Why I am not an Atheist

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
Justhuman
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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby Justhuman » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:49 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Justhuman wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Justhuman wrote:@Kurieuo
Will look into the videos later...

Do you suggest that our thoughts (will, soul) reside somewhere outside our brain? In an immaterial, or other specific non-physical, 'space'?

Isn't it obvious? ;) If what we directly experience isn't formed by our brains, then such suggests this "seat of consciousness" which puts the fuller picture together of the world we experience is at least more than merely our brain.

Furthermore, I wouldn't merely suggest but argue strongly that the world, our world, isn't material only. It seems obvious to me it isn't and that an ontology of reality that is exclusively material/physical is rather naive, simplicistic, goes against common intuitions and wrong.

Before you jump the gun to relegate such a position (mine) to Christians, God-believers or the like, various respectible secular philosophers have also come out in agreement with such based upon rational arguments. So then, belief in "Materialism" doesn't necessarily boil to a Believer vs non-Believer issue.

I think the biggest problem with an immaterial 'anything' is its relation to material stuff.

Some (like Merleau-Ponty) believed it to be a false dichotemy to split the two, but believe there to be really one substance (body-subject) that possesses what we wrongly split into say "material" (body) and "immaterial" (mind) categories.

Perhaps such are correct, that there is really one substance possessing both material and immaterial properties. It could be that Materialists just look at the material side of things since they find it hard to see beyond what is directly physically experienced, and then those with more of a "spiritual spark" so-to-speak, have some kind of fascination with such, and so elevate their own subjective experiences. Somewhere inbetween, surely, there is a correct harmonisation of the two?

Yet, what if there is really only one substance? To borrow from Aristotle, a hylomorphism of sorts that is both "matter" and "form" / "material" and "immaterial" / "body" and "soul" which correctly understood is just one and the same substance. Modern Atheist philosophers like Thomas Nagel wish to posit that "Nature" itself is comprised also of some sort of "laws of consciousness" waiting to be discovered, in addition to the physical laws we better understand. Thus, if true, then there is no relationship issue at all -- because we are talking about the one and the same foundational substance.

Now, as for what I believe, I can appreciate the above position/s and am open to them. Yet, it doesn't matter here what I believe. What is significant is that many philosophers have put forward solutions to the material-immaterial issue (better understood as the "mind-body" issue) of how the two can "relate" and influence each other while appearing to be so diametrically different. So then, in a Philosophy 101 class where the "relationship problem" is presented as a surface-level objection against Substance Dualism, this issue might remain with students who do not do their research assignment on such and delve deeply into it. But, let me just say here, it is a surface-level objection and a great many solutions exist and have been proposed which would resolve this apparent dilemma (like the position/s presented above).

The one thing that remains, the issue which has entertained many great thinkers even until this day, is that the mind with its mental states appear to be qualititavely distinct from the brain or physical states. Given both exist, how are we to reconcile them together? Adhering to a simple Materialism seems to me woefully inadequate when explaining more experiential and subjective elements.

Well... You certainly keep me busy reading about different perspectives. Hard to follow all those alternatives and grasping what it really means.
However, to state that the material body and immaterial mind might be about the same substance means that it should be detectable. But are you now conjuring up some new substance, just to fill in the gap that presents itself? Shouldn't such a substance be allready (theoretically) known, amongst all fundamentall research?

Furthermore, what about the soul and spirit? If one dies, the spirit and/or soul should detach themself from the body (brain). With one substance, that detachment should be visible, or at least detectable. Billions have died and never has a detachment of the soul/spirit been witnessed, no proof or evidence or anything else that comes close to a even hint. And never has there been found anything that resembles anything close to what could be a (or the) mind, spirit or soul.

Isn't it all the mind?

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abelcainsbrother
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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby abelcainsbrother » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:16 pm

Justhuman wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Justhuman wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Justhuman wrote:@Kurieuo
Will look into the videos later...

Do you suggest that our thoughts (will, soul) reside somewhere outside our brain? In an immaterial, or other specific non-physical, 'space'?

Isn't it obvious? ;) If what we directly experience isn't formed by our brains, then such suggests this "seat of consciousness" which puts the fuller picture together of the world we experience is at least more than merely our brain.

Furthermore, I wouldn't merely suggest but argue strongly that the world, our world, isn't material only. It seems obvious to me it isn't and that an ontology of reality that is exclusively material/physical is rather naive, simplicistic, goes against common intuitions and wrong.

