

A) Evidence from the Universe points to God
B) Christians; most who know little about the Universe believe in God
C) Scientists who know a lot about the Universe mostly reject God.

It seems to me A is in direct contradiction to B & C. Where am I going wrong here?

Ken
Where are you going wrong?
Well, everywhere.

This is what you SHOULD have wrote IF you understood what I have been writing:

A) Evidence from the Universe points to a first cause/unmoved mover ( that which brings things that come into existence, into existence)
B) Christians believe this to be God
C) Scientists who know a lot about the Universe are NOT specialists in theology and as such, don't comment on the existence of God.


Understood?
Your ideas are easy to understand.

Do you understand how often truisms are merely facile, not true?

Is this evidence in the form of physical data?

Do physicists agree with you reading of what such data as there may be actually means?

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 11:34 am
by Philip
Audie: Oh? You got to pick and choose whether he is the one who sent a world wide flood,
OK, cheap shot - as you should know that the wording does not necessitate a global flood (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... flood.html)
Audie: Did you pick whether he is the one who arranged for Joseph Smith to find gold books with the book of mormon in them?
Audie, that's just a stupid comment - I would expect more honesty from you. You know that Joseph Smith's teachings are not considered Biblical by Christians, that one cannot even validate any of the geographic locations mentioned. And, as we're speaking of the BIBLE, what the heck does Joseph Smith have to do with it? That's what we around here call a strawman and a dodge!
Audie: Do you consider it to be picking and choosing to say that the Philip who ate New York City does not exist?


Audie, you are failing to have an honest discussion here by just throwing out dumb comments. You're not even being honest with yourself! No wonder you can't see the truth!
Audie: Could you identify what you mean by "spiritual aspects' of said god?
What you said was that IF God exists, that He cannot be the one of Scripture. So, I'm asking you what descriptions of God or His actions FROM SCRIPTURE do you believe negates the possibility that He is God? It's a simple question. Now, an honest answer of different actions you can't fathom God - or ANY God - wouldn't have or do - I can understand that. But, hopefully, you also know that, intellectually, just because you can't or don't understand a person, or truth, or whatever - that doesn't mean 1) it's NOT true and 2) it doesn't mean that this truthful thing doesn't exist. The reality of whatever truth doesn't become false just because you don't like or understand it. So, it's one thing to say, "I don't think a God would do this or that." Fine. But if He DID do this or that, your OPINION as to what YOU think He would or wouldn't have done, or what he is like, doesn't change whatever His reality is.

Let's say you are an orphan and were adopted as a tiny baby. You are now a grown woman. And you accidentally come across someone who knows exactly who your father is, where he is, and what he is like. And upon hearing him described, you realize that your supposed father doesn't think anything like you do, you can't understand what you're told his views are, or how he's described, or his past action make you feel uncomfortable - even though you don't know all of the details about Him - or what misconceptions you might have about him. And so, the more you know, you refuse to seek out your birth father, don't want to know him, and in fact you declare to your friend, "I don't believe my real father even still exists, and I KNOW that person could never be my father - as I think NOTHING like he does. So, Audie, would that mean that this person that you have been informed about could not be your father - as he's not what you would expect? Of course he could very well be your father. But what would make it impossible that he is your father? That some fact or facts that you know can PROVE that he cannot be your father. Say, you discover this man is far to old to credibly have been your father. Perhaps he lived in a foreign land during the time you know your real father had to live in whatever country you were born in. But short of some disproving facts, you know that, unless proven otherwise, that this man could well be your father. And so it is with God.

So, Audie, not based upon your preferences or current understandings, what SPECIFICALLY in the Bible, that describes God, His character, or His actions, do you believe PROVES the God of the Bible cannot exist? Because unless you have something that proves this, yours is simply feelings, preferences and personal opinion. So, give me some FACTS that make the God of the Bible impossible - and base it upon what Scripture says, not opinion, and not some strawman junk about Joseph Smith or other such nonsense!

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 12:00 pm
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
When you say "based on what we know of the Universe" this "we" you speak of are your fellow Christians; not the scientist who spend their lives studying the Universe; most of whom just so happen to be atheist right?
I mean based on what those "mostly atheist" scientists state.

So let me see if I’ve got this straight;

A) Evidence from the Universe points to God
B) Christians; most who know little about the Universe believe in God
C) Scientists who know a lot about the Universe mostly reject God.

It seems to me A is in direct contradiction to B & C. Where am I going wrong here?

Ken
Where are you going wrong?
Well, everywhere.

This is what you SHOULD have wrote IF you understood what I have been writing:

A) Evidence from the Universe points to a first cause/unmoved mover ( that which brings things that come into existence, into existence)
B) Christians believe this to be God
C) Scientists who know a lot about the Universe are NOT specialists in theology and as such, don't comment on the existence of God.


Understood?
So going back to my previous question, again; the "we" you were referring to is your fellow Christians, not the Scientists who spend their lives studying the Universe most of whom just so happen to be Atheist. Correct?

