Question: What is Math?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
User avatar
Kurieuo
Technical Admin
Posts: 8902
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia

Question: What is Math?

Postby Kurieuo » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:45 pm

I've raised this in a previous thread to do with universals some time ago, but let's focus in on Math.

The following YouTube video asks the question:
"Is Math a Feature of the Universe, or a Feature of Human Creation?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbNymweHW4E

I'd be interested in anyone who questions God's existence to watch the video, it's entertaining.
Then think about the question and give your response.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

___________________

Image

Kenny
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2649
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:17 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby Kenny » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:45 pm

Kurieuo wrote:I've raised this in a previous thread to do with universals some time ago, but let's focus in on Math.

The following YouTube video asks the question:
"Is Math a Feature of the Universe, or a Feature of Human Creation?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbNymweHW4E

I'd be interested in anyone who questions God's existence to watch the video, it's entertaining.
Then think about the question and give your response.


I’m sorry I didn’t have the patience to listen to the whole thing; I found this guys ramble completely absurd.

Does math exist? Of course not! Math does not exist by itself, it only exist within the context of human thought; yes humans created math.
It isn’t a coincidence that math is based upon the 10 and humans have 10 fingers. If we had 12 fingers math would be completely different. Math no more exist than numbers exist.
Numbers are representative tokens humans imagine to represent things that actually do exist.
Math is a system humans created to calculate these representative tokens that are used to represent things that do exist.
It's as simple as that.

Ken

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3296
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Contact:

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby neo-x » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:10 pm

Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:I've raised this in a previous thread to do with universals some time ago, but let's focus in on Math.

The following YouTube video asks the question:
"Is Math a Feature of the Universe, or a Feature of Human Creation?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbNymweHW4E

I'd be interested in anyone who questions God's existence to watch the video, it's entertaining.
Then think about the question and give your response.


I’m sorry I didn’t have the patience to listen to the whole thing; I found this guys ramble completely absurd.

Does math exist? Of course not! Math does not exist by itself, it only exist within the context of human thought; yes humans created math.
It isn’t a coincidence that math is based upon the 10 and humans have 10 fingers. If we had 12 fingers math would be completely different. Math no more exist than numbers exist.
Numbers are representative tokens humans imagine to represent things that actually do exist.
Math is a system humans created to calculate these representative tokens that are used to represent things that do exist.
It's as simple as that.

Ken


While I don't use maths as a proof of God or the question of it, there are some pretty strange things out there, for instance the golden ratio? there are universals which are quite hardened in nature and not in human thought alone. In other words I would not be so quick to dismiss it.
People treat facts as relevant more when the facts tend to support their opinions. When the facts are against their opinions, they don't necessarily deny the facts, but they say the facts are less relevant or insignificant. This is ofcourse because believing things that make you feel comfortable, takes a priority. And I think that should not be the case if one is after truth.

http://johnadavid.wordpress.com

Kenny
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2649
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:17 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby Kenny » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:56 pm

neo-x wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:I've raised this in a previous thread to do with universals some time ago, but let's focus in on Math.

The following YouTube video asks the question:
"Is Math a Feature of the Universe, or a Feature of Human Creation?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbNymweHW4E

I'd be interested in anyone who questions God's existence to watch the video, it's entertaining.
Then think about the question and give your response.


I’m sorry I didn’t have the patience to listen to the whole thing; I found this guys ramble completely absurd.

Does math exist? Of course not! Math does not exist by itself, it only exist within the context of human thought; yes humans created math.
It isn’t a coincidence that math is based upon the 10 and humans have 10 fingers. If we had 12 fingers math would be completely different. Math no more exist than numbers exist.
Numbers are representative tokens humans imagine to represent things that actually do exist.
Math is a system humans created to calculate these representative tokens that are used to represent things that do exist.
It's as simple as that.

Ken


While I don't use maths as a proof of God or the question of it, there are some pretty strange things out there, for instance the golden ratio? there are universals which are quite hardened in nature and not in human thought alone. In other words I would not be so quick to dismiss it.