Before you jump the gun to relegate such a position (mine) to Christians, God-believers or the like, various respectible secular philosophers have also come out in agreement with such based upon rational arguments. So then, belief in "Materialism" doesn't necessarily boil to a Believer vs non-Believer issue.

I think the biggest problem with an immaterial 'anything' is its relation to material stuff.

Some (like Merleau-Ponty) believed it to be a false dichotemy to split the two, but believe there to be really one substance (body-subject) that possesses what we wrongly split into say "material" (body) and "immaterial" (mind) categories.

Perhaps such are correct, that there is really one substance possessing both material and immaterial properties. It could be that Materialists just look at the material side of things since they find it hard to see beyond what is directly physically experienced, and then those with more of a "spiritual spark" so-to-speak, have some kind of fascination with such, and so elevate their own subjective experiences. Somewhere inbetween, surely, there is a correct harmonisation of the two?

Yet, what if there is really only one substance? To borrow from Aristotle, a hylomorphism of sorts that is both "matter" and "form" / "material" and "immaterial" / "body" and "soul" which correctly understood is just one and the same substance. Modern Atheist philosophers like Thomas Nagel wish to posit that "Nature" itself is comprised also of some sort of "laws of consciousness" waiting to be discovered, in addition to the physical laws we better understand. Thus, if true, then there is no relationship issue at all -- because we are talking about the one and the same foundational substance.

Now, as for what I believe, I can appreciate the above position/s and am open to them. Yet, it doesn't matter here what I believe. What is significant is that many philosophers have put forward solutions to the material-immaterial issue (better understood as the "mind-body" issue) of how the two can "relate" and influence each other while appearing to be so diametrically different. So then, in a Philosophy 101 class where the "relationship problem" is presented as a surface-level objection against Substance Dualism, this issue might remain with students who do not do their research assignment on such and delve deeply into it. But, let me just say here, it is a surface-level objection and a great many solutions exist and have been proposed which would resolve this apparent dilemma (like the position/s presented above).

The one thing that remains, the issue which has entertained many great thinkers even until this day, is that the mind with its mental states appear to be qualititavely distinct from the brain or physical states. Given both exist, how are we to reconcile them together? Adhering to a simple Materialism seems to me woefully inadequate when explaining more experiential and subjective elements.

Well... You certainly keep me busy reading about different perspectives. Hard to follow all those alternatives and grasping what it really means.
However, to state that the material body and immaterial mind might be about the same substance means that it should be detectable. But are you now conjuring up some new substance, just to fill in the gap that presents itself? Shouldn't such a substance be allready (theoretically) known, amongst all fundamentall research?

Furthermore, what about the soul and spirit? If one dies, the spirit and/or soul should detach themself from the body (brain). With one substance, that detachment should be visible, or at least detectable. Billions have died and never has a detachment of the soul/spirit been witnessed, no proof or evidence or anything else that comes close to a even hint. And never has there been found anything that resembles anything close to what could be a (or the) mind, spirit or soul.

Isn't it all the mind?



Science does not delve into the spiritual realm by choice though,so it is no wonder why they have no evidence or theories about spiritual matters so they should be the last people on earth that you rely on when it comes to spiritual matters.Instead look to experts in the spiritual realm and not science.Jesus Christ would be an expert by the way.But this means relying on people who have experience dealing with the spiritual realm or spiritual matters like soul/spirit,miracles,God,religions,etc.I must say though that when people who know about spiritual matters inform you about it and you disregard it or ignore it,etc it is no difference than somebody not understanding scientific theories and them just rejecting it out of a lack of understanding of the theories just because they don't trust scientists.

Selling The Dogma
https://youtu.be/uOYc3wDBe4M
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby Justhuman » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:19 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Justhuman wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Justhuman wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Isn't it obvious? ;) If what we directly experience isn't formed by our brains, then such suggests this "seat of consciousness" which puts the fuller picture together of the world we experience is at least more than merely our brain.

Furthermore, I wouldn't merely suggest but argue strongly that the world, our world, isn't material only. It seems obvious to me it isn't and that an ontology of reality that is exclusively material/physical is rather naive, simplicistic, goes against common intuitions and wrong.

Before you jump the gun to relegate such a position (mine) to Christians, God-believers or the like, various respectible secular philosophers have also come out in agreement with such based upon rational arguments. So then, belief in "Materialism" doesn't necessarily boil to a Believer vs non-Believer issue.

I think the biggest problem with an immaterial 'anything' is its relation to material stuff.

Some (like Merleau-Ponty) believed it to be a false dichotemy to split the two, but believe there to be really one substance (body-subject) that possesses what we wrongly split into say "material" (body) and "immaterial" (mind) categories.

Perhaps such are correct, that there is really one substance possessing both material and immaterial properties. It could be that Materialists just look at the material side of things since they find it hard to see beyond what is directly physically experienced, and then those with more of a "spiritual spark" so-to-speak, have some kind of fascination with such, and so elevate their own subjective experiences. Somewhere inbetween, surely, there is a correct harmonisation of the two?

Yet, what if there is really only one substance? To borrow from Aristotle, a hylomorphism of sorts that is both "matter" and "form" / "material" and "immaterial" / "body" and "soul" which correctly understood is just one and the same substance. Modern Atheist philosophers like Thomas Nagel wish to posit that "Nature" itself is comprised also of some sort of "laws of consciousness" waiting to be discovered, in addition to the physical laws we better understand. Thus, if true, then there is no relationship issue at all -- because we are talking about the one and the same foundational substance.

Now, as for what I believe, I can appreciate the above position/s and am open to them. Yet, it doesn't matter here what I believe. What is significant is that many philosophers have put forward solutions to the material-immaterial issue (better understood as the "mind-body" issue) of how the two can "relate" and influence each other while appearing to be so diametrically different. So then, in a Philosophy 101 class where the "relationship problem" is presented as a surface-level objection against Substance Dualism, this issue might remain with students who do not do their research assignment on such and delve deeply into it. But, let me just say here, it is a surface-level objection and a great many solutions exist and have been proposed which would resolve this apparent dilemma (like the position/s presented above).

The one thing that remains, the issue which has entertained many great thinkers even until this day, is that the mind with its mental states appear to be qualititavely distinct from the brain or physical states. Given both exist, how are we to reconcile them together? Adhering to a simple Materialism seems to me woefully inadequate when explaining more experiential and subjective elements.

Well... You certainly keep me busy reading about different perspectives. Hard to follow all those alternatives and grasping what it really means.
However, to state that the material body and immaterial mind might be about the same substance means that it should be detectable. But are you now conjuring up some new substance, just to fill in the gap that presents itself? Shouldn't such a substance be allready (theoretically) known, amongst all fundamentall research?

Furthermore, what about the soul and spirit? If one dies, the spirit and/or soul should detach themself from the body (brain). With one substance, that detachment should be visible, or at least detectable. Billions have died and never has a detachment of the soul/spirit been witnessed, no proof or evidence or anything else that comes close to a even hint. And never has there been found anything that resembles anything close to what could be a (or the) mind, spirit or soul.

Isn't it all the mind?



Science does not delve into the spiritual realm by choice though,so it is no wonder why they have no evidence or theories about spiritual matters so they should be the last people on earth that you rely on when it comes to spiritual matters.Instead look to experts in the spiritual realm and not science.Jesus Christ would be an expert by the way.But this means relying on people who have experience dealing with the spiritual realm or spiritual matters like soul/spirit,miracles,God,religions,etc.I must say though that when people who know about spiritual matters inform you about it and you disregard it or ignore it,etc it is no difference than somebody not understanding scientific theories and them just rejecting it out of a lack of understanding of the theories just because they don't trust scientists.

Selling The Dogma
https://youtu.be/uOYc3wDBe4M

Why should science not explore the spiritual world? If the spiritual world exist, it definitely is something worthy of scientific research, for science explores that what exitsts. But never (scientifically) has there anytime been found anything that supports any existence of a ghost, spirit, soul, or even an 'hidden' immaterial realm of any kind... Well, maybe the multidimensional concepts of the string theory. But that's rather parallel than immaterial.
For something so fundamental in our existence, as the spiritual realm is claimed to be, there is none 'physical' evidence/proof/indication it exists. Have you ever seen a ghost? Did you ever witness the soul leaving a just deceased body? Did anyone?
The 'experts' in the spiritual realm have no proof/evidence at all of the true existence of that spiritual realm. And which one of those experts should we listen to? They all claim to 'know' the truth. There is no consensus between what in fact should be the same to all.
It's not to me to state that someone claiming to have seen a ghost has had a delusion of some kind, but it are allways personal experiences, never backed up by some tangeable evidence.

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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby Kenny » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:12 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Justhuman wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Justhuman wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Isn't it obvious? ;) If what we directly experience isn't formed by our brains, then such suggests this "seat of consciousness" which puts the fuller picture together of the world we experience is at least more than merely our brain.