Ken

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 12:20 pm
by Byblos
Kenny wrote:So going back to my previous question, again; the "we" you were referring to is your fellow Christians, not the Scientists who spend their lives studying the Universe most of whom just so happen to be Atheist. Correct?
Kenny you do realize that one of the most prestigious astrophysics observatories in the world is located in the Vatican, don't you?

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 1:18 pm
by Audie
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:So going back to my previous question, again; the "we" you were referring to is your fellow Christians, not the Scientists who spend their lives studying the Universe most of whom just so happen to be Atheist. Correct?
Kenny you do realize that one of the most prestigious astrophysics observatories in the world is located in the Vatican, don't you?
They interviewed one of the astronomers on "On Being" some months ago.

For those who think it is like star trek, plz disregard and return to comic books.

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 1:22 pm
by Audie
Philip wrote:
Audie: Oh? You got to pick and choose whether he is the one who sent a world wide flood,
OK, cheap shot - as you should know that the wording does not necessitate a global flood (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... flood.html)
Only a cheap shot when i serve it back to you?


Audie: Did you pick whether he is the one who arranged for Joseph Smith to find gold books with the book of mormon in them?
Audie, that's just a stupid comment - I would expect more honesty from you. You know that Joseph Smith's teachings are not considered Biblical by Christians, that one cannot even validate any of the geographic locations mentioned. And, as we're speaking of the BIBLE, what the heck does Joseph Smith have to do with it? That's what we around here call a strawman and a dodge!
Ok..we are done. let me know if you want to behave decently some other time.
Audie: Do you consider it to be picking and choosing to say that the Philip who ate New York City does not exist?


Audie, you are failing to have an honest discussion here by just throwing out dumb comments. You're not even being honest with yourself! No wonder you can't see the truth!
Audie: Could you identify what you mean by "spiritual aspects' of said god?
What you said was that IF God exists, that He cannot be the one of Scripture. So, I'm asking you what descriptions of God or His actions FROM SCRIPTURE do you believe negates the possibility that He is God? It's a simple question. Now, an honest answer of different actions you can't fathom God - or ANY God - wouldn't have or do - I can understand that. But, hopefully, you also know that, intellectually, just because you can't or don't understand a person, or truth, or whatever - that doesn't mean 1) it's NOT true and 2) it doesn't mean that this truthful thing doesn't exist. The reality of whatever truth doesn't become false just because you don't like or understand it. So, it's one thing to say, "I don't think a God would do this or that." Fine. But if He DID do this or that, your OPINION as to what YOU think He would or wouldn't have done, or what he is like, doesn't change whatever His reality is.

Let's say you are an orphan and were adopted as a tiny baby. You are now a grown woman. And you accidentally come across someone who knows exactly who your father is, where he is, and what he is like. And upon hearing him described, you realize that your supposed father doesn't think anything like you do, you can't understand what you're told his views are, or how he's described, or his past action make you feel uncomfortable - even though you don't know all of the details about Him - or what misconceptions you might have about him. And so, the more you know, you refuse to seek out your birth father, don't want to know him, and in fact you declare to your friend, "I don't believe my real father even still exists, and I KNOW that person could never be my father - as I think NOTHING like he does. So, Audie, would that mean that this person that you have been informed about could not be your father - as he's not what you would expect? Of course he could very well be your father. But what would make it impossible that he is your father? That some fact or facts that you know can PROVE that he cannot be your father. Say, you discover this man is far to old to credibly have been your father. Perhaps he lived in a foreign land during the time you know your real father had to live in whatever country you were born in. But short of some disproving facts, you know that, unless proven otherwise, that this man could well be your father. And so it is with God.

So, Audie, not based upon your preferences or current understandings, what SPECIFICALLY in the Bible, that describes God, His character, or His actions, do you believe PROVES the God of the Bible cannot exist? Because unless you have something that proves this, yours is simply feelings, preferences and personal opinion. So, give me some FACTS that make the God of the Bible impossible - and base it upon what Scripture says, not opinion, and not some strawman junk about Joseph Smith or other such nonsense!

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 1:24 pm
by RickD
Kenny wrote:

So going back to my previous question, again; the "we" you were referring to is your fellow Christians, not the Scientists who spend their lives studying the Universe most of whom just so happen to be Atheist. Correct
Kenny,

Astronomers and astrophysicists tend more often than not, to believe in God. Knowledgeable astrophysicists realize there's overwhelming evidence for God, from studying their branch of science.

Here's just one example.

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 1:51 pm
by Storyteller
Her testimony is amazingly, beautifully moving.


Audie.... if you love me at all.... read her testimony, please.
And Ken.

Re: Why I never became an atheist.

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 1:53 pm
by Audie
Storyteller wrote:Her testimony is amazingly, beautifully moving.


Audie.... if you love me at all.... read her testimony, please.
And Ken.
Who?