Isn't the Golden Ratio another system used to calculate these imaginary representative tokens used in place of things that do exist?

Ken

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5488
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Contact:

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby Jac3510 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:08 pm

These are long, but they are soooooooooooooooooooo worth watching! Craig goes into detail (especially in later lectures) on the philosophy of mathematics. Just amazing stuff.







:eugeek:
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5679
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby Byblos » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:57 am

Kenny wrote:Does math exist? Of course not! Math does not exist by itself, it only exist within the context of human thought; yes humans created math.
It isn’t a coincidence that math is based upon the 10 and humans have 10 fingers. If we had 12 fingers math would be completely different. Math no more exist than numbers exist.
Numbers are representative tokens humans imagine to represent things that actually do exist.
Math is a system humans created to calculate these representative tokens that are used to represent things that do exist.
It's as simple as that.

Ken


If math exists only in the construct of human thought then how is it that it is not only descriptive but also predictive? How is it that using mathematics we can predict the existence of the Higgs boson decades before its actual discovery in reality?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

Kenny
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2649
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:17 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby Kenny » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:43 am

Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:Does math exist? Of course not! Math does not exist by itself, it only exist within the context of human thought; yes humans created math.
It isn’t a coincidence that math is based upon the 10 and humans have 10 fingers. If we had 12 fingers math would be completely different. Math no more exist than numbers exist.
Numbers are representative tokens humans imagine to represent things that actually do exist.
Math is a system humans created to calculate these representative tokens that are used to represent things that do exist.
It's as simple as that.

Ken


If math exists only in the construct of human thought then how is it that it is not only descriptive but also predictive? How is it that using mathematics we can predict the existence of the Higgs boson decades before its actual discovery in reality?

Math didn't predict anything; people using math did.

Ken

User avatar
Kurieuo
Technical Admin
Posts: 8902
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby Kurieuo » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:07 pm

Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:Does math exist? Of course not! Math does not exist by itself, it only exist within the context of human thought; yes humans created math.
It isn’t a coincidence that math is based upon the 10 and humans have 10 fingers. If we had 12 fingers math would be completely different. Math no more exist than numbers exist.
Numbers are representative tokens humans imagine to represent things that actually do exist.
Math is a system humans created to calculate these representative tokens that are used to represent things that do exist.
It's as simple as that.

Ken


If math exists only in the construct of human thought then how is it that it is not only descriptive but also predictive? How is it that using mathematics we can predict the existence of the Higgs boson decades before its actual discovery in reality?

Math didn't predict anything; people using math did.

Ken

Have you been doing Common Core Kenny? :P (if you didn't understand that, never mind)

If everyone thought 2 + 3 = 6 or that that pi was 3.41,
because it's only a construct of human mind then that's what we'd work with.

Image
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

___________________

Image

User avatar
Kurieuo
Technical Admin
Posts: 8902
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby Kurieuo » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:09 pm

Jac3510 wrote:These are long, but they are soooooooooooooooooooo worth watching! Craig goes into detail (especially in later lectures) on the philosophy of mathematics. Just amazing stuff.

Well, you've outgeeked me phil-theologically Jac. The first one sent me to sleep. :lol:
Craig did a lot of the work, but then the Buddhist person got up and :sleep:

As a side, if aseity was a new concept for the guy introducing, then I was wondering while Craig was talking how much the audience would really understand at all. Do you think many would have really connected with what was being discussed? I don't think so, but then it's put online now so... I could follow Craig, but then I wonder how much just sounds like gibberish to others. That's kind of sad in a way.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

___________________

Image

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5488
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Contact:

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby Jac3510 » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:32 pm

Haha, I had the exact same thought. I was shocked that the idea of aseity was a new concept. I mean, what the heck are those people studying?!?