Furthermore, I wouldn't merely suggest but argue strongly that the world, our world, isn't material only. It seems obvious to me it isn't and that an ontology of reality that is exclusively material/physical is rather naive, simplicistic, goes against common intuitions and wrong.

Before you jump the gun to relegate such a position (mine) to Christians, God-believers or the like, various respectible secular philosophers have also come out in agreement with such based upon rational arguments. So then, belief in "Materialism" doesn't necessarily boil to a Believer vs non-Believer issue.

I think the biggest problem with an immaterial 'anything' is its relation to material stuff.

Some (like Merleau-Ponty) believed it to be a false dichotemy to split the two, but believe there to be really one substance (body-subject) that possesses what we wrongly split into say "material" (body) and "immaterial" (mind) categories.

Perhaps such are correct, that there is really one substance possessing both material and immaterial properties. It could be that Materialists just look at the material side of things since they find it hard to see beyond what is directly physically experienced, and then those with more of a "spiritual spark" so-to-speak, have some kind of fascination with such, and so elevate their own subjective experiences. Somewhere inbetween, surely, there is a correct harmonisation of the two?

Yet, what if there is really only one substance? To borrow from Aristotle, a hylomorphism of sorts that is both "matter" and "form" / "material" and "immaterial" / "body" and "soul" which correctly understood is just one and the same substance. Modern Atheist philosophers like Thomas Nagel wish to posit that "Nature" itself is comprised also of some sort of "laws of consciousness" waiting to be discovered, in addition to the physical laws we better understand. Thus, if true, then there is no relationship issue at all -- because we are talking about the one and the same foundational substance.

Now, as for what I believe, I can appreciate the above position/s and am open to them. Yet, it doesn't matter here what I believe. What is significant is that many philosophers have put forward solutions to the material-immaterial issue (better understood as the "mind-body" issue) of how the two can "relate" and influence each other while appearing to be so diametrically different. So then, in a Philosophy 101 class where the "relationship problem" is presented as a surface-level objection against Substance Dualism, this issue might remain with students who do not do their research assignment on such and delve deeply into it. But, let me just say here, it is a surface-level objection and a great many solutions exist and have been proposed which would resolve this apparent dilemma (like the position/s presented above).

The one thing that remains, the issue which has entertained many great thinkers even until this day, is that the mind with its mental states appear to be qualititavely distinct from the brain or physical states. Given both exist, how are we to reconcile them together? Adhering to a simple Materialism seems to me woefully inadequate when explaining more experiential and subjective elements.

Well... You certainly keep me busy reading about different perspectives. Hard to follow all those alternatives and grasping what it really means.
However, to state that the material body and immaterial mind might be about the same substance means that it should be detectable. But are you now conjuring up some new substance, just to fill in the gap that presents itself? Shouldn't such a substance be allready (theoretically) known, amongst all fundamentall research?

Furthermore, what about the soul and spirit? If one dies, the spirit and/or soul should detach themself from the body (brain). With one substance, that detachment should be visible, or at least detectable. Billions have died and never has a detachment of the soul/spirit been witnessed, no proof or evidence or anything else that comes close to a even hint. And never has there been found anything that resembles anything close to what could be a (or the) mind, spirit or soul.

Isn't it all the mind?



Science does not delve into the spiritual realm by choice though,so it is no wonder why they have no evidence or theories about spiritual matters so they should be the last people on earth that you rely on when it comes to spiritual matters.



There has actually been cases of science attempting to find evidence of the Spiritual realm. There was even an attempt to measure the weight of a soul which was discredited during the peer review process.
http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp
The fact is, there just isn’t any evidence the spiritual realm exists; if there were, people would use the scientific method to study it.

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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby Philip » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:59 pm

The fact is, there just isn’t any evidence the spiritual realm exists; if there were, people would use the scientific method to study it.


Uh, Ken, what realm CAN the scientific method study? The PHYSICAL realm, correct? But the spiritual realm isn't physical - which is why they scientific method is inadequate as to the task. Now, the scientific method does reveal many astounding, immensely improbable things with unbelievably-thin margins, many mathematically improbable things coming into existence without an intelligent cause - things checking all the boxes for an origin of astounding intelligence - these science CAN measures. But they can't measure or prove the Source. It can't examine the soul, thoughts (other than electrical impulses), the conscience, feelings (other than their physical manifestation, they descriptions. Science can't measure before a specific point of the Big Bang's beginning - why, because there was a point in which there was no physical (yep, that's what physicists insist about the moments of the early universe).

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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby Kenny » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:58 pm

Philip wrote:
The fact is, there just isn’t any evidence the spiritual realm exists; if there were, people would use the scientific method to study it.


Uh, Ken, what realm CAN the scientific method study? The PHYSICAL realm, correct? But the spiritual realm isn't physical - which is why they scientific method is inadequate as to the task. Now, the scientific method does reveal many astounding, immensely improbable things with unbelievably-thin margins, many mathematically improbable things coming into existence without an intelligent cause - things checking all the boxes for an origin of astounding intelligence - these science CAN measures. But they can't measure or prove the Source. It can't examine the soul, thoughts (other than electrical impulses), the conscience, feelings (other than their physical manifestation, they descriptions. Science can't measure before a specific point of the Big Bang's beginning - why, because there was a point in which there was no physical (yep, that's what physicists insist about the moments of the early universe).

The person I was responding to made the claim that science chooses not to look into the spiritual realm. I was pointing out that there are those who did choose to look, but they just didn't find anything.

Ken

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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby Kurieuo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:00 pm

Justhuman wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Justhuman wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Justhuman wrote:@Kurieuo
Will look into the videos later...

Do you suggest that our thoughts (will, soul) reside somewhere outside our brain? In an immaterial, or other specific non-physical, 'space'?

Isn't it obvious? ;) If what we directly experience isn't formed by our brains, then such suggests this "seat of consciousness" which puts the fuller picture together of the world we experience is at least more than merely our brain.

Furthermore, I wouldn't merely suggest but argue strongly that the world, our world, isn't material only. It seems obvious to me it isn't and that an ontology of reality that is exclusively material/physical is rather naive, simplicistic, goes against common intuitions and wrong.

Before you jump the gun to relegate such a position (mine) to Christians, God-believers or the like, various respectible secular philosophers have also come out in agreement with such based upon rational arguments. So then, belief in "Materialism" doesn't necessarily boil to a Believer vs non-Believer issue.

I think the biggest problem with an immaterial 'anything' is its relation to material stuff.

Some (like Merleau-Ponty) believed it to be a false dichotemy to split the two, but believe there to be really one substance (body-subject) that possesses what we wrongly split into say "material" (body) and "immaterial" (mind) categories.

Perhaps such are correct, that there is really one substance possessing both material and immaterial properties. It could be that Materialists just look at the material side of things since they find it hard to see beyond what is directly physically experienced, and then those with more of a "spiritual spark" so-to-speak, have some kind of fascination with such, and so elevate their own subjective experiences. Somewhere inbetween, surely, there is a correct harmonisation of the two?

Yet, what if there is really only one substance? To borrow from Aristotle, a hylomorphism of sorts that is both "matter" and "form" / "material" and "immaterial" / "body" and "soul" which correctly understood is just one and the same substance. Modern Atheist philosophers like Thomas Nagel wish to posit that "Nature" itself is comprised also of some sort of "laws of consciousness" waiting to be discovered, in addition to the physical laws we better understand. Thus, if true, then there is no relationship issue at all -- because we are talking about the one and the same foundational substance.

Now, as for what I believe, I can appreciate the above position/s and am open to them. Yet, it doesn't matter here what I believe. What is significant is that many philosophers have put forward solutions to the material-immaterial issue (better understood as the "mind-body" issue) of how the two can "relate" and influence each other while appearing to be so diametrically different. So then, in a Philosophy 101 class where the "relationship problem" is presented as a surface-level objection against Substance Dualism, this issue might remain with students who do not do their research assignment on such and delve deeply into it. But, let me just say here, it is a surface-level objection and a great many solutions exist and have been proposed which would resolve this apparent dilemma (like the position/s presented above).

The one thing that remains, the issue which has entertained many great thinkers even until this day, is that the mind with its mental states appear to be qualititavely distinct from the brain or physical states. Given both exist, how are we to reconcile them together? Adhering to a simple Materialism seems to me woefully inadequate when explaining more experiential and subjective elements.

Well... You certainly keep me busy reading about different perspectives. Hard to follow all those alternatives and grasping what it really means.
However, to state that the material body and immaterial mind might be about the same substance means that it should be detectable. But are you now conjuring up some new substance, just to fill in the gap that presents itself? Shouldn't such a substance be allready (theoretically) known, amongst all fundamentall research?

What "gap" is presenting itself? It is actually well acknowledged by many rational thinkers in academia that the modern materialist approach doesn't simply have gaps, but fails to explain important mind-related features of our world -- consciousness, intentionality, meaning, and value.

Thomas Nagel (Atheist) argues this failure to account for something so integral to nature as mind is a major problem. It threatens to unravel the entire naturalistic world picture if not dealt with. His book, Mind and Cosmos, I believe represents an honest appraisal of where the mind-body issue is at today. His thinking will filter down, and I expect his call to deal with materialistic problems, will become more acknowledged in upcoming generations.

So to answer your question, I think you're barking up the wrong tree/s if you're tending towards thinking this is on par with some "God of the gaps" argument.

Further, I don't feel best to fill in any "gaps" in your knowledge on this issue, so would encourage you to investigate positions and the like further on your own -- keep an open mind (and heart) throughout your life as you discover and learn more. That's all I'd hope and recommend for you.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby Kurieuo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:20 pm

Justhuman wrote:Furthermore, what about the soul and spirit? If one dies, the spirit and/or soul should detach themself from the body (brain). With one substance, that detachment should be visible, or at least detectable. Billions have died and never has a detachment of the soul/spirit been witnessed, no proof or evidence or anything else that comes close to a even hint. And never has there been found anything that resembles anything close to what could be a (or the) mind, spirit or soul.

Isn't it all the mind?

Descarte relegated the "soul" to simpy the "mind". Thomists don't. I don't. Cartesian Dualism (Descarte) is very different from Thomistic Dualism. This is likely why you also tend towards seeing issue between the "body" and "mind", issues between how they relate, influenced by a dualism of sorts after Descarte who made an argument for the mind being some "seat of the soul" in the body (and entirely distinct from the body).

I performed a quick search on "Thomistic substance dualism vs cartesian" for you, as I have limited time and it can get quite complicated. Skimming this article seems to cover some of the issues you keep raising / running into in your thinking. I'd recommend that article to you to help with understanding some differences between the two.

It seems to me that you've been introduced to/influenced with a Cartesian Dualistic form of understanding the body-soul, which I myself do not believe can be fully sustained. In my experience, I find many Christians (mainly those who haven't researched and reasoned deeply on such) tend to be confused about the soul, or for lack of care in their words often present one foot in Cartesian and the other in Thomistic. Yet, more often than not more researched and intellectual Christians in my experience tend towards embracing the Thomistic form.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby RickD » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:28 am

Kenny wrote:
Philip wrote:
The fact is, there just isn’t any evidence the spiritual realm exists; if there were, people would use the scientific method to study it.


Uh, Ken, what realm CAN the scientific method study? The PHYSICAL realm, correct? But the spiritual realm isn't physical - which is why they scientific method is inadequate as to the task. Now, the scientific method does reveal many astounding, immensely improbable things with unbelievably-thin margins, many mathematically improbable things coming into existence without an intelligent cause - things checking all the boxes for an origin of astounding intelligence - these science CAN measures. But they can't measure or prove the Source. It can't examine the soul, thoughts (other than electrical impulses), the conscience, feelings (other than their physical manifestation, they descriptions. Science can't measure before a specific point of the Big Bang's beginning - why, because there was a point in which there was no physical (yep, that's what physicists insist about the moments of the early universe).

The person I was responding to made the claim that science chooses not to look into the spiritual realm. I was pointing out that there are those who did choose to look, but they just didn't find anything.

Ken

Nice try Ken. You actually said:
The fact is, there just isn’t any evidence the spiritual realm exists; if there were, people would use the scientific method to study it.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Kenny
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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby Kenny » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:37 am

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Philip wrote:
The fact is, there just isn’t any evidence the spiritual realm exists; if there were, people would use the scientific method to study it.


Uh, Ken, what realm CAN the scientific method study? The PHYSICAL realm, correct? But the spiritual realm isn't physical - which is why they scientific method is inadequate as to the task. Now, the scientific method does reveal many astounding, immensely improbable things with unbelievably-thin margins, many mathematically improbable things coming into existence without an intelligent cause - things checking all the boxes for an origin of astounding intelligence - these science CAN measures. But they can't measure or prove the Source. It can't examine the soul, thoughts (other than electrical impulses), the conscience, feelings (other than their physical manifestation, they descriptions. Science can't measure before a specific point of the Big Bang's beginning - why, because there was a point in which there was no physical (yep, that's what physicists insist about the moments of the early universe).

The person I was responding to made the claim that science chooses not to look into the spiritual realm. I was pointing out that there are those who did choose to look, but they just didn't find anything.

Ken

Nice try Ken. You actually said:
The fact is, there just isn’t any evidence the spiritual realm exists; if there were, people would use the scientific method to study it.

Fair enough; allow me to rephrase.
Science has not found any evidence that the spiritual realm exists; if they did they would study it.

Ken

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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:24 am

Kenny wrote:
If I hire engineers and designers to design a house for me, then take those designs to a construction company with crew and pay them to build the house on my property, did I build that house? I was in control of it all, but did I actually build anything? Did I actually create anything?

Ken

PaulSacramento wrote:That would only really be relevant is someone said that EVERYTHING that is material comes from/is controlled by the immaterial.

No; it would be revenant if SOMETHINGS material are created by immaterial; which is what you seem to be claiming.

PaulSacramento wrote:No one said that.
What was point out was that the immaterial ( like a thought) and control the material ( like a body).
Oh! So now you are adding the body into it? Before you only said; conscious thought and imagination can create physical things; now are you agreeing with me that the body is required as well?


Sure.

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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby RickD » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:21 am

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Philip wrote:
The fact is, there just isn’t any evidence the spiritual realm exists; if there were, people would use the scientific method to study it.


Uh, Ken, what realm CAN the scientific method study? The PHYSICAL realm, correct? But the spiritual realm isn't physical - which is why they scientific method is inadequate as to the task. Now, the scientific method does reveal many astounding, immensely improbable things with unbelievably-thin margins, many mathematically improbable things coming into existence without an intelligent cause - things checking all the boxes for an origin of astounding intelligence - these science CAN measures. But they can't measure or prove the Source. It can't examine the soul, thoughts (other than electrical impulses), the conscience, feelings (other than their physical manifestation, they descriptions. Science can't measure before a specific point of the Big Bang's beginning - why, because there was a point in which there was no physical (yep, that's what physicists insist about the moments of the early universe).

The person I was responding to made the claim that science chooses not to look into the spiritual realm. I was pointing out that there are those who did choose to look, but they just didn't find anything.

Ken

Nice try Ken. You actually said:
The fact is, there just isn’t any evidence the spiritual realm exists; if there were, people would use the scientific method to study it.

Fair enough; allow me to rephrase.
Science has not found any evidence that the spiritual realm exists; if they did they would study it.

Ken

Kenny,

Only an idiot would try to hammer a nail with a plastic spoon.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby Justhuman » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:41 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Justhuman wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Justhuman wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Isn't it obvious? ;) If what we directly experience isn't formed by our brains, then such suggests this "seat of consciousness" which puts the fuller picture together of the world we experience is at least more than merely our brain.

Furthermore, I wouldn't merely suggest but argue strongly that the world, our world, isn't material only. It seems obvious to me it isn't and that an ontology of reality that is exclusively material/physical is rather naive, simplicistic, goes against common intuitions and wrong.

Before you jump the gun to relegate such a position (mine) to Christians, God-believers or the like, various respectible secular philosophers have also come out in agreement with such based upon rational arguments. So then, belief in "Materialism" doesn't necessarily boil to a Believer vs non-Believer issue.

I think the biggest problem with an immaterial 'anything' is its relation to material stuff.

Some (like Merleau-Ponty) believed it to be a false dichotemy to split the two, but believe there to be really one substance (body-subject) that possesses what we wrongly split into say "material" (body) and "immaterial" (mind) categories.

Perhaps such are correct, that there is really one substance possessing both material and immaterial properties. It could be that Materialists just look at the material side of things since they find it hard to see beyond what is directly physically experienced, and then those with more of a "spiritual spark" so-to-speak, have some kind of fascination with such, and so elevate their own subjective experiences. Somewhere inbetween, surely, there is a correct harmonisation of the two?

Yet, what if there is really only one substance? To borrow from Aristotle, a hylomorphism of sorts that is both "matter" and "form" / "material" and "immaterial" / "body" and "soul" which correctly understood is just one and the same substance. Modern Atheist philosophers like Thomas Nagel wish to posit that "Nature" itself is comprised also of some sort of "laws of consciousness" waiting to be discovered, in addition to the physical laws we better understand. Thus, if true, then there is no relationship issue at all -- because we are talking about the one and the same foundational substance.

Now, as for what I believe, I can appreciate the above position/s and am open to them. Yet, it doesn't matter here what I believe. What is significant is that many philosophers have put forward solutions to the material-immaterial issue (better understood as the "mind-body" issue) of how the two can "relate" and influence each other while appearing to be so diametrically different. So then, in a Philosophy 101 class where the "relationship problem" is presented as a surface-level objection against Substance Dualism, this issue might remain with students who do not do their research assignment on such and delve deeply into it. But, let me just say here, it is a surface-level objection and a great many solutions exist and have been proposed which would resolve this apparent dilemma (like the position/s presented above).

The one thing that remains, the issue which has entertained many great thinkers even until this day, is that the mind with its mental states appear to be qualititavely distinct from the brain or physical states. Given both exist, how are we to reconcile them together? Adhering to a simple Materialism seems to me woefully inadequate when explaining more experiential and subjective elements.

Well... You certainly keep me busy reading about different perspectives. Hard to follow all those alternatives and grasping what it really means.
However, to state that the material body and immaterial mind might be about the same substance means that it should be detectable. But are you now conjuring up some new substance, just to fill in the gap that presents itself? Shouldn't such a substance be allready (theoretically) known, amongst all fundamentall research?

What "gap" is presenting itself? It is actually well acknowledged by many rational thinkers in academia that the modern materialist approach doesn't simply have gaps, but fails to explain important mind-related features of our world -- consciousness, intentionality, meaning, and value.

Thomas Nagel (Atheist) argues this failure to account for something so integral to nature as mind is a major problem. It threatens to unravel the entire naturalistic world picture if not dealt with. His book, Mind and Cosmos, I believe represents an honest appraisal of where the mind-body issue is at today. His thinking will filter down, and I expect his call to deal with materialistic problems, will become more acknowledged in upcoming generations.

So to answer your question, I think you're barking up the wrong tree/s if you're tending towards thinking this is on par with some "God of the gaps" argument.

Further, I don't feel best to fill in any "gaps" in your knowledge on this issue, so would encourage you to investigate positions and the like further on your own -- keep an open mind (and heart) throughout your life as you discover and learn more. That's all I'd hope and recommend for you.

Indeed is "gap" not the right expression, but rather "adjusting a failing theory to suit a wanted outcome".
And, it is not you who is "conjuring up" such a new material, but it is an existing theory.
Sorry for those...

If one believes that mind/soul and matter are basically the same substance, but the mind/soul can also exist without a physical instantiation, that should be physically proveable, or at least physically verifiable. Furthermore it should be explained how it is possible that the mind/soul detaches itself from the physical part and how it can endure in it's non-physical state.

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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby Kenny » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:48 am

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Philip wrote:
Uh, Ken, what realm CAN the scientific method study? The PHYSICAL realm, correct? But the spiritual realm isn't physical - which is why they scientific method is inadequate as to the task. Now, the scientific method does reveal many astounding, immensely improbable things with unbelievably-thin margins, many mathematically improbable things coming into existence without an intelligent cause - things checking all the boxes for an origin of astounding intelligence - these science CAN measures. But they can't measure or prove the Source. It can't examine the soul, thoughts (other than electrical impulses), the conscience, feelings (other than their physical manifestation, they descriptions. Science can't measure before a specific point of the Big Bang's beginning - why, because there was a point in which there was no physical (yep, that's what physicists insist about the moments of the early universe).

The person I was responding to made the claim that science chooses not to look into the spiritual realm. I was pointing out that there are those who did choose to look, but they just didn't find anything.

Ken

Nice try Ken. You actually said:
The fact is, there just isn’t any evidence the spiritual realm exists; if there were, people would use the scientific method to study it.

Fair enough; allow me to rephrase.
Science has not found any evidence that the spiritual realm exists; if they did they would study it.

Ken

Kenny,

Only an idiot would try to hammer a nail with a plastic spoon.


I agree! But what does that have to do with the conversation at hand?

K

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Re: Why I am not an Atheist

Postby RickD » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:43 pm

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:The person I was responding to made the claim that science chooses not to look into the spiritual realm. I was pointing out that there are those who did choose to look, but they just didn't find anything.

Ken

Nice try Ken. You actually said:
The fact is, there just isn’t any evidence the spiritual realm exists; if there were, people would use the scientific method to study it.

Fair enough; allow me to rephrase.
Science has not found any evidence that the spiritual realm exists; if they did they would study it.

Ken

Kenny,

Only an idiot would try to hammer a nail with a plastic spoon.


I agree! But what does that have to do with the conversation at hand?

K

Kenny,

I was trying to make the point that using the wrong tool to do the job, doesn't work. Using a plastic spoon to hammer a nail, is like using science to find evidence of something that science doesn't deal with.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony


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