Anyway, I confess I didn't bother with the Q&As at the end of the sessions. Figured they would be a waste of time, not so much because people ask dumb questions (though they do), but because they ask the wrong ones. I'm far more interested in just hearing Craig's thoughts and letting them stimulate my own. In any case, I think Craig does an excellent job of walking through the various metaphysical approaches to abstract objects generally and to numbers in particular. Anybody who just writes this stuff off by saying, "Numbers don't actually refer to anything" clearly hasn't thought more than two seconds about the question.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5679
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby Byblos » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:33 am

Kenny wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:Does math exist? Of course not! Math does not exist by itself, it only exist within the context of human thought; yes humans created math.
It isn’t a coincidence that math is based upon the 10 and humans have 10 fingers. If we had 12 fingers math would be completely different. Math no more exist than numbers exist.
Numbers are representative tokens humans imagine to represent things that actually do exist.
Math is a system humans created to calculate these representative tokens that are used to represent things that do exist.
It's as simple as that.

Ken


If math exists only in the construct of human thought then how is it that it is not only descriptive but also predictive? How is it that using mathematics we can predict the existence of the Higgs boson decades before its actual discovery in reality?

Math didn't predict anything; people using math did.

Ken



:pound: :pound: :pound:

You possess this uncanny ability to offer seemingly profound answers while saying absolutely nothing. You are one-of-a-kind Kenny. Oh, wait, that was a mathematical statement, must be a construct of your imagination. :mrgreen:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

IceMobster
Senior Member
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:17 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Location: Europe

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby IceMobster » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:06 am

Byblos wrote:.
Do you mind explaining "How is it that using mathematics we can predict the existence of the Higgs boson decades before its actual discovery in reality?"?
Ken is right. Math didn't do anything. Humans did by using it.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOXMf6yDCU

Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5679
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby Byblos » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:13 am

IceMobster wrote:
Byblos wrote:.
Do you mind explaining "How is it that using mathematics we can predict the existence of the Higgs boson decades before its actual discovery in reality?"?
Ken is right. Math didn't do anything. Humans did by using it.


And exactly what point are you (or him) trying to convey?

My point, of course, being that we can take an abstract idea or construct that only exists in the human mind (supposedly, according to ken and you if you agree with him) and then turn it around and use it to predict something that is very concrete and part of the reality we live in. Unless you (and him) want to posit that the reality we live in is also a construct of our mind then you and him, my friends, have a yuuuge (a la Trump) duality problem, don't you.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

IceMobster
Senior Member
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:17 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Location: Europe

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby IceMobster » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:25 am

Byblos wrote:
IceMobster wrote:
Byblos wrote:.
Do you mind explaining "How is it that using mathematics we can predict the existence of the Higgs boson decades before its actual discovery in reality?"?
Ken is right. Math didn't do anything. Humans did by using it.


And exactly what point are you (or him) trying to convey?

My point, of course, being that we can take an abstract idea or construct that only exists in the human mind (supposedly, according to ken and you if you agree with him) and then turn it around and use it to predict something that is very concrete and part of the reality we live in. Unless you (and him) want to posit that the reality we live in is also a construct of our mind then you and him, my friends, have a yuuuge (a la Trump) duality problem, don't you.

Why so cocky, man?
Anyway, you paraphrased and elaborated what you said in that one sentence. What I am interested in, is that you give exact example for such a prediction because I don't get it.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOXMf6yDCU

Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

Kenny
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2649
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:17 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation

Re: Question: What is Math?

Postby Kenny » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:27 am

Byblos wrote:
IceMobster wrote:
Byblos wrote:.
Do you mind explaining "How is it that using mathematics we can predict the existence of the Higgs boson decades before its actual discovery in reality?"?
Ken is right. Math didn't do anything. Humans did by using it.


And exactly what point are you (or him) trying to convey?

My point, of course, being that we can take an abstract idea or construct that only exists in the human mind (supposedly, according to ken and you if you agree with him) and then turn it around and use it to predict something that is very concrete and part of the reality we live in.


Yes! Mankind has been formulating ideas, plans, systems, and hypothesis, in his mind and using these plans, systems, ideas and hypothesis to invent, construct, predict, and accomplish things in the part of reality we live in. That’s what separates us from the monkeys!

Ken


Return to “Questioning Non-belief”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests